Sword Art Online - Episode 18 Discussion / Poll

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

You know, going by that, Asuna and Kirito hardly ever spent time either up till their marriage.

Getting together once in a while to fight bosses doesn't count as spending time.

So again, what is the difference?

I don't think there really needs to be a difference at that point in time. Even Asuna acknowledges that she hardly knows anything about the boy at that point.

That said, they've seen eachother more often than 'once in a while'. More than the 'twice in their lives' with Liz.

Also, traumatic experience.

[willx]

Originally Posted by Dengar

I don't think there really needs to be a difference at that point in time. Even Asuna acknowledges that she hardly knows anything about the boy at that point.

That said, they've seen eachother more often than 'once in a while'. More than the 'twice in their lives' with Liz.

Also, traumatic experience.

Unfortunately traumatic experiences are likely to create false feelings of closeness .. but oh well, it's an anime, no need to show what happens after you get the "Good End"

I know this is an Ep. 18 discussion.. but this convo reminds me of how awkward it made me feel to watch two 15/16 year old kids play house with Yui..

Reply hazy, try again

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Dengar

That said, they've seen eachother more often than 'once in a while'. More than the 'twice in their lives' with Liz.

A blacksmith is like a electrician or a plumber or a mechanic- everybody's looking for a good one, and once you find that someone you'll stick to their service.

You saying that Kirito doesn't need to repair gear, which would be damaged more often than encountering boss fights ?

I hope you don't intent to use the 'but we never see it happen on-screen' argument.

[Vmem]

Originally Posted by Dauerlutscher

To sum it up. They loved an image they created but not the real Kirito because the basicelly knew nothing about him.

this statement actually sums it up rather well. The key is that as long as Kirito meets with these girls only once in a while and do not interact with them for prolonged periods of time, they'll continue to love him. this is exactly what we see

[Znail]

There is also the question of what you need to know to love someone? For instance so didn't Kirito and Asuna know each others RL names when they got married in game, but on the other hand so would the actual names hardly be a deciding factor on if they would love each other or not. When it comes down to it so is there rather few details that matter, unless $ income or other details are what matters to you.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Trajan

In SAO, if you are a teenage girl and a decent-looking boy does something nice for you, your vagina apparently compels you to be attracted to him. The identity of your gender, not your identity as an individual is the more determinative factor. Of course, some will state this is not about gender, but about the girls falling for the protagonist. But if it's not a gender issue, then where are the guys who are attracted to Kirito?

You didn't pick up on the hints they were giving about Klein? I suppose it was just enough to be fodder for some slash fiction, and not so much that they'd make a whole episode about it.

Originally Posted by Trajan

Further, the fan-service in SAO has been used to sexualize only the female characters. One specific example is the pre and post-coital sex scenes between Kirito and Asuna. If I remember correctly, she is the only one shown in her underwear pre-bed, and post-bed she is naked and Kirito is in all his clothes. Sexualizing the female character through nudity while at the same time keeping the male clothed is a subtle way of nudging the audience to see the female as a sexual object and not the man.

For two more examples, we've seen both Silica and Suguha less than fully clothed in bed, but as far as I can recall, Kirito has been fully "covered up" by clothing any time we've seen him in bed.

So the problem would be solved if they "balanced" the equation by including more sexual fanservice of guys? Even in the name of "equality", do you think that the show's target audience would appreciate this? I suppose you could argue that this fanservice shouldn't be there in the first place, and that all fanservice is sexist (I suppose it is), but if you're going to have sexual fanservice I think you're going to try to appeal to your target audience. The opposite of this trend also exists too -- bishounen shows with a female protagonist surrounded by a lot of hot eligible bachelors. Obviously it's objectifying, but this sort of fanservice is designed to appeal to the existing tastes of the audience. I think most of the audience will already see females as the sexual object, and not the man. Not necessarily disagreeing that the show reinforces this all in all, but I think they are mostly reinforcing the audience's existing tastes rather than trying to specifically discriminate.

Originally Posted by Trajan

Finally, the portrayal of female leadership in SAO has consistently reinforced gender stereotypes. If you are a woman in a non-traditional female leadership role, either you are a bad person (Rosalia), bad things will happen to you (Griselda), or it will be too much for your little female heart to bear (Asuna). However, if you stay home and take care of the kids (Sasha), you'll be just fine in the end.

It's not like the men in this story are set free of stereotypes either or that much better off. Kirito is (at least was) a brooding loner who thinks with his sword rather than his brain. Most of the men in leadership are jerks and/or possessive douchebags. If they're not jerks, then they're plain idiots, like most of the Army guys. So I'm not really sure if the show is full of "good role models" for either gender; again, most of the characters are just plot fodder and exist fairly strictly within established gender stereotypes.


