2010-05-18, 18:58 | Link #10161 | |
Endless Witch-Doctor
Join Date: Mar 2010
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Yes, a lot of my theory is because of coincidence or circumstance, but that's the exact reason I believe in it. Since it is highly likely that Shannon = Beatrice, and Shannon is dead at the first twilight, the rest of the Episode is supposed to be different from the original plan the Beatrice-faction had. Although there is something strange... if EP1 is so easy that we've narrowed it down to Shannon and Kanon faking their deaths.... the difficulty for EP1 is "standard". EP2's difficulty is "first-rate" and EP3's difficulty is "equal". Ryukishi said that he made EP3 easier because EP2 was too difficult. I took this to mean that EP3 is easier than EP1, but I'm not so sure now. |
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2010-05-18, 19:08 | Link #10162 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
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Furthermore, that assertion has quite a bit of problems, not the least being that Battler saw George and Kanon together in Episode 1, at least. |
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2010-05-18, 19:11 | Link #10163 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
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I find George as one of the ideal culprits (according to Episode 6 he has a bit of overconfident view over everyone else, he can lead decently in problematic scenarios, has stated he could kill everyone if he needed to, even though that was a fantasy scene). All I need is for him to make even the slightest remark on how he thinks he would be the ideal head (it only needs to be a passing thought, that's all) and I'm convinced. I don't think Kinzo would've named George as the next head. If he did, what's the point of the Epitaph? The only normal theory for it is that solving it grants the solver headship and the ten tonnes of gold. However, I would accept George having a delusion at one point where he believes Kinzo told him he was to become the next head, since it seems everyone in Umineko's had a delusion of Kinzo or one point of another. Also, like Maria, George may have just inherited the fascination with the supernatural from Kinzo. Though he does possess quite a bit of knowledge on it, which is why I think he researched about ways to make it seem like the deaths were caused by a witch. Most of the knowledge is stuff he could've easily just stumbled across while researching things like magical circles. |
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2010-05-18, 19:18 | Link #10164 | |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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2010-05-18, 19:24 | Link #10165 | |
Maelstorm-Fenrir
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2010-05-18, 19:30 | Link #10166 |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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I don't think Shkanon has much to do with his sin either but I'll take a wack at it.
To Battler anything related to Shannon and Jessica would somehow have George connected to it. He even says this much in episode 2 when Beatrice suggests to use Jessica as a culprit. He automatically thought that if Jessica is involved than that means George would also be involved, which to me says that George and Jessica were once very close. likewise if my theory on the sin that it's against Maria were true. George would also be involved since he cares for her. Oh and I don't beleive the person who is sinned against necessarily has to remember the sin. If the murders and the Beatrice disguise was created because of his sin somebody has to remember, but the person who he sinned against may have already forgotten about it. The only thing that has to happen is that the person who remembers acts on the knowledge of his sin.
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2010-05-18, 19:48 | Link #10167 | |
Maelstorm-Fenrir
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OH my..... I just found a huge reason for Shakannon if the sin is against Battler. Shannon heard a rumor about if the item that is in the shrine is broken your wish will be greated by Beatrice in return for doing this for her. Shannon wishes Battler would return, when she shouts "Grant my wish Beatrice!" Her wish is not granted and she gives up hope on magic and such, and creates her Beato friend to cope, before she falls for George. She at first falls for George just because he is the only guy to treat her with kindness and show any interest in her besides Battler. But she eventally does actually fall for George. The only time she cares about Battler's sin to her is in ep4, so clearly something big happens in that ep, which changes things. Battler leaves due to his dad having sex with Kyrie. And this caused Shannon to go emo, because the one person she thinks holds some compassion for her, betrays her hopes, and makes it seem like he doesn't care at all for her. In ep6 were shown a scene where Battler is asked what kind of girl he likes. He says blonde and busty, or maybe like Jessica. Or something like that. He is saying this to Shannon, because he is too nervous to confess his love for her right there. Shannon being emotionally fragile thinks that her hopes of Battler liking her are destroyed. But her hopes are restored later that day when he makes that promise to her. So she is even more crushed when he doesn't come back and really does think he didn't care about her, and thinks what he said to her was true. That is my theory of Battler's sin, and here is where Kanon comes in. To put up with her terrible sadness she creates Kanon, to be her friend. Genji and Kumaswa both know the truth, but they hide it and make other think Kanon exists. Jessica hears about Kanon through them, but doesn't meet him. Then Jessica talks to Shannon about wishing Kanon would come to her thing at school. Shannon decides to pretend to be 'Kanon' to please Jessica. This is why when the show is on 'Kanon' hides in the shadows. 'Kanon' rejects Jessica's feelings because she knows Kanon doesn't actually exist. She pretends to be Kanon on the day of the confrence because Natsuhi requests both Shannon and Kanon. The piece Kanon can only die two ways, when Jessica dies; for there is no reason for Shannon to pretend to be Kanon anymore. Or when Shannon dies. dah... it is making sense.... |
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2010-05-18, 19:51 | Link #10168 | |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
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This way, one of those basic assumptions would be that someone is actually dead at all.
