2008-05-27, 12:22 | Link #841 | |
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2008-05-27, 14:11 | Link #842 |
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Actually as I mentioned in my post before i do not think it is only about Wales death.
Remember the whole letter incident and basically how in my opinion skillfully she got Louise into helping her to get the letter back. I mean she came to Louise at night started talking how great friends they are (though she haven't been in touch with Louise for a very long time) then whines about how she is in trouble and though refused Louises concern and help at first, she still told what was about and even told how Louise could help her, which of course Louise did. So I think Henrietta was manipulative even before Wales death. But after Wales death she became, more aggressive so to say, willing to sacrifice people for the sake of peace... Yet peace build on blood is never very stable... I also second the thought that Henrietta may be the last obstacle in the novels as well... She is not evil but... she looks very manipulated to say the least... Like she imprisoned Louise and Saito so that they would not help Tabitha but once they escaped and helped Tabitha, Henrietta started using the fact that Tabitha is her cousin and Louise became her best friend once again... Last edited by Darknemo2000; 2008-05-27 at 14:23. |
2008-05-27, 15:04 | Link #844 | |
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2008-05-27, 15:19 | Link #845 | |
そのおっぱいで13才
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Kore ha hidoi yo~, hahaha.
I've never thought of it that way, but when you mention it, it is possible. Though for me, I just consider her an annoying hypocrite, who tends to be a drama queen, who says one moment, that she doesn't want them to get hurt, and the next moment, wants to send them out on to the front lines. So, yeah, I consider her a lot simpler, but if she turns out to be some manipulator like that, than so be it. If she really has been manipulating the characters, then she has the best acting skills I've seen for a while, since there were some moments where she genuinely seemed to be the one manipulated. Quote:
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2008-05-27, 15:52 | Link #846 | |
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Saito, despite been seen as stupid ecchi, is actually much more capable doing stuff whereas Louise is highly unreliable. Louise gambled her money away because she can't stand not having amenities. Louise has so far fumbled from one fluke to the next. It is a miracle that she is not dead already. Henrietta very much want Saito to work for her. However, let's not forget Saito is very much always looking for a way home and Louise is very committed to realizing that goal. That, of course, is not working towards Henrietta's end. At the very least, she can't have Louise run off far and away and possibly get herself caught by other people. Therefore, Henrietta has alot of reason to keep Saito attached and not returning home. One thing that happened in 14 is Louise taking upon herself to strike a deal with the Pope to return Saito home. In return Louise is agreeing to work directly for the Church. I think Henrietta is again alarmed at the prospect of losing Louise and Saito, and is going to work overtime securing their loyalty. |
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2008-05-27, 16:04 | Link #847 |
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I agree and disagree with you at the same time, serenade...
I agree with you about her seducing Saito mostly from loneliness, the first time she tried... But the second time she was trying to seduce Saito it was very precise afforts and even if it was influenced by her loneliness you have to wonder how she rather calmly abused her queens powers to keep Louise and Saito apart as much as possible, keeping Saito close to herself. Plus the second time she kissed Saito she was pretending to be Louise (Though Saito realized it by the end but still..Using your best friend's outlook to seduce the one she loves is bit low...). All these things combined, I would not be surprised if her motives would not be only her lonely heart (the second time she tried seducing, the first one was definitely emotional one) but something else as well... Henrietta is a hypocrite without a doubt. It is hard for me to imagine how a person that read all 14 volumes of ZnT novels would still not count Henrietta as a hypocrite, as her actions and words strongly contradict. The question is - is her hypocrisy simple and she still is naive fool inside or is she actually very manipulative character. |
2008-05-27, 16:44 | Link #849 |
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Also remember the first time Henrietta seduces Saito in the run-down inn, she is in fact in the middle of a plot to eliminate her oppositions. I was most taken aback by her comment that these people are "enemies and traitors" in no uncertain terms. She is in fact gearing up for a very brutal bloodbath in the theater. The comment illustrates that she has no intention of sparing her enemies. In the anime the other side mostly surrendered but in the novel it is clearly stated the musketeers killed a lot of people.