Basically, I think the level of conversation you're having here could be had about just about every anime series, and that's not necessarily a problem. Someone could argue that almost all anime reinforces gender stereotypes on some level. But I don't think this show is being particularly egregious or blatant in its portrayal, and I don't think it's doing it with a specific intention of putting women down. I suppose the show contains elements that are designed to pander to the target audience's expected tastes, as most shows do.

[kyp275]

tbh, I think some people are just over-analyzing things and seeing stuff that really isn't there.

Part of the reasonI think is that some are anime-only viewers, while others have read the novels, and so have a greater understanding of the characters and a broader view of the overall story, which IMO would really help to address the concerns some have.

Ultimately though, I'm not entirely sure just what exactly are people expecting, affirmative action across all stories for everything? should we have a male and female protagonist and antagonist from every race, creed, ethnicity, sexual orientation, body type, social status, nationality? is that what people want

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by kyp275

Ultimately though, I'm not entirely sure just what exactly are people expecting, affirmative action across all stories for everything? should we have a male and female protagonist and antagonist from every race, creed, ethnicity, sexual orientation, body type, social status, nationality? is that what people want

Two of every animal please.

[Oroboro]

Originally Posted by Trajan

Further, the fan-service in SAO has been used to sexualize only the female characters. One specific example is the pre and post-coital sex scenes between Kirito and Asuna. If I remember correctly, she is the only one shown in her underwear pre-bed, and post-bed she is naked and Kirito is in all his clothes. Sexualizing the female character through nudity while at the same time keeping the male clothed is a subtle way of nudging the audience to see the female as a sexual object and not the man.

Yknow I was thinking about that scene, and rather than just audience pandering, it seems indicative of an actual in-narrative reason, namely the idea that Asuna is actually more comfortable with the idea of sex than Kirito. She's the one who misinterprets Kirito's intentions, is okay with it anyway, and instigates it even after the truth comes out. Which is pretty much the exact opposite of how Japanese media tends to treat female sexuality.

Comparatively, Kirito's situations reminds me of some fat kids I knew growing up, they'd wear shirts in the pool because they were too embarrassed to take them off. Not saying Kirito is fat, or unattractive by any means, but behind all of his heroic badassery, there still beats the heart of an awkward loser who's' only good at playing videogames.

...
Or maybe it was just fanservice and pandering to the audience. Whichever.

[Dengar]

Or maybe it was just cold.

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

A blacksmith is like a electrician or a plumber or a mechanic- everybody's looking for a good one, and once you find that someone you'll stick to their service.

You saying that Kirito doesn't need to repair gear, which would be damaged more often than encountering boss fights ?

I hope you don't intent to use the 'but we never see it happen on-screen' argument.

What doesn't happen onscreen, is Liz drooling over Kirito. You would think that if that was actually a thing that is happening, they would show it.

Besides, it's not like Lizbeth is the only blacksmith in the world.

Also, implying Asuna and Kirito only met for boss fights is... Uhhh... Hold on while I think of the right word... Well it falls in the same line as only focusing on one line of my post and ignoring the others which are just as important to my argument.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by kyp275

Part of the reasonI think is that some are anime-only viewers, while others have read the novels, and so have a greater understanding of the characters and a broader view of the overall story, which IMO would really help to address the concerns some have.

Just want to say that I'm pretty sick and tired of hearing this excuse pop up all the time whenever anyone is having a conversation about the anime. It doesn't matter what the novels do; the anime can still be discussed as it is because it's its own thing. Yes it's interesting to compare to the novels, and perhaps if you're talking about the "intent of the author" you have to go to the source. But I think it's perfectly possible for anime-only viewers to have conversations about their anime-only impressions and not constantly be told that "they just don't understand" or that "the novels fix everything". This continues to give the in-my-opinion negative and false impression that the anime cannot stand as its own work, which I think is absolutely not the case. If novel readers can't separate the novels from the anime enough to have a reasonable conversation about what's going on in the show, then they simply don't need to contribute to the conversation. This is an anime discussion thread, and no novel experience is required to be a full participant in the conversation.

[Anh_Minh]

Either way, what's lacking to turn it into a harem anime is screentime for the girls. Not feelings on their part.

[Insane]

Okay so . . . Kirito is a motherfucking badass with capacity to kick the living crap outta anything. He's so damn cool, a perfect boyfriend, and capable of mastering everything so quickly. Nobody can beat him in the game unless he's the game creator itself.

Is it just me or that Kirito is too . . . perfect? Somehow a MC that is too perfect to the point of nearly invincible just feels plain to me.

[NoemiChan]

Originally Posted by Insane

Is it just me or that Kirito is too . . . perfect?

Kirito ain't perfect cause he has to pass numerous struggles from SAO now in ALO... I think it's more of luck, determination and charisma.

