Shakugan no Shana II - Episode 4 Discussion / Poll

[grey_moon]

Hecate did spew out a lot of existence at the end of S1, maybe Konoe is a part of that existence that formed into a torch. So Konoe could be actually a child from the union of Yuji and Hecate, so Konoe would feel comfort from being near Yuji.

*edit*

scratch that, if she was a torch yuji would see it

[OverFunk]

Eh... Suddenly harem drama?

I must say Yuji is on his way of becoming powerful. But in love-related issues, he is as smart as Makoto. No seriously, being so close with Konoe, and not noticing at all about Shana and Kazumi. And for moments he didn't care.

But it could be that he's unconciously "attracted" to Konoe/Hecate(?), as one of the scenes at the park showed.

The only good thing I got out of this, were the lulz at the restaurant scene, and when they showed the difference in maturity between Shana and Kazumi. At least the latter knows about her feelings. Also, that Satou seems to be jealous of Yuji's training. I wonder if he knows that Yuji used the sword he couldn't lift.

Still, this show needs less drama and more action.

[stormy001_M1A2]

Nice episode. It is nice to see that the girls are not happy happy joy joy bunch. They have feelings and it shows.

The stakes in emotional battle is getting interesting. Let's see how the anime story render it.

[Sorrow-K]

Yes! This is the best harem ever!

Really enjoyed this episode. In fact, enjoying this season a lot more than the last. Hecate... I mean Konoe... is, ultimately, a plot device, but I certainly don't mind, since it's bringing the good stuff that's been kept in the undercurrent in most of the recent arcs to the fore, ie, the jealousy and frustration and pent up emotions of all the characters (even Yoshida). It does make for a really good love-rectangle, if only because there's so much emotion involved, but also because we're at the stage in the series where all the characters make sense, and we don't need things spoon fed to us anymore.

I like where this is going. The action stuff in this franchise doesn't oft keep me interested, but this stuff does. We have the pins all set up. Now all we need is progress.

[lua thien]

Just wait til Pheles shows up... oh wait, she's after the Reiji Maigo only.

I wonder if Yuji might sense that Konoe might be Hecate by merely looking into her eyes, which are windows to the soul. It's probably something that no Unrestricted Method or Guze Lord could interpret.

[Davidj]

Originally Posted by Wavedash

An average episode, but I loved seeing the competition in the restaurant. Why don't we see more humor from Satou? It certainly adds more dimension than his normal sullen self.

Konoe could be clinically retarded...perhaps it's a lingering effect of being humanized from Hecate? (total speculation)

Konoe is doing pretty well for someone who is only a few months old.

Something's ticking in the background, and I hope to find out what soon. Though if Hecate was blending into the human world, I think she wouldn't be so...naive about it. Innocence is cute and all, but she has the mind of a child. At least the basic set of survival skills should be there. Unless she's doing this to get Yuji, and I won't discount that. Crazy as it is.

I don't think Hecate would be capable of loving animals the way Konoe does.

[holyman282]

Originally Posted by grey_moon

I guess the reason I peg Shana and Yuji as having something of a relationship is because the end of S1 imho they skipped all the boring stuff like confessing, snogging and shagging and went straight for the I'll give up my life for you. That left a huge impact on me and S2 kinda trivialised what I thought was a momentous and touching set of scenes. One thing that does come to mind is maybe what is happening to Shana and Yuji is the same thing as what is happening with our discussion. Maybe Shana thinks "hey I gave up my life for you, we should have something special going on between us". Whilst Yuji is thinking "hey where is the confession, without it I have no idea how you are thinking"... Actually in all fairness to Yuji I personally always say that women should come out and say what they think as most men are stupid and cannot read their minds

Confessing, may be the "boring" stuff as you say but it's an important step to developing a relationship. By skipping it, they have essentially started their relationship on a bad footing, it's like learning to walk before you can crawl.

As that is the case, we are now having Shana angry because of Yuji's attachment towards Konoe and Yuji who can't understand why Shana's angry. If they did all the confessing deal early on like what Yoshida did, then none of this would of happened.

[grey_moon]

Originally Posted by holyman282

Confessing, may be the "boring" stuff as you say but it's an important step to developing a relationship. By skipping it, they have essentially started their relationship on a bad footing, it's like learning to walk before you can crawl.

As that is the case, we are now having Shana angry because of Yuji's attachment towards Konoe and Yuji who can't understand why Shana's angry. If they did all the confessing deal early on like what Yoshida did, then none of this would of happened.

