AnoHana - Episode 4 Discussion / Poll

[Triple_R]

I liked this episode a lot, but my views are similar to Reckoner's.

Each episode so far shines wonderfully in a vacuum, but the cumulative effect of them, for me at least, is that the emotional impact is gradually lessening. And that's ironically because there's just too much of it. Too much of Menma crying, and too much strenuously sustained sentimentality. It does feel a little bit forced to me, and I find myself growing a bit numb to it all.

That being said, I love how brisk the plot movement is, and the reveal involving Yukiatsu is both interesting and, I have to admit, a bit amusing (primarily due to its excellent execution). This group of friends are all very psychologically fascinating, really.

8/10 for this episode.


On the whole, AnoHana remains a superb slice of life drama, and I am looking forward to more.

[Ascaloth]

Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo

This would be interesting, but how can she be a hallucination when at least two people who cannot see her and have no idea she is "there" have felt her weight?

I vaguely remember some Japanese superstition that the spirits of dead people can weigh on a living person's shoulders, or something to that effect, thus my hypothesis. Anyone more familiar with Japanese beliefs can back me up on this?

Originally Posted by Johnny

Agree with the poster above that if she was just an hallucination then how can they feel her weight. Plus the bread she made...

Well from my POV, there's still nothing in AnoHana so far which rules out 'Unreliable Narrator'. It's still entirely possible the failmuffins were made by Jintan all along, and what we're seeing is a continuation of his delusions.

After all, I do remember at least one scene in a previous episode where Menma seemed to scarf down a piece of BBQed meat right in front of Poppo, and the latter didn't notice. So yeah. Great unanswered question.

[germanturkey]

what the shit. Yukiatsu has some problems.. 'nuff said. i'm still annoyed by Jintan's attitude. yeah, he has mental issues, but he's still annoying to watch as a main character. i wouldn't go as far as to say he has entitlement issues because of his circumstance, but he's nearly there.

[Malkuth]

Originally Posted by Ascaloth

I vaguely remember some Japanese superstition that the spirits of dead people can weigh on a living person's shoulders, or something to that effect, thus my hypothesis. Anyone more familiar with Japanese beliefs can back me up on this?

I remember an american horror flick about it, set in Tokyo, in between

Originally Posted by Ascaloth

Well from my POV, there's still nothing in AnoHana so far which rules out 'Unreliable Narrator'. It's still entirely possible the failmuffins were made by Jintan all along, and what we're seeing is a continuation of his delusions.

After all, I do remember at least one scene in a previous episode where Menma seemed to scarf down a piece of BBQed meat right in front of Poppo, and the latter didn't notice. So yeah. Great unanswered question.

As I said, it would be really cool if the anime shows Jintan's PoV, and he is indeed delusional, some of my favourite movies and novels did it, but it's unlikely NoitaminA et al

Originally Posted by germanturkey

what the shit. Yukiatsu has some problems.. 'nuff said. i'm still annoyed by Jintan's attitude. yeah, he has mental issues, but he's still annoying to watch as a main character. i wouldn't go as far as to say he has entitlement issues because of his circumstance, but he's nearly there.

Social hypocrisy, anyone Nice touch, but all too common or should I say a requirement in lawful societies

Anyway, thinking about Tsuruko, she is quite a bitch, first snubbing her childhood friends (Jinta and Anaru), and then ridiculing Yukiatsu, who trusted her (his character taken into account, secretive and all). I'm looking forward into how they'll remedy that in the comming episodes.

Oh! and I wish they stop calling Naruko anal, I mean come on... now, we even have fan-art to go with that nickname

[Triple_R]

On the question "Is the Menma that Jinta's seeing an actual ghost/spirit, or a creation of his psyche?":

From Episodes 1 to 3, I was pretty convinced that it was an actual ghost/spirit. That this really was Menma. The main reason being that we saw scenes of Menma where she wasn't with Jinta.

After Episode 4, though, I'm not so sure.

The main reason being that I found it kind of weird how Jinta's "Menma" was so excited at the prospect of finding Yukiatsu's "Menma".

Trying to imagine myself as an actual ghost... even as a ghost, I think I'd be kind of weirded out at the notion that somebody was impersonating me after my death, or that there was another "me" out there that wasn't, well, me. .

I certainly wouldn't be pumped at the idea of seeing this post-death impersonator of me.

But then, I'm not a kid, so maybe that's a factor.


Still, the idea of Jinta's "Menma" being something of a psychological projection for him, a symbolic representation of his lingering attachment to Menma and feelings of regret and nostalgia pertaining to her, now seems at least possible to me.

