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Old 2009-08-25, 19:18   Link #1401
telamont
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
Exactly. For me, this series has always being about a journey, a journey to a normal life, to the "place" you belong to. In chapter one, Reiji longs to go back to his normal life, and makes Elen realize that she was longing for it too (that really faint memory of her homeland that she still had, symbolizes that). In chapter 2, Cal makes Reiji a bit closer to a normal life, but he's still far from it. Now in chapter 3, he's almost there, and I think the journey is to end with Elen. Let's think about it, even if Cal forgives Reiji, and goes with him, I don't see her as a path that would lead Reiji to a normal life, because she still would be an assassin, she likes that. But Elen, trough her wish for her own place, can be a path for Reiji to finally get there. That's why I think the series is going to end with them getting to Elen's homeland, which would symbolize they're finally free.
I see. That's certainly a beautiful interpretation. I'll be sure to keep it in mind, no matter what ending we get. But then, finding Ellen's home land and helping her regain herself would be a major, not minor plot point. In that case I believe that some of the plot threads in chapter 3 should have been cut (like Cal staying dead for an example, or maybe Inferno not going after them) to make room for that happening, on screen. I really hope that if that's what they're going with, then we don't just get that "nice little line" during the epilogue. Would be really poor execution in my opinion.

Me, I see the series as a variation of the classical "coming of age" story. Boy gets yanked out of his comfortable life. Boy gets thrown into a cruel uncaring world. Boy makes hard choices, grows, and then must learn to live with his choices. So therefore, I have no problem with him going with Cal and continuing on being an assassin, as long as it's on his own terms, terms that he can be comfortable with. Like it or not, Reiji is now one of the world's premier killers. He kills people without blinking. He's good at what he does. He suffered and bled for his skills. The assassin Zwei of today is not the innocent boy Reiji of the past. That will not change no matter how he much he wishes otherwise. He must learn to come to terms with that fact.

So yea, if he ends up with Ellen, we can certainly see it as happy end. Like I've said, it's certainly a beautiful and romantic interpretation. But look at it another way, all that suffering, all the people he's killed, if he just goes back to a normal life, it can also be seen as running away. His past four-five years would be completely negated. He'd be back to square one. And whereas his peers would have used those years to learn useful life skills, he only has assassin skills he can't use. He'd basically be reduced from the Phantom to being a 20 year old trying to go through life with the life skills of a 16 year old. And further more, his killer instincts and the blood on his hands won't ever go away. I could even go so far as to say that any "normal" life he tries to live would ultimately end up being a sham.

So you see, there's a flip side to everything no? I guess that's why life is so interesting
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Old 2009-08-25, 19:34   Link #1402
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Originally Posted by orion View Post
Cal in reality would be called worse things than psycho in 2009. She does bear ultimate responsibility for her situation imo. She's almost considered an emancipated minor in fact. As I stated, this game was done in a kinder, gentler time.
But like I said, the question of what Scythe Master has done to her, and how much control he had over her development (Some? None? A lot? Absolute?) makes this a very murky issue. I think we can at least agree on this simple statement: People get angry and hurt when they're abandoned by someone they love. And then they move on, true. Problem with Cal is that Scythe Master was there to screw with her mind at the worst possible moment. How would she have turned out if he wasn't there? The world will never know.

Let's just say that she's as responsible for her current situation as Reiji and Ellen and leave it at that shall we? Different methodology true, but same Scythe Master.
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Old 2009-08-25, 19:36   Link #1403
orion
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Originally Posted by telamont View Post

So yea, if he ends up with Ellen, we can certainly see it as happy end. Like I've said, it's certainly a beautiful and romantic interpretation. But look at it another way, all that suffering, all the people he's killed, if he just goes back to a normal life, it can also be seen as running away. His past four-five years would be completely negated. He'd be back to square one. And whereas his peers would have used those years to learn useful life skills, he only has assassin skills he can't use. He'd basically be reduced from the Phantom to being a 20 year old trying to go through life with the life skills of a 16 year old. And further more, his killer instincts and the blood on his hands won't ever go away. I could even go so far as to say that any "normal" life he tries to live would ultimately end up being a sham.

So you see, there's a flip side to everything no? I guess that's why life is so interesting
Except...

That we do similar things in real life all the time.

We send teens and twentysomethings off to war. They shoot, maim and kill other people and yet come back to regular civilian life. People train to be police officers. They shoot and sometimes kill people in the line of duty and go home to a regular life. So there is a precedence.

