2010-04-20, 14:44 | Link #8521 |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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Oh I'm more talking about the explanation for that scene really. I admit I have no idea who Beatrice 2 is so I'm not supposing a who here. I just think that scene suggests whoever it was had amnesia.
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2010-04-20, 14:45 | Link #8522 | |||||||
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
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Jessica: "A community of girls with the wrong impressions can be scary. They could have some secret feud behind your back, and hurt someone or make them cry without you noticing it, right?" Quote:
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To Gohda, both Kanon and Shannon are competitors for the honor he thinks he deserves, the one wing and the chance to personally serve Kinzo his meals. Not ones to attempt direct action against - he's not a bad person if the text is any indication - but ones to watch. Not just 'a boy in one point at time'. So yes, the chance he might guess that they are the same person is high. The chance that he would say it out loud is not. But the chance he would be paranoid of either specifically - or alternatively, specially conscious of someone who lost a sibling if he did not notice - is high. Quote:
It's hard to argue if we fundamentally can't accept each other's arguments, so for the moment, we will just have to agree to disagree until either of us can present sufficiently new arguments. I'm looking for ones both for my side of the argument and for yours. I ask that you please do not consider your job is done and so too.
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2010-04-20, 14:58 | Link #8523 | |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
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The timing here is also an interesting issue. When Rosa starts her story, she is unable to precisely time it. Rudolf offers 20 years ago, and Rosa agrees immediately and then is more certain, as she cites the number later like it's nothing. In the end of the scene, Beatrice-2 dies, and Battler's narration is so certain that she has to be dead that he repeats it several times with harsher and harsher words. But when Ronove shares a batch of red about 1967 he explicitly says '19 years ago' several times. If Rosa's flashback did happen exactly as presented, than Rudolf has to be wrong about the timing because '19 years ago' is one year later. But what if Rosa is wrong about the level of damage and Rudolf is correct about the timing?
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2010-04-20, 15:00 | Link #8524 | ||
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Edit: Rudolf only says about 20 years. They never get more specific than that, and of course a guess would be rounded off to the decade. I don't think the year is a real problem here.
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2010-04-20, 15:02 | Link #8525 |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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@Oliver: For some reason Rosa says to Evatrice "are you going to say your Beatrice!? That's impossible you died 19 years ago!!." In the fantasy scene. So to Rosa it happens around the same time Natsuhi's event happened. I even suggested before that the person who fell of the cliff was really a pregnant servant and was literally "carrying a baby" and that the servant falling down the stairs and being injured was a cover story.
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2010-04-20, 15:42 | Link #8526 | ||
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
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As a side note, have you noticed that Beatrice seems to love the number 19? 19 years ago is the scene that she shows Battler which Ronove later confirms as genuine. 19th person on Rokkenjima that she exonerates with this scene as being dead at the time. And there's something in Ep6 saying that "19 is the age of the true master of this world" if my spoiler memory serves me right. Quote:
However, while they refer to the 'fence', that's the only time a fence of any kind is mentioned, particularly by a cliff, while there's a lovely staircase with railings inside the mansion itself, perfect for falling... Which would dissociate it from Rosa's story, but Rosa's story is vague enough as it is. Collating the timing statements on this story and potentially related incidents, here's what I get, and some of it might be interesting:
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2010-04-20, 17:27 | Link #8527 | |
Senior Member
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What about this? Erika washed up on the island, barely alive. She died almost immediately. The person count was raised because she appeared alive, but is dead for the events of Episodes 5 and 6. |
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2010-04-20, 18:40 | Link #8528 | |
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Join Date: May 2009
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That said, I think it probable that there are at least two Beatrices. I see no reason to think this precludes there being more, though it is unlikely that there are more than one or two people physically posing as Beatrice. Any more and it becomes a farce (any more even non-physically and it gets close). We should also avoid assuming that Beatrice = Female and automatically turn our eyes to our various favorite female culprits (Shannon, Rosa, Kyrie, etc.). Nanjo almost certainly isn't a physical Beatrice, nor is it likely Maria would confuse him for Beatrice, but I don't think it's impossible that he could have some degree of "Beatrice involvement." It need not necessarily be a conspiracy. In fact, the variability of events lends credence to a greater number of individual or small-group conspirators than one large group; the differences in killing MO and theatrical presentation of events makes 3-5 groups of one or two people more probable than a single group of 7-10, or even two groups of 5+ each. Yes, the Kinzo conspiracy is larger. But the Kinzo conspiracy may itself be a trick; "ah, so all these people can hide Kinzo's death, it must also be possible for the mystery to be in the hands of a large conspiracy!" Whatever the motives of Beatrice (or the Beatrices), it may not be sensible that they would be appealing to a very large group of people. In fact, the more personal the desires of each "Beatrice," the easier it is to explain their motives. Having said that, if we believe Battler's sin to be a catalyst, breaking up the number of possible conspirators means either that we must believe his sin against a single independent conspirator led to a bunch of conspiracies in turn (which is absurd), that his sin is of such tremendous importance that it has massive ripples across every character present (I can think of only a handful of things that would make this not seem dumb), or that his sin only affected the midnight event (which does indeed kill everyone, if it can) and the other conspriacies are a coincidence. Which isn't terribly satisfying. EDIT: I didn't mean to actually use the term "farce" in a technical sense, but heh... Note that Bernkastel's poetry mentions it's a farce by the seventh time... I can't wait for her to reveal that everyone except Battler is Beatrice. "So Dr. Nanjo..." "Yes, Beatrice." "Even Aunt Rosa?" "Yup." "Well surely Gohda-" "He's actually one of the ones disguising himself as her." "But... why?" "You've been gone a long time." |
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2010-04-20, 18:56 | Link #8529 | |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
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In this manner, Battler's sin provides a way for the confusing situation on the board to be created, which requires a Piece-Beatrice to be available even if one is not seen by Battler directly, and causes the murders indirectly. Oh, by the way. Umineko Dates Timeline - work in progress. Help with progress would be very nice.
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2010-04-20, 19:26 | Link #8530 | |
Mystery buff
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Think about it
Not a defense for Shkanon though I'm afraid. It's been done before.
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Last edited by Judoh; 2010-04-20 at 20:37. |
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2010-04-20, 19:32 | Link #8531 |
Senior Member
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...what? I've never heard this before...
But you're spot-on in the similarities to Lost, however Lost doesn't shy away from supernatural things actually...you know, existing for all to see. There's no reason why Umineko can't have character development without clues though. EVERY SCENE IN UMINEKO doesn't have a clue in it. As Ryuukishi said, if you look too hard, you "drown in a sea of clues." |
2010-04-20, 20:43 | Link #8533 | |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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2010-04-20, 20:48 | Link #8534 |
Senior Member
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John Dickson Carr used elements similar to red text a few times.
The Three Coffins (aka The Hollow Man) stated at the beginning that a few witnesses were giving sincere reports; neither adding nor omitting anything. The Nine Wrong Answers had a number of footnotes announcing that various hypotheses that the reader might have were wrong.
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2010-04-20, 20:59 | Link #8535 | |
Back off, I'm a scientist
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Location: In a badly written story.
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2010-04-20, 21:27 | Link #8536 | |
Endless Member
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2010-04-20, 21:31 | Link #8538 |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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Actually, shouldn't he have one already? Eva and Shannon are the only ones with that much exposed skin, so they're the only ones with the Eagle that we see, but shouldn't everyone in the family have a tattoo like that? I wouldn't put it past Kinzo to make them all engrave the OWE onto their bodies forever...
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