It doesn't account for everything - such as the incredibly odd coincidence that Jinta's 'psychological projection' would just happen to be hopping on Poppo while a coffee is giving him a real bad case of the shakes - but I can see it fitting most things. For example, it's possible that Jinta himself made the failmuffins, and just attributed it to "Menma".

One thing I do find interesting about this interpretation is that if Jinta's "Menma" is a symbolic psychological projection of his own lingering attachment to Menma, it would make perfect sense for Jinta's "Menma" to want to see the real one.


All of this is pretty deep and psychobabble-y I know, but I just thought I'd put it out there.

[FlareKnight]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

On the question "Is the Menma that Jinta's seeing an actual ghost/spirit, or a creation of his psyche?":

From Episodes 1 to 3, I was pretty convinced that it was an actual ghost/spirit. That this really was Menma. The main reason being that we saw scenes of Menma where she wasn't with Jinta.

After Episode 4, though, I'm not so sure.

The main reason being that I found it kind of weird how Jinta's "Menma" was so excited at the prospect of finding Yukiatsu's "Menma".

Trying to imagine myself as an actual ghost... even as a ghost, I think I'd be kind of weirded out at the notion that somebody was impersonating me after my death, or that there was another "me" out there that wasn't, well, me. .

I certainly wouldn't be pumped at the idea of seeing this post-death impersonator of me.

But then, I'm not a kid, so maybe that's a factor.


Still, the idea of Jinta's "Menma" being something of a psychological projection for him, a symbolic representation of his lingering attachment to Menma and feelings of regret and nostalgia pertaining to her, now seems at least possible to me.

It doesn't account for everything - such as the incredibly odd coincidence that Jinta's 'psychological projection' would just happen to be hopping on Poppo while a coffee is giving him a real bad case of the shakes - but I can see it fitting most things. For example, it's possible that Jinta himself made the failmuffins, and just attributed it to "Menma".

One thing I do find interesting about this interpretation is that if Jinta's "Menma" is a symbolic psychological projection of his own lingering attachment to Menma, it would make perfect sense for Jinta's "Menma" to want to see the real one.


All of this is pretty deep and psychobabble-y I know, but I just thought I'd put it out there.

Think we do have to take into account that Menma is a bit odd. Plus she doesn't really understand her own existence so can she be sure that she's the only Menma? Plus even it was something strange like that if there was another one like her then she might feel less alone. Sure she can interact with Jinta, but not being the only one like her would probably be comforting in a way.

I'm not against the possibility of the psychological debate, but I'm still believing completely with the ghost theory. The reactions of characters she has interacted with are pretty good. Plus the whole scene at her own home would be even more odd if she was just Jinta's hallucination.

[lahfielxi]

It's not just the weight on shoulders. Temperature drop/chills observed on two occasions also are associated with ghosts.

It still seems like the most obvious thing to me.

[Guardian Enzo]

I still think this is ultimately the wrong question. The anime isn't about paranormal research - it's about the impact Menma had in the past and continues to have on all of the Busters (especially Jinta). Who knows for sure, but it's very possible you're setting yourselves up for disappointment if you expect the show to ever spell out just exactly what Menma is.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

I still think this is ultimately the wrong question. The anime isn't about paranormal research - it's about the impact Menma had in the past and continues to have on all of the Busters (especially Jinta). Who knows for sure, but it's very possible you're setting yourselves up for disappointment if you expect the show to ever spell out just exactly what Menma is.

You're very right, but the effect of what Memma is I think can skew perspective on this show quite a bit.

Lets say she is a ghost. That means she's a very convenient plot device to drive Jintan and friends together rather than they naturally come together. It's a fairy tale like ending literally.

But on the hand, if she is simple his hallucination, Jinta's pain, then it's a whole different ball park. This means that everyone of her desires and wishes are things Jintan projects onto what he thinks of Memma. When he probably apologizes to her, he will release the guilt within him and she'll most likely disappear (Well that and probably the clearance of the friend's consciences too).

Very different type of story depending on how we are supposed to interpret her. Forgive me if I didn't explain it well though, frankly I'm exhausted at the moment.

[darkmanure]

I agree with that. I'm not expecting her to prove herself at all. I actually don't want her to prove herself. I want the group to believe in him without the proof that he can see Menma. It'll be better for the character development and it'll be much more entertaining.

Having her prove herself will result in boring drama or lack of it. I bet most of them will just ask what Menma wanted and have Jinta relay her message and how the hell would the other characters grow in that situation?

[MeoTwister5]

I'd have to say that for almost all intents and purposes, Menma has been more of an observer to the lives of her friends rather than the one who moves things along. While her sudden appearance to Jinta ultimately put him on the road where he is now, and trying to get his other friends to travel said road, everything from that point on has been Jinta's actions and prerogatives.

