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Alchemist007 · 2012-10-16, 23:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr. Casey

Yeah... I can understand disagreeing with Romney's politics (since I disagree with him on some issues myself; I am 100% in favor of gay marriage, and it's a sore point on my end that he is not), but I think the argument that he is socially clumsy or uncharming is completely without merit. I think he is a very likable, charming, engaging man.

I don't think anyone can argue against that. Persona is what sells votes to many people who don't pay attention to politics (but vote anyway...); you should really take in the whole picture: persona, policy, constitution under pressure, etc.

Ithekro · 2012-10-16, 23:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr. Casey

Can we elect Fishnet Girl?

I would need some visual to make light of her.

Dr. Casey · 2012-10-16, 23:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alchemist007

I don't think anyone can argue against that. Persona is what sells votes to many people who don't pay attention to politics (but vote anyway...); you should really take in the whole picture: persona, policy, constitution under pressure, etc.

No, I totally agree. I was just disagreeing with monir's assertion that he's awkward with the general public, and Romney's supposed lack of social grace is something his detractors have very frequently lambasted him for. I just think it's unfair; bash people for their actual faults, not just made up ones. :/ I'm reminded of the petty assholes from the 1980s who called Ronald Reagan Prune Face (A 1st grade insult if I've ever heard one, and a stupid one to boot. Wtf, a guy in his 70s that has wrinkles?!?! What kind of wizardry is this?!?!?!?!?!) Romney might not be a joke a minute, slap-someone-on-the-back-and-ask-how-their-mom-and-dad's-doing guy, but I think he's personable.

Ith - http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...cMF5Ps#t=2309s

Ithekro · 2012-10-17, 00:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xion Valkyrie

That 'someone else' is not going to magically appear at the end of these debates.

Still doesn't mean they are going to vote for either of these two candidates. On my ballot there are a total of six parties represented:

Green Party (Jill Stein/Cheri Honkala)
American Independent Party (Thomas Hoefling/Robert Ornelas)
Republican Party (Mitt Romney/Paul Ryan)
Libertarian Party (Gary Johnson/James P. Gray)
Peace and Freedom Party (Roseanne Barr/Cindy Sheehan)
Democratic Party (Barack Obama/Joseph Biden)

Kaioshin Sama · 2012-10-17, 00:05

The whole "Binders full of women" thing is trending big time right now. Romney may have just entered full blown gaffe territory.

Dr. Casey · 2012-10-17, 00:07

Well, if Obama came under heat for his completely inoffensive 'You didn't build that' speech, I guess it's fair for a bunch of jackasses to do the same to Romney for something that was in no way offensive in context...

Netto Azure · 2012-10-17, 00:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xion Valkyrie

That 'someone else' is not going to magically appear at the end of these debates.

Well the Green party Candidate did try at least.

YouTube

https://youtu.be/yGc9LzOySJs

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

As for the Binders full of women comment, I think it was more of the whole sidestepping of the issue of equal work for equal pay that's the problem in Romney's reply.

Hoping that voluntary equal pay to be effective is just wishful thinking.

Dr. Casey · 2012-10-17, 00:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Netto Azure

Hoping that voluntary equal pay to be effective is just wishful thinking.

I hope that's it, since that is a lot more rational than "Romney very slightly clumsily worded something that amounts to nothing more than a oblique way to prove his point, so let's swoop down on him like a bunch of starving vultures and imply that he meant something which any reasonable person could tell he did not."

Vexx · 2012-10-17, 00:33

The sad thing is that Romney was trying to side-step the "equal pay for equal work" (which he does not support btw) by showing that he was trying to build a "Star Trek Diverse" cabinet as governor. Unfortunately, it came off as "hire sum wimmen!!" rather like a variation on "I haz gay people I talk to, I can't be hating the gay!" That's the perception (since apparently few in the US remain interested in content, its all about perception :P )

He simply has a certain view of women -- a Mormon view to be precise and a fairly traditional one. He shouldn't try to conceal it but if he would take a few simple steps like supporting a law that *should* be an obvious "duh!!!" he'd mitigate that.

