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Old 2009-10-01, 01:14   Link #2421
[DOT].L
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stormy001_M1A2 View Post
Huh? Who are we to say that the ending was "doing it wrong?".

And once again I've confused someone with my choice of awkward wording and/or obscure reference(?).

The series did not err in its choice of an ending. Rather, my comment about "doing it wrong" is aimed at those who kept raging about how terrible the ending was, all the while without ever providing some sufficiently convincing reasoning to back their opinion. Many of these posts revolved around the "cart-scene" alone as if it is some magical solitary event that made the ending somehow "bad," while failing to show that the posters themselves had taken the time to contemplate that event along with the rest of the series as a whole before coming to a well thought through argument to back their position. I suspect many of these posters were simply dissatisfied with the fact that Phantom did not adhere to their vision of an ideal ending (whatever that might be), thus resulting in their unrelenting, but ultimately unjustified, complaints of the actual ending being "bad" and "irrational."

Last edited by [DOT].L; 2009-10-01 at 01:42.
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Old 2009-10-01, 02:28   Link #2422
willyvereb
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No...Your assumption is myabe right on some of the complaining people, but really not to everyone.
The problem is it was "obvious" after the episode just before the final one that they're following the 'Road of the Cerulean Sky' ending of the VN. Instead they dumbly kill the protagonist in the last minutes by some random cart-driver to make it tragic and different from the VN's ending. Well, excluding the fact that Reiji was famous about his near-inhuman survival skills it was alright. But the thing bugged even me the thing that they show Elen's happy face and all a way too long after it, like she wouldn't notice Reiji falling to the ground. It somehow destroyed the scene's impact.
So in all honesty the last few minutes was a way too forced for me. That's why the people are complaining and perhaps because of the thing you mentioned before.

Last edited by willyvereb; 2009-10-01 at 03:02.
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Old 2009-10-01, 02:32   Link #2423
The1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick_rick View Post
You mince words as the child and mother were innocent. You don't want to consider then that since you want to chose Reiji side. If Reiji was told by Inferno to kill an priest or police officer who was in there way he would do it? You agree right not matter how innocent they were. Of course you say they weren't innocent since Inferno wants to kill them. Inferno kills only guilty people its the moral criminal organization. Am I right?
that kid and mother had nothing to do with crime and still Inferno(Claudia) signed their death sentence. Since reiji killed a mother and child by given order, he would kill any target assigned to him...After regained his memory he never killed unless he had to(Except the Scythe and maybe Cal case).


I don't recall saying ANYTHING that would encourage Inferno's actions or idolize them. I am saying that Inferno was indeed twisted and bloodthirsty not reiji(it was Inferno who turned his life upside down). Since you only put all the blame on reiji i won't argue that because it's a waste of my time.



If this ending satisfies you, voila enjoy it. I don't like it kuz it still leaves some open questions. If it was my choice i'd go for 'vengeful spirits' kuz there reiji goes rampage on Inferno. I still say that your logic is faulty on this one by the content of your posts.
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Old 2009-10-01, 03:34   Link #2424
evil-samurai
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Personally I think that Reiji is certainly Dead. First of all he was shot. Reiji was shot at such a close range that if it was a Professional assassination from Inferno (which it extremely likey) That I doubt they would of miss a certain death shot. It wasn't in the heat of a moment, but a good old Slient Assisnation. If they didn't think one shot would be enough they could of shot him a few times. But they didn't.

Is Ellen Dead.. Mabye... But I dont think she would simply kill herself, if she found reiji dead. As she said "These memories are enough for me to continue living" (Then we see reiji Fall down) In the end she was able able to live for herself because of these memories. Which for me was probably the best moment in the episode. I'd like think Ellen character grew in that scene and didn't just go backwards. Plus she was also saying "she will live the life he wished for" Reiji wanted her to smile and he happy.. so with all this in mind, I think she would choose to live over death. And not be so dependet on Reiji that she would just kill herself. Still Its highly likey that assassins that killed Reiji also went after her.. Its clear that Reiji is a threat to Inferno. But mabye ellen isn't in Inferno radar... Not sure.. but because we didn't see ellen getting shot or any evidence that she was shot, it up in the air.