Their relationship in S2 only ended up the way it did because of the writers decision to change history. If there wasn't the Back to the Future change in history there actually is a confession, where Yuji tells Shana he decided a long time ago he would go with her and Shana tells Yuji clearly that she loves him.

Personally I wish the writers stood up to the challenge of writing SnS and came up with some novel ways to introduce new love challengers without needing to change history. In most parts I have enjoyed their depiction of the characters, it is just Yuji where I find some of his actions not consistent with the way he has been built up.

[holyman282]

I'm a bit confused as to what you mean by change history, but clearly a relationship lacking a confession will only see disaster especially when up against another girl who has confessed and a green haired girl who may or may not have synchronised with the said male.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Okay, I did not like this episode very much at all and I'll try to describe why very quickly since I'm in a hurry. For one, it uses the old "Seemingly innocent girl shows up who might be an enemy and gains the full attention of the lead male" gimmick and it executes it quite poorly. For one thing it portrays Yuji as an absolute idiot who does realize that he's all but ignoring Shana's affections (cause we all know that men are complete idiots who can't read into the obvious) and not only that, to add insult to industry it makes the whole episode about it and constantly beats us over the head with Yuji's inability to see the obvious "What's wrong with Shana" "Yuji, Stop following Konoe-San Around" "Shana Your Rougher Than Usual Today, What's Going On?". So it doubles up on assuming it's male audience is too stupid to figure out "what women want", AND to figure out that the plot is about "what women want". DURRRRRR! I'm a stupid 15-40 Viewer Demographic, I don't know what going on Durrrrrrr! Yeaaaaaaaaaaaah. And not only that, but that's pretty much the plot of this episode, this School Days like script of jealousy and passion. The season might as well just end with Shana carving up Yuji, Yoshida killing Shana in revenge with some acquired tool and Hecate cackling all the way how she destroyed her enemies from the inside out by playing the Moeblob card. Of course I'm kidding (I hope) and the series will hopefully get off this track soon.

For now though, Shana too blends into the harem pool this season.

The characters were also more inconsistent in this episode then any other one so far I think.

I flipped a coin actually to see whether it got a 5 or 4 because I didn't know which way to lean and it gets a 5 in the end, but grudgingly so as I really dislike this episode. Klashy is apparently even more disappointed then I am so people can read what he has to say at the usual place when the time comes.

[grey_moon]

Originally Posted by holyman282

I'm a bit confused as to what you mean by change history, but clearly a relationship lacking a confession will only see disaster especially when up against another girl who has confessed and a green haired girl who may or may not have synchronised with the said male.

Well in S1 epi 24, after Shana threw herself in the way of her mentors spear to save Yuji. That was the first giving up of life for another. When Shana is about to sacrifice herself to save the city and Yuji says that he long ago decided to go with her. Now this may or may not be a confession, but added with the fact that he was going to step into certain death with her I think it makes it a very strong expression of love (especially by the laws of Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei). Right before they step through the portal thing Shana clearly tells Yuji she loves him, which Yuji responds to by smiling. Skip forward to S2 epi1 suddenly Yuji is suffering from deafness and didn't hear a thing. That to me is a huge change in history and makes it so much easier for them to set up their love square.

@Kaioshin_Sama - Love the sig!

[holyman282]

Actually I felt in S1 that Yuji decided to give her life for shana because she risked her life for him. Also Yuji's altruistic character meant that he's basically a martyr that would give his life for anyone.. What makes me come to this conclusion? Well during S1 we saw that Yuji was willing to use his own power of existence to save the class when attacked by Friagne. In other words you can't be sure whether Yuji's "risking his life" deal is because he cares about Shana, or if he was on one of his morally self sacrificing attitude. Of course I believe it's the former, but you can't base your idea of them developing a romantic relationship based on that. Certainly they've became closer but not as a couple.

Also that smile in ep 24 was a bit too ambiguous for anyone to be certain whether Yuji heard Shana or not. This really comes down to what the writer decides, you can yell as much as you want saying that Yuji definitely head Shana confess, but if the writer says otherwise then it's not true.

[serenade_beta]

Originally Posted by Davidj

Konoe is doing pretty well for someone who is only a few months old.

Eh? She's in high school.

[grey_moon]

Originally Posted by holyman282

Actually I felt in S1 that Yuji decided to give her life for shana because she risked her life for him. Also Yuji's altruistic character meant that he's basically a martyr that would give his life for anyone.. What makes me come to this conclusion? Well during S1 we saw that Yuji was willing to use his own power of existence to save the class when attacked by Friagne. In other words you can't be sure whether Yuji's "risking his life" deal is because he cares about Shana, or if he was on one of his morally self sacrificing attitude. Of course I believe it's the former, but you can't base your idea of them developing a romantic relationship based on that. Certainly they've became closer but not as a couple.