There's an interesting documentary called "Race 2012" on PBS. Worth a look, it discusses race, appearance of race, how it affecting politics (particularly the grim future of the GOP if it doesn't drop the racist zealot faction, anti-immigrant, and white supremacists) and the fact of change in racial percentages and multi-racial makeup. Its a broad set of topics but its doing a job of connecting the dots.

Ithekro · 2012-10-17, 00:58

But then what party will all the bigots and racists vote? Or those that are simply that prejudges others based on sterrotypes that have been handed down for generations?

There appear to be a lot of them still...a lot of them with old money.

Jaieni · 2012-10-17, 01:04

If Romney created 25 million new jobs that were taxed at 35%, how much would (on average) would each job have to make a year to cover the current 1.2 trillion dollar deficit?

25,000,000 * 35% * ($/yr) = $1,200,000,000,000

($/yr) = $137,142.86

KiraYamatoFan · 2012-10-17, 01:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by james0246

I didn't get that. Rather, I was upset by Romney telling women they need to go home and make dinner...

Yikes!

Side-stepping the issue of equal pay is bad for any politician I know whenever the issue is raised. But that comment... it's probably the last thing Romney needed to say.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

The whole "Binders full of women" thing is trending big time right now. Romney may have just entered full blown gaffe territory.

As I mentioned earlier, this is not the kind of metaphor any politician can afford to say at this time of a campaign and I'm sure many women are probably very angry about this, especially after what he said about Wal-Mart moms some time before.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vexx

He simply has a certain view of women -- a Mormon view to be precise and a fairly traditional one. He shouldn't try to conceal it but if he would take a few simple steps like supporting a law that *should* be an obvious "duh!!!" he'd mitigate that.

There's an interesting documentary called "Race 2012" on PBS. Worth a look, it discusses race, appearance of race, how it affecting politics (particularly the grim future of the GOP if it doesn't drop the racist zealot faction, anti-immigrant, and white supremacists) and the fact of change in racial percentages and multi-racial makeup. Its a broad set of topics but its doing a job of connecting the dots.

Catholics used to have a particular view about women not so long ago, but they didn't look so bad in politics from what I know. It could be said the same thing about Mormons if they fall upon one who's open-minded, which Romney obviously isn't. Too bad for the man, I'd say because you can't change a politician at that age.

I agree with you about that particular faction in the GOP. No political party can expect to have success when they are not changing anything in order to adapt themselves into a new reality and get more votes. Whether some people here like it or not, I think and I hope that Obama's rise to presidency should be set as an example for the future of how politicians should start off before aiming for presidency. By that, I mean that future politicians should be more in touch with their community, know more about the people they represent, listen more to what they say, and remember where and how they started off. Of course, there will always be the obstacle of big corporations and other businessmen. Still, the more politicians in the future stay in touch with the people, then it would be easier to get votes from middle/low class people (the majority) and apply the required changes in the system.

GundamFan0083 · 2012-10-17, 01:22

This is what's going to become a rallying cry against Obama.
It will take a few days to a week, but it will come to bite him in the ass.

Obama Calls for Renewal of Assault Weapons Ban
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics...t-weapons-ban/

Naturally, Romney's "Binder" comment will haunt him until election day, but independents DO NOT like gun control and therefore I wonder which will be more of a fulcrum for their vote?

Dr. Casey · 2012-10-17, 01:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan

As I mentioned earlier, this is not the kind of metaphor any politician can afford to say at this time of a campaign

And again just like earlier, you don't say what exactly was so bad about the metaphor. It's... a totally inoffensive statement. "We have binders full of women" means "We have binders full of rosters that list the women we employ." That sentence in itself did nothing to marginalize or objectify women, or whatever you're trying to get at. The only way I can see someone taking it offensively is if you're trying to be offended by misconstruing a very clear sentence.