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2010-05-18, 19:59 | Link #10169 |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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The chain was set and cut by Genji's group after the murder occurred. However, this doesn't mean that Genji's group killed them. No one has a solid alibi for the period during which the murders occurred.
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2010-05-18, 20:05 | Link #10170 | |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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As a comedy theory I'd find it funny if Battler's sin was making fun of somebody's favorite mystery book. Plus 1 for the fake death camp!
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2010-05-18, 20:11 | Link #10171 | |
Maelstorm-Fenrir
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How well it fits.. kind of scares me... I want Kanon to be real... : ( OH well time to see if it solves everything... |
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2010-05-18, 20:24 | Link #10172 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
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2010-05-18, 20:31 | Link #10174 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
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And we see in Episode 5 that both Kanon and Shannon were in on Kinzo's death being hidden. Natsuhi had to have spoken to both of them at the same time. |
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2010-05-18, 20:46 | Link #10175 | |
Maelstorm-Fenrir
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Kanon sees the phantom Kinzo in ep5. Bern suggests that maybe Kanon also told that lie. But maybe; Kanon doesn't exist and Natsuhi is actually by herself, or with Shannon. 34 just shows it as Kanon to try and trick Bern. |
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2010-05-18, 21:19 | Link #10176 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
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This thread needs some more non-Shkanon. |
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2010-05-18, 21:30 | Link #10177 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
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Once again, Occam's Razor on Shkanon. It needlessly complicates things, requires several additional explanations to reconcile its existence, and is totally unnecessary for all mysteries. It's so unlikely that Natsuhi would allow a fake servant to exist on her schedule. Therefore, it's much more likely that she didn't because Kanon is real.
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2010-05-18, 21:39 | Link #10178 | |
Maelstorm-Fenrir
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I think Occam's Razor is kind of dumb for mystery. I searched it and this is what I found it meant for writing. Occam's razor has been recommended as a measure of how good the plot of a novel is. Simple and logical plots are easy to explain and this enhances the experience of the reader. The writer is also less likely to make an error while explaining the plot to the reader. That is stupid.. it basically means a mystery can't have a complex answer for it to be good. I hate easy answer mysteries... I want them to be hard... |
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2010-05-18, 21:54 | Link #10179 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
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Occam's Razor only works if what you conclude to be the simplest possible answer is in fact, the correct answer. With Umineko, the existence of magic complicates things so much, that when you try to remove the complications, you're more likely than not to miss the correct answer entirely. Example: Erika. Out of the evidence she gathered, ignoring things like magic and love, she concluded that the simplest answer was that Natsuhi was the culprit. Then again, in that situation, the people she thought Natsuhi had killed weren't really killed when she decided to pin the blame on her. In short, if you're going to apply Occam's Razor, you should try and think like Ryuukishi, since he's the one who wrote this confounded mystery in the first place. Strip away the complications in the same pattern he put them up in. On Shkanon, while it does explain the biggest riddles of Episode 6, it needlessly complicate everything else from every other Episode. It's like saying: "Here, I'll take away your two hardest problems, and instead I'll give you a dozen or two other smaller ones." Unless you can go back and iron out every single detail that complicates Umineko because of Shkanon, I refuse to accept it as a plausible way to solve any mystery. The whole point of an answer is not to create more questions in other places, but create a string of answers which rounds up every question. |
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2010-05-18, 22:00 | Link #10180 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
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A bad story is a story which is too simple, since it cannot enthrall intelligent readers. A bad story is a story which is too complicated, since it cannot keep the readers interested or entertained in the convoluted plot. A good story is a story which is simply complicated, since it enthralls and is understandable. Simple and logical does not mean easy. Logic is the hardest thing to understand in this world sometimes. |
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