Also that smile in ep 24 was a bit too ambiguous for anyone to be certain whether Yuji heard Shana or not. This really comes down to what the writer decides, you can yell as much as you want saying that Yuji definitely head Shana confess, but if the writer says otherwise then it's not true.

Yuji was a martyr in the early stages of S1 because he thought he was going to burn out and be forgotten. He wanted the rest of his life force to be used to save everyone so a part of him would be left behind used to for something he deems useful. The end of epi 24 he could have tried to run away from the summoning, but instead he chooses to walk hand in hand with Shana. He didn't need to do that, he wasn't required to be there to help Shana summon Alastor, he went because in his own words he choose to go with Shana a long time ago.

Actually I think this studio is starting to get a bit of a habit of having continuity slips from S1 to S2, all I can say is thank goodness it wasn't as bad as ZnT.

Watch epi 24 again, you will see they display Shana from Yuji's perception so if at the time he didn't hear it, we shouldn't have heard it too. S1 to S2 is just plain bad story telling no matter how you dress it up.

[holyman282]

Meh, this debate could go on for a while, so all i'm going to say is perhaps Yuji is clueless towards Shana's feelings, but i feel it's more a mutual misunderstanding that caused this.

As for S2 i'm enjoying it quite a bit and certainly there is nothing to complain about in terms of how they chose to portray the relationship between, Shana/Yuji/Yoshida/Konoe..

[Klashikari]

^ That was the retcon creating some ruckus back in episode 1.
Seriously, this episode was "Meh". It was really like a "filler" to me. Not that I expect "action action action" for Shana, as the characters and interactions development are very important, but the execution and the meaningness of this episode were really poor.

Retcon of the episode 1 aside, Kaioshin_sama actually nailed the biggest issue in this episode: Yuuji's density. This was beyond ridiculous in various instances as he was able to figure something is wrong, but cannot tell what is the problem... I mean... he was able to think Shana would kiss him in season 1, and he was even thinking Shana tried to confess.
It is bordeline stupid with Yuuji actually seeing how Shana is VERY annoyed that he is with Hecate.

The interactions in this episode were not exactly thrilling nor meaningful (and it is hardly the first time Yuuji had to deal with Shana's jealousy).
A very disappointing episode to say the least. (not so willing to do the summary of this one huh...)

[Skyfall]

Originally Posted by holyman282

Also that smile in ep 24 was a bit too ambiguous for anyone to be certain whether Yuji heard Shana or not. This really comes down to what the writer decides, you can yell as much as you want saying that Yuji definitely head Shana confess, but if the writer says otherwise then it's not true.

Actually, it is far more stupid than that ... because now they actually showed us the explosion happening before Shana actually said her last words, while she clearly did the last season. The whole whopping love triangle (rectangle?) rides on this clumsy plothole. Have him reject her because he needs time to think or something if they must, but not turn the whole thing in something inconsistent. In short the writers had written themselves in a corner, and the only way out of those is usually not pretty.

As for this episode ... it was rather poor and filler-like. Yuji's sudden attraction to Konoe aside, i really don't like what they are doing with his character, as the amount of density he displays towards Shana is rather overwhelming. He has shown himself to be rather sharp, at times even where relationships are concerned ... and i don't appreciate the writers adjusting his density to levels that are required for their forced drama at specific moment.

Now, if i pretend i forget for a second that writers are jerking Yuji by strings ... actually, both Yuji and Shana are somewhat at fault here. Yuji for being as dense as a rock (Shana's hints are fairly obvious), and Shana for letting this drag on ... a few words of confirmation from her and we could end all this. Yuji obviously likes her (He even looked like he was ready to jump for joy when he got a few words of acknowledgment from Shana after their training ) and Shana obviously likes him ... why the writers chose to artificially extend the love triangle i am not sure, but the manner in which it is done is somewhat clumsy.

Lastly - someone should tell Konoe (or better yet - the writer) she has just subjected the little bird to a crueler fate than being eaten by a cat, because she touched it.

Ironically, the dinner in restaurant was the best part of this episode. 5/10

As for Konoe - i think it is undeniable she is some sort of a human doll created by Hecate for whatever reason ... Yuji's attachment to her means setting up some drama material when it turns out her time is limited or something of the sort I hope Margery isn't permanently bound to the sofa as well, as i would love to see her doing something more active

[holyman282]

Originally Posted by Skyfall

Now, if i pretend i forget for a second that writers are jerking Yuji by strings ... actually, both Yuji and Shana are somewhat at fault here. Yuji for being as dense as a rock (Shana's hints are fairly obvious), and Shana for letting this drag on ... a few words of confirmation from her and we could end all this. Yuji obviously likes her (He even looked like he was ready to jump for joy when he got a few words of acknowledgment from Shana after their training ) and Shana obviously likes him ... why the writers chose to artificially extend the love triangle i am not sure, but the manner in which it is done is somewhat clumsy.