Green² · 2012-10-17, 02:21

When Romney said something about having "binders full of women", I thought he was describing his stash as sorted by blond, brunette, etc. ...and that the qualifications that Romney preferred probably amounted to AA, A, and possibly B. Best guess would be that how he hired had probably went by how he was feeling that time of the day.

Vexx · 2012-10-17, 02:30

The problem with the whole anecdote is simply that it sounded like an executive from the 1970s who was new to the whole "women in the workplace" thing. To *women*, it reeked of "we need some women, hire a few".

Terrible choice of anecdote to sidestep what should be a "duh, wtf?" -> gender-blind meritocratic compensation. My son's band director always said "stupid rules come from the problem that one or more people did something stupid". We have a statistical problem that enough corporations underpay women for the exact same work, same experience, same performance review as men. If compensation were based purely on merit that wouldn't happen - therefore the law. There's no defensible reason for it.

KiraYamatoFan · 2012-10-17, 02:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr. Casey

And again just like earlier, you don't say what exactly was so bad about the metaphor. It's... a totally inoffensive statement. "We have binders full of women" means "We have binders full of rosters that list the women we employ." That sentence in itself did nothing to marginalize or objectify women, or whatever you're trying to get at. The only way I can see someone taking it offensively is if you're trying to be offended by misconstruing a very clear sentence.

I'm not trying anything. Either way, we'll have the answer about this bit in the polls soon.

flying ^ · 2012-10-17, 03:43

... how would you like to have a Green Card to settle in the U.S. the moment you graduate and receive a diploma?
(lib arts need not apply

)

Romney: I want our legal system to work better. I want it to be streamlined. I want it to be clearer. I don't think you have to -- shouldn't have to hire a lawyer to figure out how to get into this country legally. I also think that we should give visas to people -- green cards, rather, to people who graduate with skills that we need. People around the world with accredited degrees in science and math get a green card stapled to their diploma, come to the U.S. of A. We should make sure our legal system works.

SaintessHeart · 2012-10-17, 05:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by flying ^

... how would you like to have a Green Card to settle in the U.S. the moment you graduate and receive a diploma?
(lib arts need not apply

)

Romney: I want our legal system to work better. I want it to be streamlined. I want it to be clearer. I don't think you have to -- shouldn't have to hire a lawyer to figure out how to get into this country legally. I also think that we should give visas to people -- green cards, rather, to people who graduate with skills that we need. People around the world with accredited degrees in science and math get a green card stapled to their diploma, come to the U.S. of A. We should make sure our legal system works.

With Romney as the president and worked underwaged at US$800/month with no risk incentive or OT? No thank you - even our underwaged technicians, mechanics and engineers in where I live get more than that through mandatory risk pay and health allowances.

Ascaloth · 2012-10-17, 05:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by flying ^

... how would you like to have a Green Card to settle in the U.S. the moment you graduate and receive a diploma?
(lib arts need not apply

)

Romney: I want our legal system to work better. I want it to be streamlined. I want it to be clearer. I don't think you have to -- shouldn't have to hire a lawyer to figure out how to get into this country legally. I also think that we should give visas to people -- green cards, rather, to people who graduate with skills that we need. People around the world with accredited degrees in science and math get a green card stapled to their diploma, come to the U.S. of A. We should make sure our legal system works.

Settle in a backward theocratic hellhole where dying people go untreated for lack of health insurance, half the population vilifies scientific and social progress in favour of their fundamentalist perspective, and the richest 1% plunders everything in their sight at the expense of the rest? Pass.