Well people can think that the last 30 seconds or so didn't happen but it stands no matter what! I know I'm dissapointed in the ending and I'd like to just forgot from episode 25 onwords but it happened :/ I dont think the ending was just added on. Most likey they had it planned for a while. As strange as the scene comes across. .
Quote:
Originally Posted by willyvereb
The problem is it was "obvious" after the episode just before the final one that they're following the 'Road of the Cerulean Sky' ending of the VN
Well, I'm not that knowledgeable about the VN, only read summaries and am still playing it through for the first time, But I know they didn't follow Ellen's ending scene by scene ('marriage' scene) so perhaps it was for a reason.. Just a thought.

Last edited by evil-samurai; 2009-10-01 at 03:45.
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Old 2009-10-01, 03:46   Link #2425
[DOT].L
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willyvereb View Post
No...Your assumption is myabe right on some of the complaining people, but really not to everyone.
The problem is it was "obvious" after the episode just before the final one that they're following the [IMG]file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/WILLYV%7E1/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot-2.jpg[/IMG]'Road of the Cerulean Sky' ending of the VN. Instead they dumbly kill the protagonist in the last minutes by some random cart-driver to make it tragic and different from the VN's ending. Well, excluding the fact that Reiji was famous about his near-inhuman survival skills it was alright. But the thing bugged even me the thing that they show Elen's happy face and all a way too long after it, like she wouldn't notice Reiji falling to the ground. It somehow destroyed the scene's impact.
So in all honesty the last few minutes was a way too forced for me. That's why the people are complaining and perhaps because of the thing you mentioned before.
If people were complain solely because the ending is different from that of which is offered in the VN, I will faceplam more. For blatantly obvious reasons. Yet it's a disgustingly plausible speculation. Ugh.

There is little problem with the ending in symbolic and thematic terms. It makes sense. The story does drive itself into a corner with respects to the number of plot devices it has left to execute the ending, that I will gladly admit. Considering what is left available, however, the ending did just fine. It's less than optimal, but a functional and sensible conclusion just the same. If one understood the underlying symbolic/thematic trappings of the last 2 minutes, I really can't see why one would crown the ending as "bad" and "irrational."

Having said that, as an overall product Phantom is mediocre at best. It's structurally orthodox and technically sound, occasionally thought provoking, but fundamentally low in substantial content. It's somewhat of a cut above the conventional products of its genre through the employment of intermittent bursts of stylistic flare. It's not great or downright awful. It's just another one of those "slightly good" titles that kinda sorta tries to be good but in the end settles for mediocrity.

Frankly, I'm content with Phantom. At least it remained true to itself all the way to the end. It gave a straightforward ending without any sort of pretentious shenanigans, and I'd take that over poorly thought out pseudo-philosophical bullshit any day.
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Old 2009-10-01, 13:13   Link #2426
Kaoru Chujo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [DOT].L View Post
If people were complain solely because the ending is different from that of which is offered in the VN, I will facepalm more.... Having said that, as an overall product Phantom is mediocre at best. It's structurally orthodox and technically sound, occasionally thought provoking, but fundamentally low in substantial content.... It gave a straightforward ending without any sort of pretentious shenanigans, and I'd take that over poorly thought out pseudo-philosophical bullshit any day.
Not that I'm either agreeing or disagreeing, but what does "fundamentally low in substantial content" mean? What constitutes "substantial content"?

Personally, I thought the portrayal of the characters gave me lots of "substantial content," as did the sense of inescapable tragedy that hung over the whole thing. I too am a bit allergic to "pseudo-philosophical" stuff. My own rating for this show is "excellent," at the moment.

I'm still not sure what to make of the ending, myself. I'm not even sure what's going on in Elen's mind, or if she saw him fall. There's no problem with the ending for me until the gunshot. I'm just not sure what's going on after that.

But if anyone is complaining solely because this doesn't match any of the canon endings, I'm not sure whether to facepalm or just feel badly for them. Maybe no-one's complaints are actually so limited.