[arekwibowo]

Originally Posted by Insane

Okay so . . . Kirito is a motherfucking badass with capacity to kick the living crap outta anything. He's so damn cool, a perfect boyfriend, and capable of mastering everything so quickly. Nobody can beat him in the game unless he's the game creator itself.

Is it just me or that Kirito is too . . . perfect? Somehow a MC that is too perfect to the point of nearly invincible just feels plain to me.

What's wrong with him being such perfect guy? He's a protagonist we need to running this kind of show. I'm sure that all of us here are fucking sick with weak, stupid, useless, beta-type MC who can't do a thing when the situations arise and only leave the matter to his harem which is pathetic. At least he obtained his power sheerly through hard battles and tearjerking experiences, not merely "power-up" out of nowhere-kind of development just like Hagure Yuusha or Campione that feel very plain instead.

[Krono]

Originally Posted by Insane

Okay so . . . Kirito is a motherfucking badass with capacity to kick the living crap outta anything. He's so damn cool, a perfect boyfriend, and capable of mastering everything so quickly. Nobody can beat him in the game unless he's the game creator itself.

Is it just me or that Kirito is too . . . perfect? Somehow a MC that is too perfect to the point of nearly invincible just feels plain to me.

No, being strong in combat, reasonably smart, and reasonably competent at dealing with a girlfriend does not make him perfect. It makes him a skilled gamer, and ordinary guy functioning on a normal level.

People are just too used to main characters that: are either idiots only skilled at combat, have no interest in woman, or are losers unskilled at pretty much anything, and interested in woman but unable to deal with them, or paired with nut job tsunderes that are near impossible to deal with. By comparison a main character that's competent within his fields (geek, hardcore gamer), and both interested in women and capable of dealing with them, and not paired with one impossible to deal with is a rarity that seems like he's perfect just because he isn't being given the cliche flaws.

That's not to say he's perfect, or unbeatable, nor are his social skills perfect. For example, at the start, he was both selfish and cowardly. Ditched Klein because he wanted to grab the best advantage he could, and was afraid of the responsibility of trying to protect Klein's friends in addition to Klein. His fear of rejection had him lying to the Black Cats, and resulted in them being overconfident, and triggering a trap he couldn't effectively warn them against without revealing his lies, which again, he was afraid to do. He largely grew out of the selfishness and cowardice, though the cowardice still reared it's head just before the floor 75 fight, but in turn it was replaced by a certain degree of arrogance and cockiness. 9 times out of 10, he can back up that cockiness, but it still blows up in his face from time to time.

[kyp275]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

But I think it's perfectly possible for anime-only viewers to have conversations about their anime-only impressions and not constantly be told that "they just don't understand" or that "the novels fix everything". This continues to give the in-my-opinion negative and false impression that the anime cannot stand as its own work, which I think is absolutely not the case. If novel readers can't separate the novels from the anime enough to have a reasonable conversation about what's going on in the show, then they simply don't need to contribute to the conversation. This is an anime discussion thread, and no novel experience is required to be a full participant in the conversation.

That was not my intention, I was merely trying to point out the difference in perspective between the two. Those who have read the novels can't simply just "unread" them, and when the topic goes into abstract areas like author intent etc., that frame of reference is going to be there. It's not a matter of whether one is superior to the other, it's just that one has seen what happens next is all.

Unless you're saying that those who have read the novel simply shouldn't participate in the discussions or have to pretend to argue for something they know isn't true.

[Hiroi Sekai]

Series is slowing down for me personally. I'm not one who needs something spectacular to dazzle me into liking a series, but I really think this series needs a proper denouement soon.

[Chiibi]

Meh....to this episode. Annoying Suguha fanservice was annoying....but I have a tendency to dislike really over-developed female characters in anime because it's just......you know, "what the hell!? Why are they so BIG!?"
And I don't care what thing weighs so heavily on your mind: we girls do not forget to put PANTS on when there are men in the house!

One part I liked about the episode was how Sugou bragged about how "eeeeevil" he was to upset Kirito about the "wedding", no doubt to make Asuna cry/ get more scared.

BUT SHE DIDN'T. All she focused on was "Kirito's alive!" And she wasn't angry or scared at all. So now she's planning her escape because she's motivated!

Talk about backfiring. Way to go, DUMBASS (Sugou).

[Dr. Casey]

Originally Posted by Chiibi

Meh....to this episode. Annoying Suguha fanservice was annoying....but I have a tendency to dislike really over-developed female characters in anime because it's just......you know, "what the hell!? Why are they so BIG!?"

You ever watch Kyoukai Senjou no Horizon?
I never thought I'd meet a pair of breasts I didn't like, but these things are just gross.

Spoiler for lols:

So this doesn't get deleted off-topicness, do you hope that Suguha eventually returns Recon's feelings?