2012-10-17, 00:33	Link #1529
Vexx Obey the Darkly Cute ... Author Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ... Age: 66	The sad thing is that Romney was trying to side-step the "equal pay for equal work" (which he does not support btw) by showing that he was trying to build a "Star Trek Diverse" cabinet as governor. Unfortunately, it came off as "hire sum wimmen!!" rather like a variation on "I haz gay people I talk to, I can't be hating the gay!" That's the perception (since apparently few in the US remain interested in content, its all about perception :P ) He simply has a certain view of women -- a Mormon view to be precise and a fairly traditional one. He shouldn't try to conceal it but if he would take a few simple steps like supporting a law that should be an obvious "duh!!!" he'd mitigate that. There's an interesting documentary called "Race 2012" on PBS. Worth a look, it discusses race, appearance of race, how it affecting politics (particularly the grim future of the GOP if it doesn't drop the racist zealot faction, anti-immigrant, and white supremacists) and the fact of change in racial percentages and multi-racial makeup. Its a broad set of topics but its doing a job of connecting the dots. __________________ "It Really IS Rocket Science", Novel series rough drafts; vol. 1 thru vol. 3 complete Volume 4 in work, Visit the thread for short stories!

2012-10-17, 00:58	Link #1530
Ithekro Gamilas Falls Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Republic of California Age: 46	But then what party will all the bigots and racists vote? Or those that are simply that prejudges others based on sterrotypes that have been handed down for generations? There appear to be a lot of them still...a lot of them with old money. __________________

2012-10-17, 01:22	Link #1533
GundamFan0083 Senior Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: classified	This is what's going to become a rallying cry against Obama. It will take a few days to a week, but it will come to bite him in the ass. Obama Calls for Renewal of Assault Weapons Ban http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics...t-weapons-ban/ Naturally, Romney's "Binder" comment will haunt him until election day, but independents DO NOT like gun control and therefore I wonder which will be more of a fulcrum for their vote? __________________

2012-10-17, 02:30	Link #1536
Vexx Obey the Darkly Cute ... Author Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ... Age: 66	The problem with the whole anecdote is simply that it sounded like an executive from the 1970s who was new to the whole "women in the workplace" thing. To women, it reeked of "we need some women, hire a few". Terrible choice of anecdote to sidestep what should be a "duh, wtf?" -> gender-blind meritocratic compensation. My son's band director always said "stupid rules come from the problem that one or more people did something stupid". We have a statistical problem that enough corporations underpay women for the exact same work, same experience, same performance review as men. If compensation were based purely on merit that wouldn't happen - therefore the law. There's no defensible reason for it. __________________ "It Really IS Rocket Science", Novel series rough drafts; vol. 1 thru vol. 3 complete Volume 4 in work, Visit the thread for short stories!

2012-10-17, 03:43	Link #1538
flying ^ Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2010	To non-Americans here..... ... how would you like to have a Green Card to settle in the U.S. the moment you graduate and receive a diploma? (lib arts need not apply ) Romney: I want our legal system to work better. I want it to be streamlined. I want it to be clearer. I don't think you have to -- shouldn't have to hire a lawyer to figure out how to get into this country legally. I also think that we should give visas to people -- green cards, rather, to people who graduate with skills that we need. People around the world with accredited degrees in science and math get a green card stapled to their diploma, come to the U.S. of A. We should make sure our legal system works.

2012-10-17, 00:05	Link #1525
Kaioshin Sama Banned Join Date: May 2004 Location: Neither Here nor There Age: 39	The whole "Binders full of women" thing is trending big time right now. Romney may have just entered full blown gaffe territory.

2012-10-17, 00:07	Link #1526
Dr. Casey Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Tennessee Age: 36	Well, if Obama came under heat for his completely inoffensive 'You didn't build that' speech, I guess it's fair for a bunch of jackasses to do the same to Romney for something that was in no way offensive in context...

2012-10-17, 01:04	Link #1531
Jaieni Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Physics Lab	If Romney created 25 million new jobs that were taxed at 35%, how much would (on average) would each job have to make a year to cover the current 1.2 trillion dollar deficit? 25,000,000 * 35% * ($/yr) = $1,200,000,000,000 ($/yr) = $137,142.86

2012-10-17, 02:21	Link #1535
Green² It's bacon! Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Up and to the Left Age: 43	When Romney said something about having "binders full of women", I thought he was describing his stash as sorted by blond, brunette, etc. ...and that the qualifications that Romney preferred probably amounted to AA, A, and possibly B. Best guess would be that how he hired had probably went by how he was feeling that time of the day.