And he only needs to get a GED. He prob has more life survival skills than a normal 20 yo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by telamont View Post
.

Let's just say that she's as responsible for her current situation as Reiji and Ellen and leave it at that shall we? Different methodology true, but same Scythe Master.
Works for me as Elen and Reiji have moved forward and attempted a normal existence while Cal didn't. Reiji and Elen being more responsible of the 3.
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Old 2009-08-25, 19:40   Link #1404
Kazu-kun
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Originally Posted by telamont View Post
So you see, there's a flip side to everything no? I guess that's why life is so interesting
I think we can agree on this one.

Anyway, here's looking forwards to the next episode. It'll be cool to see Elen and Cal kick the crap out of each other for a while.
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Old 2009-08-25, 19:41   Link #1405
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Originally Posted by orion View Post
Except...

That we do similar things in real life all the time.

We send teens and twentysomethings off to war. They shoot, maim and kill other people and yet come back to regular civilian life. People train to be police officers. They shoot and sometimes kill people in the line of duty and go home to a regular life. So there is a precedence.
I think if you ask any normal person if there's a difference between assassins, officers, and soldiers, they'd tell you "Yes."
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Old 2009-08-25, 19:45   Link #1406
orion
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Originally Posted by GDB View Post
I think if you ask any normal person if there's a difference between assassins, officers, and soldiers, they'd tell you "Yes."
Possibly but there isn't an official assassin psych makeup. All 3 are killing people for dfferent reasons and have to overcome the fact that they have to kill. All 3 are paid for their services. All 3 go home to regular lives after a day's work so to speak. (Of course, "home" for the solder is back to camp.) It's all a matter of whether it's legal or illegal imo.
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Old 2009-08-25, 19:47   Link #1407
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Originally Posted by orion View Post
Possibly but there isn't an official assassin psych makeup. All 3 are killing people for dfferent reasons and have to overcome the fact that they have to kill. All 3 are paid for their services. All 3 go home to regular lives after a day's work so to speak. It's all a matter of whether it's legal or illegal imo.
Except officers protect people, soldiers protect ideals, and assassins just do it for themselves.
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Old 2009-08-25, 19:52   Link #1408
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Except officers protect people, soldiers protect ideals, and assassins just do it for themselves.
As I said, legal (sanctioned by your government) or illegal. Assassins are hired by others. They are "protecting" a private entities ideals, etc. that are not sanctioned by your government. Private entities can not have armies and snipers at their beck and call. Your government can.

It's a matter of perspective.
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Old 2009-08-25, 19:54   Link #1409
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Originally Posted by GDB View Post
Except officers protect people, soldiers protect ideals, and assassins just do it for themselves.
Does that really matter anyway? I think it's all about how much will do you have to move on. Reiji and Elen have proved they do want to move on, they want to live normal lifes. Now we have to see if they can follow through on it.

That's all there is to it imo.
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Old 2009-08-25, 19:54   Link #1410
telamont
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Originally Posted by orion View Post
Except...

That we do similar things in real life all the time.

We send teens and twentysomethings off to war. They shoot, maim and kill other people and yet come back to regular civilian life. People train to be police officers. They shoot and sometimes kill people in the line of duty and go home to a regular life.

And he only needs to get a GED. He prob has more life survival skills than a normal 20 yo.



Works for me as Elen and Reiji have moved forward and attempted a normal existence while Cal didn't.

Sure, I'm not saying that they absolutely can't leave it all behind them, hence my praise of the alternate interpretation. But there's no guarantee that they will either.

IRL, people get sent to war all the time, true, and most of them go back to normal civilian life, true. But despite the fact that their killings were government sanctioned, and that they have "patriotism" and "ideals" to allay their guilt, many of them do end up either in the mental hospital or begging on the street, also true.

Reiji does not have those luxuries. Besides, mostly it's the average joes who go back to civilian life, the top dogs would likely stay in the force and try climbing the ranks, maybe even to general one day. It is a waste if Reiji just throws away all the hax skills that he earned.
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Old 2009-08-25, 20:00   Link #1411
orion
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Originally Posted by telamont View Post
Sure, I'm not saying that they absolutely can't leave it all behind them, hence my praise of the alternate interpretation. But there's no guarantee that they will either.