While in the midst of all this dastardly business, she's getting it on with Saito in the inn, which is slightly disconcerting. Perhaps she's nervous but this calculating side just betrays her typical description as cute and naive, etc, etc |
2008-05-27, 17:03 | Link #850 | |
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And one last question,i'm very interested about vindalf personnality:is he better than the pope and what does he think of saito?Why did he give louise back to tristain army in vol.8(wasn't his mission to cupturse her or at less to take her ring)?He tought saito was about to die so he has no reason to keep his promise;that's why i think of him as a better guy than the pope-conflicted loyalty?-am i wrong? |
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2008-05-27, 18:24 | Link #851 | |
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The noble title was re-instated after Tabitha was rescued. Can't figure out the last question. |
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2008-05-27, 21:31 | Link #852 | |
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Moreover, as a princess and heir to the throne, Henrietta should have been brought up with a reasonable idea of plots, intrigues and conspiracies - to do otherwise would have been gross negligence on the part of her parents. Considering all that plus Henrietta's relative inexperience in rulership, I don't necessarily think it's all that odd that she should come off cold and calculating at some times, yet pretty hapless and naive at other times - or even that she should be so quick to use her friends as tools, because that seems to me to be how their entire system of nobility (and hence government) actually works. |
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2008-05-27, 23:51 | Link #853 |
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Well we could question ourselves do the guys at KGB responsible for killing so many people in soviet union?
After all they were raised to be part of the structure, which in soviet union was loyalty to the party and the leader, to the point of killing and betraying your own family. Do the young nazis-yougend were responsible for killing jews in Hitler's Germany? They also were a part of the system. A lot of people use system to cover up their own cruelty and bloodlust and when they are caught they say - I am not the one to blame - system is at fault. But the fact that some people grow out of the system makes such comments less credible. In ZnT novels Louise was able to grow up out of the system (she gave up on her tittle for saving her friend), Montmorency, Guiche, Kirche are also not what you would consider nobles that are completely dependent on the system either. So i do not think you can everything put on the systems blame. You can break through it even if you were born in it. The people that killed others in nazis germany or in soviet union were either too weak or not willing to step out of the system. it was hard to determine weather the person was too weak or just enjoyed killing under the cover of the system. However, the responsible ones (the ones that take the highest government positions) were all punished. Henrietta is taking the highest possible position in her country thus her responsibility for her actions is much higher than others. Which also puts a lot of stress on her, yet when her latest decisions lead to bloodshed (though it could have been avoided) one can question if she could be held responsible for that despite the system? I think Henrietta is more complex character rather than just a naive idiot whose hypocrisy steams only from her emotional weakness (where he says to the face one thing, but turns around - and does completely different thing) but rather at least some of her actions are calculated (killing enemies off, using Tabitha and Louise). The latest event will make her worry without a doubt. Loosing Louise (void magician) would her a lot, so I think she will try to regain the control in one way or another. Tabitha is a problem, since no matter how hard Henrietta may press on the fact that Tabitha (Charlotte) is her cousin, it is obvious that Tabitha only trusts Saito, Kirche and Louise the most, he friends that risked everything to save her rather than the queen who imprisoned them to prevent her from saving just to keep the political stability and only became a caring cousin later. Henrietta isnt evil and she can herself fall into the trap (like with the pope) however, a thief that had been robbed is still a thief. Henrietta, who had been manipulated, can still be a calculating manipulator herself. |
2008-05-28, 00:54 | Link #854 | ||
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What I am saying is that I don't find her actions especially shocking or unusual, in light of her circumstances and the world she lives in. Quote:
I agree with that too. I think she's doing as much as she can to be a calculating politician; I'm just not sure she's really good enough at it to be a serious mastermind. Things could have ended up disastrously for Henrietta several times now if not for Saito, Louise and company saving the day in various unplanned and unexpected ways. |
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2008-05-28, 02:47 | Link #855 |
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Sorry, Guppy, I have misunderstood you as i thought you were traying to put the blame on the system rather on Henrietta.