NOTE: My avatar of the season is Takagaki Ayahi, who played Ein and plays Sumika in the upcoming Sasameki Koto. Check out the links in my sig, especially the blog post, which includes a lot of info about her, some videos of interviews, and several photos.
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YUUKI Aoi 悠木碧. b92.03.27 (age 26). 2008 Kurenai (Murasaki). 2009 Yumeiro Pâtissičre (Ichigo), Kiruminzuu (Riko), Yutori-chan (Yutori-chan). 2010 Vampire Bund (Mina Tepeş), Shiki (Sunako), Samurai Girls (Juubee), Pokémon: Black and White (Iris). 2011 Madoka Magica (Madoka), Gosick (Victorique), A-Channel (Tooru), Ben-To (Hana). 2012 Symphogear (Hibiki), Kimi no Iru Machi (Rin). 2014 Pilot's Love Song (Claire/Nina), Blade & Soul (Jin Valel), Soul Eater Not! (Meme), Seven Deadly Sins (Diane). 2015 Owari no Seraph (Krul Tepes), Gangsta (Nina), Rokka no Yuusha (Fremy), One-Punch Man (Tornado), Onsen Yousei Hakone-chan (Goura), Hidan no Aria AA (Kirin). 2016 ERASED (Kayo), Boku no Hero Academia (Tsuyu), Ace Attorney (Mayoi), Tanaka-kun (Rino)....etc.

Last edited by Kaoru Chujo; 2009-10-01 at 14:03.
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Old 2009-10-01, 14:49   Link #2427
[DOT].L
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo View Post
Not that I'm either agreeing or disagreeing, but what does "fundamentally low in substantial content" mean? What constitutes "substantial content"?

Personally, I thought the portrayal of the characters gave me lots of "substantial content," as did the sense of inescapable tragedy that hung over the whole thing. I too am a bit allergic to "pseudo-philosophical" stuff. My own rating for this show is "excellent," at the moment.

I'm still not sure what to make of the ending, myself. I'm not even sure what's going on in Elen's mind, or if she saw him fall. There's no problem with the ending for me until the gunshot. I'm just not sure what's going on after that.

But if anyone is complaining solely because this doesn't match any of the canon endings, I'm not sure whether to facepalm or just feel badly for them. Maybe no-one's complaints are actually so limited.

NOTE: My avatar of the season is Takagaki Ayahi, who played Ein and plays Sumika in the upcoming Sasameki Koto. Check out the links in my sig, especially the blog post, which includes a lot of info about her, some videos of interviews, and several photos.
Phantom is insubstantial in that there's not much going on under the surface of the physical story. There's one single half-baked theme all the way through that's ultimately left underdeveloped due to the series becoming increasingly character-focused as things progressed. Events unfold in a very linear, anecdotal fashion ("this happens which then leads to this and finally that happens" kind of way). After a while, one becomes a little indifferent to all the story elements (invoking what some people refer to as the feeling of "meh"). The narrative is almost linear to a fault, thereby diminishing the suspense hook. It's treading extremely close to purely escapist fiction territory, and thus my comment about it being insubstantial. There isn't any food for thought to be found here. Titles like Phantom certainly have their place, but it'd be prudent to note that it's no Heart of Darkness.

I suppose I'm satisfied with the ending because it is in line with everything the story still had going for it at that point. Most of all because it makes symbolic sense. It's a pleasantly appropriate artsy touch for a generally straight up in-your-face plot.

self-indulgent plug: 10 seconds after submitting this post, and I'm already deemed a hypocrite by a fellow forumer. That's pretty awesome.

Last edited by [DOT].L; 2009-10-01 at 15:00.
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Old 2009-10-01, 18:17   Link #2428
Zwei
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zwei View Post
Well, I don't want to see another Gungrave, with an open ending left for the viewers to decide.
Wow, how I wish I was wrong a month ago. First time hating something I was right with.
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Old 2009-10-01, 18:57   Link #2429
maplehurry
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g1alpha
.....I don't understand why people are so upset the Reiji killed off the mother and child. I'm not saying that it's alright to kill someone. But look at it this way. If you had a gun pointed to you and you were told to kill someone, would you say no and just accept death.
Gun pointed at reiji? Not literally...

Spoiler for game:
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Old 2009-10-01, 19:04   Link #2430
Soraya21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maplehurry View Post
Gun pointed at reiji? Not literally...

Spoiler for game:
Spoiler for game spoilers:
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Old 2009-10-01, 19:06   Link #2431
The1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maplehurry View Post
Gun pointed at reiji? Not literally...