IRL, people get sent to war all the time, true, and most of them go back to normal civilian life, true. But despite the fact that their killings were government sanctioned, and they have "patriotism" to allay their guilt, many of them do end up in either in the mental hospital or begging on the street, also true. Reiji does not have those luxuries. Besides, mostly it's the average joes who go back to civilian life, the top dogs would likely stay in the force and try climbing the ranks, maybe even to general one day. It's a waste if Reiji just throws way all the hax skills that he earned.
But that just goes back to what is Reiji's definition of "happiness". If his happiness is him being an assassin, then it is a waste. If not, then it is not a waste. Reiji thru out this series has attempted to find happiness and then give up midway. Hopefully since we are close to the end, he has more resolve now. He's had a taste of happiness and now knows what's at stake.

Career soldiers are that. There are families of police officers and soldiers. That's what makes them happy. Then there's the person that's there because of the draft or wanting their college tuition paid. They just go in it for the short term and leave when their tour is done. Patriotism only goes so far to alleviate stress.

Think of it as him switching fields. People do radical job switches a lot. If one job is not making you happy, you move on to something else.
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Old 2009-08-25, 20:21   Link #1412
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Originally Posted by orion View Post
But that just goes back to what is Reiji's definition of "happiness". If his happiness is him being an assassin, then it is a waste. If not, then it is not a waste.

Career soldiers are that. There are families of police officers and soldiers. That's what makes them happy. Then there's the person that's there because of the draft or wanting their college tuition paid. They just go in it for the short term and leave when their tour is done. Patriotism only goes so far to alleviate stress.

Think of it as him switching fields. People do radical job switches a lot. If one job is not making you happy, you move on to something else.
I respectfully disagree. It's four of the best years of his life, where a human being's ability to learn new things is at its height. To throw them all away, no matter how you look at it is a waste.

And before you bring in your IRL argument... Stupid teens do waste away their life all the time, and people do get stuck in unsatisfying jobs. And then they move on. That doesn't mean though that when they look back, they'll go "Oh, those years of my life weren't a waste, if I had a chance to do everything over, I wouldn't change a thing "

So yeah, it's certainly possible for Reiji to leave everything behind him, I won't deny that. But if we look at Phantom as a coming of age story, then we've basically spent time watching a guy wasting away the best years of his life. If he ends up living a normal life, then might as well have let him stay in school.

Like I said so many times, it's all in how you interpret the story.
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Old 2009-08-25, 20:44   Link #1413
telamont
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Originally Posted by orion View Post
Works for me as Elen and Reiji have moved forward and attempted a normal existence while Cal didn't. Reiji and Elen being more responsible of the 3.
"Normal" is overrated. My only real problem with Cal is her unjustified grudge. But we can explain that away with Scythe Master. If she wants to have fun dueling the mafia, and if that's what makes her happy, then more power to her. Like you said, career soldier, career assassins, they all kill. Until I see Cal happily killing innocent civilians, I don't really care. She's Inferno's top assassin, and at least she has her own will, she can probably pick her jobs at this point. It's highly unlikely they'll send Phantom after Joe Schmoe off the streets anyway.

"Live fast, die young" is also a way of life after all.

Hmm... wonder if my attitude is little too easy going.
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Old 2009-08-25, 20:45   Link #1414
Zwei
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I'm surprised this series is being adapated into a manga by a hentai yaoi-shotacon artist, T_T
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Old 2009-08-26, 03:57   Link #1415
evil-samurai
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Quote:
Originally Posted by telamont
then we've basically spent time watching a guy wasting away the best years of his life. If he ends up living a normal life, then might as well have let him stay in school.
Quote:
Reiji does not have those luxuries. Besides, mostly it's the average joes who go back to civilian life, the top dogs would likely stay in the force and try climbing the ranks, maybe even to general one day. It is a waste if Reiji just throws away all the hax skills that he earned.
Whatever Reiji decides to do, His former life as a Phantom would not simply be a 'waste' The Past makes the Present. He can go onto living a normal life and these skills can be used for the rest of his life, just one of many examples... he can Protect people important to him (Think Kenshin!)

Sure he wont get the 'most' out of his skills with a normal life, but that hardly should be considered a waste of his life. Thats being quite harsh.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zwei
I'm surprised this series is being adapated into a manga by a hentai yaoi-shotacon artist, T_T
So its possable we are going to have Scythe x Reiji Scenes.... *Shivers* Though Reiji is no shota he is the closest there is and fits in there with Scythe on the first tag..

