2010-05-18, 07:28 | Link #23441 |
Metal Gear!?
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Tampa
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I guess I misinterpreted that. However I'll disagree on some of her actions being on the same level as Lelouch. Lelouch overall actions>whatever Kallen ended up doing the series in my opinion. If this or would have happened not being that important to me.
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2010-05-18, 08:13 | Link #23443 | |
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And I suppose this is a matter of opinion, but to me, murder is murder. Following orders, opposite sides of the battlefield or whatever, she still went out and killed people of her own freewill. What she did is understandable, but not really justifiable. And to be honest, the Black Knights pre-Zero were all in all less moral than Lelouch, I thought. At least when he did something (that probably involved killing people), he actually had a reason for it and accomplished something. All they were going to do at the beginning of the series was kill a lot of people, only to be brushed away by Britannia like pests. They'd have made no difference other than killing a lot of innocent people. |
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2010-05-18, 08:22 | Link #23444 | |
Shameless Fangirl
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Age: 33
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2010-05-18, 10:29 | Link #23445 | |
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Suzaku was an enemy, but Shirley and Lelouch were not. She had nothing to gain from being in Ashford and was only there to fulfil Naoto's dream of her being in school. She could have just judo-chopped them and run away, since killing them in either case would make her a suspect, bring up an investigation, and likely reveal her Japanese heritage, thus getting her booted from Ashford anyway. |
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2010-05-18, 10:45 | Link #23446 | |
Pancakes
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: In Your House. No, really, look properly.
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Not exactly the same situation as Kallen, but I think she sees it as more of a killing sport, fighting them Britannians, she actually believed that Britannia deserved to be knocked out of Japan for all the shit they did, and in that respect, she is right. Britannia were treating the Elevens like shit, and raping Japan of all her resources. And umm, just to point out, there were NO Black Knights prior to them meeting Zero. Before they met Zero, they were just a rag-tag group of mercenaries who would kill anybody who get in the way as long as they got a few Britannian heads. Zero, in a perverse way, actually made them more humane. Kallen also wouldn't kill Britannian civilians for fun...she accepts it as collateral damage, which is understandable.
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2010-05-18, 11:16 | Link #23447 | ||
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And yes, murder is still murder if it has good repercussions because it's still taking someone's life. That part's not debatable. What I think you mean is whether or not it's alright if it's 'for the greater good', which is, as usual, subjective, and depends on which morality code you happen to live your life by, if any. And who says you have to kill Hitler? Just make sure he gets into art college and we're holocaust free~ Not going to get into the changing history and determinism stuff here. I should really stop trying to bring philosophy into an anime forum. Quote:
And really, it wasn't 'collateral damage' before Zero, because they never actually accomplished anything. All the people that might have died as a result of their actions died for nothing. |
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2010-05-18, 11:53 | Link #23448 | ||
Shameless Fangirl
Join Date: Sep 2008
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Kallen was not achieving anything through the means she used except endangering innocents and helping to cause the Shinjuku massacre. All the characters in Code Geass have their reasons. That does not make them morally correct. Quote:
And no, I don't think you can compare pointless violence and showing your dissatisfaction that way to going back in time and killing Hitler.
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2010-05-18, 13:08 | Link #23450 |
Srsly ?
Artist
Join Date: Apr 2008
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Lawl. Same people back to the good old Kallen is a murderer when the girl only killed on battlefield.
She never killed anyone out of it, Suzaku was the only serious possibility, Shirley being a comic relief and Lelouch...she could have only threaten him for all we know. Really, Kallen as a murderer. What a joke. / Back to studies
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2010-05-18, 13:18 | Link #23451 | ||
Shameless Fangirl
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2010-05-18, 13:31 | Link #23452 |
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Location: State of Clarity
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I think Kallen failed in becoming a murderer during the R1. There were some promising situations, but due to this or that she refused. The final scene with Suzaku proves that she simply couldn't do something like that in ANY circumstances. Cute Kallen =)
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2010-05-18, 13:42 | Link #23453 | ||
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Location: UK
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I don't understand why people are getting so defensive. She was a murderer. So what? Just about everyone in whole damn show was. No one's saying it makes her a less worthy character or whatever. Don't cover up a characters flaws, their flaws are what make them more interesting and human. |
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2010-05-18, 14:27 | Link #23456 |
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Join Date: Oct 2008
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I'm sorry, but after reading most of the comments here I just have to ask, what do you guys really think kallen and her group should have done before Lelouch came along? Sit on their thumbs and pray to Kami-sama for help? Or hope the Britannians were just going to be nice and at the very least leave them alone? Very doubtful, considering how precious land is and there is a profit to be made off of the expendable lower class. Maybe they could hope someone else would do the dirty work, which in my view is much worse and cowardly than what they really did. I think we keep forgetting that if no one resisted against Britannia, nothing was going to change. As a matter of fact, things would get worse. Hell without the "terrorists" how the hell was Lelouch ever going to start his rebellion in the first place?