To make a Cross Game comparison (that many of us have been doing here already), Wakaba was a prime mover for both characters, however while her lasting influence was what put them on the road, the desire to keep traveling it was ultimately Kou and Aoba's choice. The difference here is that Menma has a viewable presence with a small bit of influence only for Jinta, and everyone else aren't directly influenced by her. In CG it's really up to the viewer's personal beliefs whether Wakaba was "watching" them. In both cases it's the same: the influence of those who have passed on beforehand remain that, an influence, and the actions are almost entirely up to those who have taken it to themselves to carry on the memory.

Anyway great episode that really fleshes out just how different each character's coping mechanisms are. Some are more mature about it (Poppo) while others quite obviously have gotten some pretty messed up psychological scars (Jinta, Yukiatsu). One can say that Jinta isn't that far behind Yukiatsu if he doesn't watch himself. As the scene where he catches Anaru just a few feet away from where Menma herself died so many years ago, it shows that it is perhaps the most isolated and cautious of minds that are the most fragile minds of all.

[coderlan]

Spoiler:

Yukiatsu is obsessed with Menma - Tsuruko proved this by saying "You can't forget about her. You're forever obsessed with her. You're pathetic." to Jintan and then adding "Yukiatsu was talking about himself when he said that."

[guuchan]

Originally Posted by lahfielxi

It's not just the weight on shoulders. Temperature drop/chills observed on two occasions also are associated with ghosts.

It still seems like the most obvious thing to me.

This show is kind of told from Jinta's PoV, so those "hints" could be purposefully misleading. Maybe Poppo just happened to feel a chill; maybe Tsuruko just suddenly got a shoulder pain; maybe Jinta made the bread himself all along. We don't know at this point.

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

I still think this is ultimately the wrong question. The anime isn't about paranormal research - it's about the impact Menma had in the past and continues to have on all of the Busters (especially Jinta). Who knows for sure, but it's very possible you're setting yourselves up for disappointment if you expect the show to ever spell out just exactly what Menma is.

I was saying that on IRC yesterday, that the show might just end with Jinta being not able to tell whether the Menma was his hallucination or a real ghost. Which means:

• Menma will disappear; and
• In the end no one else other than Jinta can see Menma after all, but very likely they will feel her presence before she disappears.

At this point, it doesn't really matter anymore though whether Menma is a hallucination or a real ghost. She's already serving a purpose, they will find out what her wish was, fullfil it, and she will disappear, either as a hallucination or a real ghost. I'm tending to believe Menma is the former case though after episode 4 as mentioned in my previous post.

[FireChick]

Wow! This episode was just downright awesome!!

But...

Spoiler:

Oh my God...Yukiatsu...WHAT THE FREAK!!! Okay, I must confess, I felt VERY uncomfortable watching Yukiatsu get caught like that. Boys dressing like a girl are one thing (don't get me wrong, I absolutely loved Wandering Son), but a teenage boy dressing up as his DEAD girl friend? Honestly, that's going a bit too far. He needs therapy. BIG time.

But even so, I want to see what happens in the next episode! I don't want to wait another week!

[cherrycolaz]

Menma is a ghost. She can't be a hallucination. Reason:

In episode one (at 20:05), we could see her visit her own family's home and accidentally knock down a glass of water on the table. Hallucinations can't do that.
Secondly, she baked those muffins. Yet again, not something hallucinations can do.
Thirdly, as we saw in episode 4, she jumped on Poppo and he could feel her weight. Can people actually feel a hallucination's weight? Nope. Unless it's a ghost.

These things points to the fact that Menma, in fact, is a ghost. Though I don't know why only Jintan can see her. I'm quite sure it's because she told him about her wish? And that only he knows about it and can fulfill it. Yet he forgot about it and so did she... so the anime is basically about finding out about the wish and fulfilling it, and once it's been fulfilled, everybody can see Menma. THE END. Happy ending. Yay.

[guuchan]

Originally Posted by cherrycolaz

These things points to the fact that Menma, in fact, is a ghost. Though I don't know why only Jintan can see her. I'm quite sure it's because she told him about her wish? And that only he knows about it and can fulfill it. Yet he forgot about it and so did she... so the anime is basically about finding out about the wish and fulfilling it, and once it's been fulfilled, everybody can see Menma. THE END. Happy ending. Yay.

When you see a ghost, everything you see is the ghost's doing; when others can't see it, all they see are accidents, or even just natural phenomenons really. We, the audience, are put in the PoV of former case. As I said though, it doesn't really matter whether she's a hallucination or a ghost. But I just can't buy that happy ending you described; I know it sounds good, but I will be both rationally and emotionally disappointed if the story does end with everyone living happily ever after with a ghost and then medetashi medetashi.