That reminds me.. some images I saw on the official anime Phantom site one day.
Spoiler for Couple:
I could see it, mabye happen.. but what about this... Scary..
Spoiler for Scythe...:

Last edited by evil-samurai; 2009-08-26 at 06:02.
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Old 2009-08-26, 06:23   Link #1416
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Anyone listened to the full version of ED2? I have to say the TV version is much better...
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Old 2009-08-26, 07:36   Link #1417
orion
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Well, seeing that we are talking a lot about the goals of the storyline and character, I guess I can post what I believe are the goals, what is needed to accomplish them and what are the problems with them (these are all MY opinions of course and no doubt others have completely different opinions and will disagree with me).

Spoiler for Saving space:
Elen goal 1 hasn't been mentioned in the anime. It's a VN thing that's being alluded to by the ED song imo. Elen goal 5 has been hinted at in the anime at least 3 times so far with the latest in ep. 20. No sister hugs her brother like that (too close for too long) and her reaction when Mio tried to confess practically nails it. Elen's feelings are there but they're the anime Asian ones like Mio and not the in your face American obsession type like Cal. On a certain level Reiji prob "gets it" as he did get jealous when his friend got to sit beside her at lunch and then you had the comments about him chasing off the Elen suitors and being called a siscon. *I'm not mentioning the VN part as it hasn't been shown in the anime and prob won't.*

Elen's sisterly feeling for Reiji (Elen goal 6) aren't very reflective of females imo. Girls aren't "wired" to think that way at her age for the most part imo. It's prob illustrating an inability to commit for whatever reason imo. Thankfully, not seen in the anime from my perspective. She is able to commit but allows Reiji to make the choice. She needs to be more aggressive in the way that she verbalizes it as some guys can be clueless or have a commitment problem (Reiji) imo.

We won't know what Drei's goals are until she says them in the next episode. Goals are flexible things and her assassin viewpoint may have changed in 2 years. That's a VN assessment of Drei's goals you've written as none have been mentioned in the anime besides settling things with Elen and Reiji.

Quote:
Originally Posted by evil-samurai View Post

That reminds me.. some images I saw on the official anime Phantom site one day.
Spoiler for Couple:
That's the first thing I thought when I saw the bathtub scene.

Add another dimension on why Claudia got hunted the way she did. Mr. McGuire wanted personal vengeance.
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Last edited by orion; 2009-08-26 at 08:40. Reason: it's too early and I write slow. :heh:
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Old 2009-08-26, 08:29   Link #1418
Nayrael
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Quote:
We won't know what Drei's goals are until she says them in the next episode. Goals are flexible things and her assassin viewpoint may have changed in 2 years. That's a VN assessment of Drei's goals you've written as none have been mentioned in the anime besides settling things with Elen and Reiji.
Nope the assestment of goals are written by the anime perspective. Goal 1 is connected with her and is obvious (she fired a bullet in middle of the street on a bright day, killed one of her comrades in the reastaurant, tortured the Chinese guy and Scyhte already mentioned that Cal would start a gunfight in school and that she is fueled with hatred), goal 2 is obvious and goal 3 is there since ep16.
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Old 2009-08-26, 08:32   Link #1419
orion
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Nothing is obvious in a 2 year span. As I mentioned previously, goals change. It's a part of maturing and living circumstances. A sheltered 14 yo will not have the same goals as an independent 16 yo imo. Drei has to reinterate the Cal goals for it to be interpreted as being the same imo.
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Last edited by orion; 2009-08-26 at 08:41. Reason: slow writer, too early :heh:
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Old 2009-08-26, 08:44   Link #1420
Nayrael
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Quote:
Nothing is obvious in a 2 year span. As I mentioned previously, goals change. It's a part of maturing. A sheltered 14 yo will not have the same goals as an independent 16 yo imo. Drei has to reinterate the Cal goals for it to be interpreted as being the same imo.
Which is just why I have written "goal concerning her" there rather then "her goal", not to mention that I do consider her to have been mentaly mature enough while she was 14 years old, altough the playful attitude (which I consider to be part of her personality rather then effect of age) made her seem childier. If anything has changed, that was with Scyhte's influence. It is how I inrepreted it, even when I was at this point in the VN first time (concerning Drei/Cal, info is the same in anime and novel). The post would have been much larger if I took info from the VN.

Tough I do not feel discussing this for long so I will put a spoiler tag if that brings peace to you.
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