I do agree that this makes her actions less surprising. However, we also have to remember what nice things she says. It makes one expect that she would act according those words, but instead she acts totally differently from what she said, being a total hypocrite. I would understand if she would be lying to her political opponents but she is also two-faced with Louise, who should be her best friend. I do agree that if not impossible acts from Louise and Saito she would have been in a pitch, but I do not see that as an argument that she is less calculated manipulator. The first Louise miracle was without a doubt totally unexpected for her, but later, I think Henrietta started to believe that Louise and Saito are capable to do impossible things for her, thus using them as her trump card. So in a sense she was expecting them to do impossible things, Maybe of less magnitude but still... For me it seems taht she either does not understand that Louise has her limits and that she burns out each time she uses her void magic more and more or she understands but still uses Louise purely as a tool. Sure she reminds of how they are best friends each possible moment and cares for their (Louise and Saito) both health in an instant, but it doesn't stop her from using them as tools the other moment. Again, i am not trying to portray her as evil witch or something, however I think that some people greatly overestimate her naiveté bit too much. She is portrayed as such but her actions give us another portrait of her. In anime - sure she is what we see. But again in anime we will never see a really heartbroken/depressed Louise, nor we will see Saito pondering about the meaning of life and death (like he did in Wales arc in novels). Basically anime is for children who enjoy seeing tit-jokes every ten minutes. It doesn't try to be complex in terms of plot or characters. Noborus ZnT novels are not the most complex light novels around here, tahts for sure, but they do deep digger than anime would ever be able to. Thats why taking Henrietta just as a naive kindhearted princess who only fell in the hands of system and evil manipulators is simplifying things too much. I agree with hchuang, that this makes Hnerietta one of the most interesting characters to look at. sure, I do not like her as much as I did in the first books, yet it still doesn't make her a shallow character. One more interesting thing - have anyone noticed that Henrietta is trying to build a circle of young nobles around her? I mean she is giving a rather big positions from the young nobles from academy who will become heads of their families someday. It could also be treated that she is preparing to have a loyal circle of nobles that support her in the future. It is not secret that older family members do look down on Henrietta a little but this cannot be said about youngsters so Henrietta is using this to make them feel indebted now to ensure their loyalty in the future. Plus she is ensuring her fame between peasants as well. If everything goes right she may be a rather strong ruler in the future. One problem is that she relies on Saito and Louise miracles bit too much. Louise is burning herself out as she is using more and more void powers without being able to rest herself and restore it properly. Saito is much more reliable at this sense, but Henrietta already failed in seducing him anyway and the latest acts by the duo may have made her little bit scared of loosing them both (plus Tabitha, is not trusting her "dear" cousin as much as she trusts Saito or Kirche). |
2008-05-28, 04:21 | Link #856 | |
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2.what kind of"precise effort" and how did she "abuse of her power as queen" to keep saito close of her(and separate him from louise) when she was still trying to seduce him? 3.I've heard nothing of siesta in vol.14:is that because she did no follow them in romalia?I'd like to know what she tough of louise sending saito back witthout considering her feeling;in fact anything about her would be fine. |
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2008-05-28, 05:44 | Link #857 | ||
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It's not that Henrietta isn't a calculating manipulator (when she wants to be, anyway) - it's just that I don't think she's all that good at it, and so I'm a bit skeptical about whether she can be a credible final antagonist as hchuang postulates. It might happen, but Henrietta will have to make one heck of a step up first. |
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2008-05-28, 07:19 | Link #858 |
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Tabitha is always a rather hard to read character so you have to read her by her actions instead, and in this aspect it si pretty obvious that she trusts much more Saito or Kirche than her cousin.
As for Henrietta abusing her power. Simple things - finding Saito to do around her to keep him at her place even if there wasn't anything to do really. But Henrietta made sure he would spend more time around her rather than with Louise. I do not think Henrietta is very good at manipulating yet either. Like she relies on Louise and Saito's miracles too much, but she can be the last obstacle given the situation. |
2008-05-28, 07:56 | Link #859 | |
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More importantly,if i can still annoy you guy,could you give a bref summary of the encounter of saito with brimir and his elf-it's bound to have an importance in the next volume,especially when the elf will get involved. |
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2008-05-28, 08:20 | Link #860 | ||
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Wait, is this memory transfer permanent? So now Louise can remember everything Saito think about at any given moment? O_O Suicide now boy! before it is too late |
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comedy, harem, light novels, shounen |
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