As far as civilians are concerned, it sucks that they keep getting mixed up in the war and end up killed, but it can't be avoided. The battles are taking place in Japan. Not some secluded area or mountain top, Japan. It's not like anyone can resist against the controlling power and kindly ask people to leave or ask the Britanian military to fight them in the woods or something. That's just stupid and suicidal. Since we like to mention how much more humane Lelouch is compared to the likes of Kallen and her group where he was trying to tell them they shouldn't harm civilians, like that is even possible in their situation, guess what happens in the Black Knight's first military operation under his guidance. Civilians got hurt in Narita. Remember, the first few missions Zero had the Black Knights do were small, rescues and taking down drug dealers, vigilantism in other words. That's why he is so shook up about the event because he realizes that sometimes innocents will get hurt and there is nothing you can do about it except move on. Hell, when he is in the shower beating himself up about it, he remembers Kallen's rebuttle, about how it's easier said than done to prevent casulties, to his demand for her group to not harm civilians . That's the sad truth about war. You can do everything humanly possible and innocents will still get caught up and die. You should also consider that even though Kallen and her group knows that defeating Britannia is out of the question, because you know, they aren't retarded, they are fighting to contribute to the larger resistance movement and giving the opportunity for the Lelouches of the world to actually make a difference. Hell you need to consider that if Kallen was not fighting, Lelouch would have been captured by the Lancelot in Shinjuku or any other battle. No Lelouch of the Rebellion... All hail Britannia, intrumentality, and blaw blaw blaw. I think the saying goes, "If good men do nothing, that is evil enough." As for the "murder is murder" crowd, yeah true, but remember just because we aren't doing the killing ourselves doesn't mean that someone else isn't doing it on our behalf so we can be safe. Ignorance about that truth doesn't make us any better than the people that kill. Nor should we condemn those that do and take the high ground just because we don't. Unless we actively try to stop our military and police from doing what is needed, which then kudos to you. Personally I can't even begin to ever claim to be more moral than the "terrorists". I've never had my home taken away from me and had my people subjected to being expendable slaves while people who could care less about what I've been through will go shopping or sweet school trips while the ghetto and the proof of my suffering is right in front of their faces. I feel bad enough when I'm with some native americans that agonize over their homeland and people while all I can do is shrug my shoulders and say, "Sorry, but better you than me I guess..." What I'm trying to say is we should get off of our pedastals and realize that even though the Japanese are causing harm and fighting a futile battle, they have no other choice unless they want to suffer and vanish. As for murderer=killer, I find that really debateable, but that's more in line with a philosophy class. I would consider Kallen and any other soldier as a killer. Hell I'm a killer because I have squished my fair share of bugs, eaten meat, and plucked a flower. Being a killer is a vague and broad term. As long as you end life in any way, you are a killer. Murderer, that's where it gets tricky. What may count as a murderer to you is a killer to someone else. I don't think Kallen is a murderer because she is in a situation that requires to kill. She has no choice. Hell if should doesn't kill the enemy she allows her allies to be killed which is an indirect kill. Damned if she does, damned if she doesn't. A murderer to me is someone that goes out of his way to end a life with no reasons but their own such as rage, contracts, desire, and fun. |
2010-05-18, 14:44 | Link #23457 | |
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Hey, this is the first time I've been able to really understand Suzaku's PoV on this issue. Still don't completely agree with him, but hey it's nice to understand. /random |
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2010-05-18, 14:48 | Link #23458 | ||
Spinning Lotus
Join Date: Jul 2008
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2010-05-18, 15:00 | Link #23460 |
Spinning Lotus
Join Date: Jul 2008
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With that attitude what's the point of even trying? If you try and fail, at least you tried. Never try and you fail by default. That's Suzaku's problem. He's too scared to make the hard choices and takes the easy way out.
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