That is what i believe and will stick to, it's a mutual misunderstanding that puts them into those situations.

Lastly - someone should tell Konoe (or better yet - the writer) she has just subjected the little bird to a crueler fate than being eaten by a cat, because she touched it.

I guess you don't really like Konoe?

Also reguarding the matter of the little inconsistency with S1 and S2, it's just that little. I'm sure many people wouldn't even of noticed were it not for this ep. also reguarding that scene, not matter how it played out, Yuji's and Shana's relationship didn't change much near the end of S1 anyway as we see then going to school as per usual only now Yoshida and Shana are rivals.

The only reason i can see for people nitpicking this ep apart is because they are fans of Shana and like what a few people said, "when shana's sad we're all sad". Off course i'm not condemning those reactions from people, just that their opinions of this ep is a bit biased because of it and certainly they shouldn't base their judgment on that alone.

I really don't find this love square thing forced, in fact it seemed pretty natural, with Konoe's introduction adding to the mystery of the Bal Masque as well as a plot device to strain shana's and Yuji's relationship.

It's also interesting that no one blamed yoshida at all for the first 3 ep for making Shana jealous on several occasions, it's only when Konoe appeared that people began to critisise the "forced love square" and the inconsistencies of the show between S1 and S2

[Skyfall]

I complained about the inconsistencies starting in ep1 And i see it as a major one, not small. The whole situation with the relationships we have now is a result of it.

Originally Posted by holyman282

I guess you don't really like Konoe?

Not really, aside from being brain-dead she is a moeblob I wasn't implying a dislike with that line - try picking up a baby bird that has fallen out of a nest and put it back and see what happens. The parents will simply throw it out of the nest. Thats what happens if a human touches the little birds.

What i dislike about this ep is not Shana being sad, but what i perceive as poor writing. Have him go sleep with Kozue and ditch Shana and i will be fine with it, as long as such a development comes around naturally and doesn't rely on forced devices to come about. (season 1 inconsistency and varying level of density )

I am blaming the writers for this, not any of the characters

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by holyman282

I guess you don't really like Konoe?

Not, that's not it. When you touch a little bird, its parents will abandon it. plain and simple. That's why this scene is simply unnatural at all (which conflict with Konoe's "human" nature)

The only reason i can see for people nitpicking this ep apart is because they are fans of Shana and like what a few people said, "when shana's sad we're all sad". Off course i'm not condemning those reactions from people, just that their opinions of this ep is a bit biased because of it and certainly they shouldn't base their judgment on that alone.

Absolutely not. I don't exactly mind if they are able to pull another "love" interest. The problem is the complete shift in the execution because Konoe's presence is simply forced and not following the flow of the "romance" of this series.

I really don't find this love square thing forced, in fact it seemed pretty natural, with Konoe's introduction adding to the mystery of the Bal Masque as well as a plot device to strain shana's and Yuji's relationship.

It is forced because Yuuji density is completely out of the blue. Even with the start of the season 2, he was imagining Shana confessing to him, but the lack of evidence made him giving up the idea.
Lots of hints of season 1 proves that Yuuji isn't a brickhead, and even mentioned that he was the one who treated her "just a flame haze", aknowledging that SHana doesn't see him as a torch/mystes, but much more importantly.

That's why Yuuji is completely irrealist in this episode, because his thickness is quite impossible.

It's also interesting that no one blamed yoshida at all for the first 3 ep for making Shana jealous on several occasions, it's only when Konoe appeared that people began to critisise the "forced love square" and the inconsistencies of the show between S1 and S2

That's because Kazumi acts accordinggly to her position. She doesn't impose herself, and helps out despite being a mere human. She knows her rival feelings, and thus she doesn't play dumb either.

meanwhile, konoe is just a hair in the soup, popping from nowhere, forcing a clinging on Yuuji who doesn't care much of the 2 other girls harboring CLEAR jealousy behaviour.
Konoe's presence is just simply forced and not exactly following the flow, as they are trying to use a lame attempt of "hecate synchronization", which has hardly anything to do with Yuuji's feelings. If anything, he shouldn't even be attracted by her.
Konoe itself isn't the problem. it is rather the execution and the very bad scripting.