Spoiler for game:
yea 'Vengeful spirits' ending...I loved that one the most in chapter 2
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Old 2009-10-01, 20:09   Link #2432
MikaMiaka
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I'll tell you why people may think it is a bad ending:

It was a bad ending because it was unnecessary.

Did he really have to die? Did he really have to? Really?

I am waiting for a sequel where Ein/Elen goes on a rampage and destroys Long Purple Hair Guy, takes over Inferno, stumbles upon Scythe's work and makes a dozen Reijis. Then, I guess his death is necessary. Hah.
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Old 2009-10-01, 21:26   Link #2433
Kaoru Chujo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [DOT].L View Post
...self-indulgent plug: 10 seconds after submitting this post, and I'm already deemed a hypocrite by a fellow forumer. That's pretty awesome.
Who would that be? I don't see another post ten seconds after either of yours, and I certainly wasn't calling you a hypocrite in any way. Quite the opposite. Interesting posts.

But I'm still wondering about "substantial content." I guess you're referring to some kind of intellectual content. Can you suggest other anime that have what you're looking for? I think I personally often find overt intellectual content rather shallow, but I'm definitely open to being convinced by some example. For depth, I look to emotional content, which I got some of here, in my feelings of the characters' positions at various times.

Or maybe you want a less linear plot? Not sure how that creates substantial content, although it can create tension and expectation to make us more involved. Maybe that's all you're saying about that.

I must admit that I am fine with escapist fiction. I don't see much else in the vast majority of anime. Let's see: Simoun had more. Hitohira had some deep personal and emotional aspects. Eve no Jikan is serious fiction. Death Note was just intellectually tricky escapist fiction, as far as I could tell.
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Old 2009-10-01, 22:44   Link #2434
Lady Orihime
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manic View Post
hrmmm well good news is my friend finished his edited version of this ep and is available for download. So hurray for the non-beetrained ending.

i gotta say to that its a pretty satisfactory ending when the retarded shit doesnt happen
Yup! You should ask all the people I've sent my edit to ^.^

Mine will also be up on Megavideo, so if anyone just wants to watch it and and not want to download it, it'll be in my signature once it's up ^_^
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Old 2009-10-02, 00:02   Link #2435
[DOT].L
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo View Post
Who would that be? I don't see another post ten seconds after either of yours, and I certainly wasn't calling you a hypocrite in any way. Quite the opposite. Interesting posts.

But I'm still wondering about "substantial content." I guess you're referring to some kind of intellectual content. Can you suggest other anime that have what you're looking for? I think I personally often find overt intellectual content rather shallow, but I'm definitely open to being convinced by some example. For depth, I look to emotional content, which I got some of here, in my feelings of the characters' positions at various times.

Or maybe you want a less linear plot? Not sure how that creates substantial content, although it can create tension and expectation to make us more involved. Maybe that's all you're saying about that.

I must admit that I am fine with escapist fiction. I don't see much else in the vast majority of anime. Let's see: Simoun had more. Hitohira had some deep personal and emotional aspects. Eve no Jikan is serious fiction. Death Note was just intellectually tricky escapist fiction, as far as I could tell.
Substantialilty to me means the ability of a fictional endeavor to allow its viewers to walk away from it with something(s) to think about whose nature is rooted in the human condition and/or human reality after all is said and done. It doesn't necessarily have to be intellectual.

I think I should make clear the point that substantiality doesn't equate to quality. Take the example of Evangelion. It's throws around a lot of hefty ideas, but I feel its choice of storytelling style detracts from its overall quality by being overwhelmingly ambiguous and unnecessarily cryptic since it hampers the fiction's reach to a broader audience. By contrast, a series like Gurren Lagann doesn't play around much with abstract conceptualizations, but is arguably on par with Evangelion in terms of overall quality because what it lack in substance it makes up for in style and accessibility. Gurren Lagann also happens to be an exceptionally good example for the creative use of linear storytelling. Those watching know the general progressive direction of the plot, but that's all they know. By doing so Gurren Lagann managed to retain a strong suspense hook that remained throughout most of the series.

Phantom's approach to linearity is much more methodical and by the book. It's like driving down the long, straight stretch of a desert highway. One's progression is laid out bare in front of one's eyes, but an occasionally glance to the side now and then reveals an oddly shaped cactus or two. As such, Phantom doesn't hit the point where it becomes boring and tedious, so its performance is still satisfactory. Gurren's analogy would be something like driving down the same highway at night with no other light sources save for one's headlights and a map. The darkness provides the perfect cover for nocturnal desert creatures (plot twists and revelations) to catch you by surprise, but the map shows the definitive way in which one's vehicle will travel.