[CWW]

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

One can say that Jinta isn't that far behind Yukiatsu if he doesn't watch himself.

Why is that? Because he can see Menma? Because he doesn't go to school? Because Anaru's tripping made him remember of unpleasant things in the past?

His mother and best friend passed away suddenly. You can't simply forget them and move on, even when five years have passed. He has every reason to mope around. He is trying his best now to come out of his shell (with a little help from Menma) and for that he should be applauded, not criticized.

Yukiatsu is an entirely dfferent matter. He can't let go of the past, not because he doesn't want to, but because his mind refuses to. To make things worse, he has a superiority complex. There may be other reasons behind it, such as his relationship with his parents, but it's clear that he has much, much bigger issues than Jinta.

Assuming Jinta isn't schizophrenic. I don't think they're going for that route though. I sense optimism rather than Fight Club-esque plot twists.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

You're very right, but the effect of what Memma is I think can skew perspective on this show quite a bit.

Lets say she is a ghost. That means she's a very convenient plot device to drive Jintan and friends together rather than they naturally come together. It's a fairy tale like ending literally.

But on the hand, if she is simple his hallucination, Jinta's pain, then it's a whole different ball park. This means that everyone of her desires and wishes are things Jintan projects onto what he thinks of Memma. When he probably apologizes to her, he will release the guilt within him and she'll most likely disappear (Well that and probably the clearance of the friend's consciences too).

Very different type of story depending on how we are supposed to interpret her. Forgive me if I didn't explain it well though, frankly I'm exhausted at the moment.

Maybe it coukld be both? That Menma is a ghost of the real Menma but it's Jinta's pain that brought her in the real world.

[Anh_Minh]

To whoever said Yukiatsu was crossdressing: good catch.

(Am I the only one who laughed despite knowing it was more pathetic than ridiculous? Kinda felt bad, but couldn't help it.)

Originally Posted by Malkuth

Anyway, thinking about Tsuruko, she is quite a bitch, first snubbing her childhood friends (Jinta and Anaru), and then ridiculing Yukiatsu, who trusted her (his character taken into account, secretive and all). I'm looking forward into how they'll remedy that in the comming episodes.

I don't remember her snubbing Jinta. She was rather distant, yes, but so was Jinta.

As for Anaru, she was angry at her. Some would say "unfairly", but as far as I'm concerned, it's "understandably".

And yes, she did betray Yukiatsu, in a way. Though it's not like he told her he was crossdressing - he was using her as a cover so as to not appear creepy when buying female accessories and the like. But to come back to Tsuruko - I think her intentions were good. (And that, bottom line, she made the right choice.) Hilarious as Yukiatsu's activities were to us, they weren't healthy. They were hurting to himself and the rest of the Busters. And, more importantly to her, they're a symptom of his inability to move forward, which has to be confronted, too.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

the effect of what Memma is I think can skew perspective on this show quite a bit.

I agree with this. However, I don't agree with your take on how that changes the perspective on this show.

Lets say she is a ghost. That means she's a very convenient plot device to drive Jintan and friends together rather than they naturally come together. It's a fairy tale like ending literally.

I disagree. If Menma is a ghost then she's not a "very convenient plot device", but rather an actual character, with her own goals, independence, and personality. As an actual character, and a central one at that, she is legitimately playing a key role in bringing the gang back together.

If the Menma that Jinta is seeing is a ghost, then this is as much about her as it is about the rest of the gang. In other words, this is partly about her personally moving on, Angel Beats! style.

In fact, if Menma is a ghost, this is arguably more her story than anybody else's. In many ways, she becomes the focal character, and the main plot mover.

But on the hand, if she is simply his hallucination, Jinta's pain, then it's a whole different ball park. This means that everyone of her desires and wishes are things Jintan projects onto what he thinks of Memma. When he probably apologizes to her, he will release the guilt within him and she'll most likely disappear (Well that and probably the clearance of the friend's consciences too).

I don't think it's quite that simple.

If Jinta's Menma is a hallucination then he is very, very psychologically disturbed. Somewhat ironically, I would find this anime much darker if Jinta's Menma is a hallucination than if she's a ghost. I mean, you have to be very psychological disturbed to have daily hallucinations on this level.

Also, if Jinta's Menma is a hallucination then this story isn't really about her, per se, but rather about the rest of the gang (Jinta and Yukiatsu in particular) trying to get over her lost. In other words, it's not about fulfilling her wish, whatever that may be, but rather about Jinta et al learning to leave their past behind and finally deal with the lost of Menma, and psychologically heal from it.