To extend your observation about escapist fiction, it's probably safe to assume over 30 to 40 percent of all world publications in circulation are purely escapist. I fully acknowledge escapist fiction's existence as a genre and that it has its place in literature. At the same time, I hold fast to the notion that if one's going to write escapist fiction, at least try to do it very well in the technical sense since there's essentially nothing meaningful to it other than for it to serve as a worthwhile temporary retreat for those who're looking for some downtime from the realities of human social life.

Last edited by [DOT].L; 2009-10-02 at 14:33.
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Old 2009-10-02, 04:03   Link #2436
stormy001_M1A2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikaMiaka View Post
I'll tell you why people may think it is a bad ending:

It was a bad ending because it was unnecessary.

Did he really have to die? Did he really have to? Really?

I am waiting for a sequel where Ein/Elen goes on a rampage and destroys Long Purple Hair Guy, takes over Inferno, stumbles upon Scythe's work and makes a dozen Reijis. Then, I guess his death is necessary. Hah.
Yes, because of theme of series is all about karma, you got what you deserve for what you have done is the crux of the story here. That what makes the ending so emotional and beautiful, it gives so much meaning to the conclusion. Just like Homer's Odyssey is awesome because the characters died a tragic poetry like Achilles for example. I would consider Reiji is like Achilles, a supreme warrior that inhuman in his rampage at first but ultimately humbled by his own flaws as a human and die for it, since he already found it in the end. A meaningful and powerful pathos. The writer(s) nail it perfectly, much to my satisfaction.

Elen/Ein has no reason to go rampage since she is satisfied with new found her identity and memories thanks to humane Reiji. She is content to live her life quietly or wait for retribution for her history as Phantom which shown in the end where she lie dead on the quiet plains of Mongolia, staring at sunset with small smile on her lips forever. She found her peace within herself and willing to face death for her past deeds. That is pretty brave of her, to be honest. Perhaps too, it would explain why she is giggling as she saw the assassin in the end.
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Old 2009-10-02, 04:32   Link #2437
ac195
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Join Date: Jul 2009
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How many times do we have to say it:

Title: Phantom ~ REQUIEM for the Phantom ~
First OP song: KARMA
Dead Key Characters: McCunnen, Lizzie, CAL
Last ED song: Transparent

With all that foreshadowing... the ending fits perfectly. Once again, this is Phantom: Requiem for the Phantom and not Phantom - Phantom of Inferno.
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Old 2009-10-02, 06:54   Link #2438
Nayrael
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Quote:
With all that foreshadowing... the ending fits perfectly. Once again, this is Phantom: Requiem for the Phantom and not Phantom - Phantom of Inferno.
This.
The ending of anime is perfect and no other ending from VN would fit it better IMO (I'll explain in detail why I think so once I find more free time). I am just glad that Beetrain decided to not end the show with a nicer ending because of fanservice.
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Old 2009-10-02, 08:01   Link #2439
The1
Relentless sinner
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: In between demanted fantasies
What I've felt
What I've known
Never shined through in what I've shown
Never be
Never see
Won't see what might have been
What I've felt
What I've known
Never shined through in what I've shown
Never free
Never me

The Reiji i know trough a well known chorus.


*cries*
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Old 2009-10-02, 08:14   Link #2440
kitten320
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikaMiaka View Post
I'll tell you why people may think it is a bad ending:

It was a bad ending because it was unnecessary.

Did he really have to die? Did he really have to? Really?

I am waiting for a sequel where Ein/Elen goes on a rampage and destroys Long Purple Hair Guy, takes over Inferno, stumbles upon Scythe's work and makes a dozen Reijis. Then, I guess his death is necessary. Hah.
And why was it unnecessary? He would have to pay for his actions sooner or later. Inferno was after him, he would get killed anyway. Animators decided to kill him now, probably signaling that there will be no season 2.

And even though I like Elen, having second season only with her will be a bit boring There are no phantoms to stop her. Unless that guy in carriage was a secret Scythes child who is Phantom 0
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