AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Retired M-Z > Umineko

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2011-03-20, 17:02   Link #281
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by naikou View Post
I don't see why it "should" be? Who says it should be?
Perhaps you should think about that. The fact that you don't appear to know makes it very difficult for me to discuss anything with you.

As much as I'd love to go on a long tangent about moral philosophy (and perhaps it would be better to PM me about it if you wished to), I simply can't unless I can understand the philosophical framework upon which you base your decisions about moral acts. As far as I know, you don't have one. If I'm wrong, feel free to illuminate me, but we are drifting somewhat off-topic, and the thread probably doesn't need that.
Quote:
Do you not see the purpose behind my hypothetical, though? There are situations where revealing the truth can only lead to bad consequences. It is not an absolute that "The truth must be revealed!"
The existence of potentially bad consequences do not cease to make an action morally desirable. Being punished sucks, hurts your feelings, and may restrict your freedom or cause you physical harm. That doesn't mean it isn't right at times.

There are situations which may justify delaying revelation of the truth. However, there is never a situation which justifies supplanting truth with a lie, even temporarily. At times, immediate pursuit of the truth may have negative consequences which necessitate its delay. However, there is simply no such thing as a situation which demands indefinite and eternal concealment. Ever.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-20, 17:20   Link #282
Sherringford
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by naikou View Post
The point of Erika wasn't to say, "All mystery fans are evil!". It was to say, "People who are so concerned about finding the truth that they're blind to the problems they cause are evil."
That's your interpretation of what Erika was supposed to represent. To me, Ryuukishi's condescending tone and essay make me think otherwise.

Quote:
Sorry, I'm of the opinion that all people do things for reasons. Sure, there are bad people out there, but no one is 100% bad. Maybe mass murderers can't be forgiven, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to understand them. What Umineko does is take these extreme cases (mass murder, incest, rape), and show that even these people are human beings.

That, in my opinion, is far better, and far more beautiful than having Lion kill Kinzo for his crimes, or portraying Beatrice exclusively as a killer, rather than as a victim herself.
You don't need to pick an extreme. You don't need to kill someone over a mistake, but you also don't need to forgive them.

Ryuukishi's lesson is flawed. He didn't show us any reason we should want to forgive other than him preaching that forgiveness is good. Why, we don't even know what we should forgive the culprit of!

What's his response to that?

"WITHOUT LOVE IT CANNOT BE SEEN!"

...Yes real mature Ryu.

Without getting in the nature of how valid his lesson might be, he just did it badly. Really badly. His fanbase loves to be trolled, which gives him a pass in being inconsistent.
Sherringford is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-20, 17:26   Link #283
Klashikari
阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180
*Graphic Designer
*Moderator
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Belgium, Brussels
Age: 37
Are we really having a "overall game impressions" discussion, or a mere debate over the intention of the author and whatnot?

I'm sorry, but at this point, I have to bring up again on the guideline I was insisting from the very beginning:

Quote:
Also, considering the ending and even the nature of the story being debatable, please do not start any fruitless debate whatsoever: everyone is entitled to their opinions, so insisting on personal points and the likes towards your peers will not be condoned. Regardless how you have enjoyed the franchise, do not start imposing your view and expectations to others, and more importantly: do not derail the topic into endless jousting.
I do not expect people to wholeheartedly agree that the franchise was great or bad. However, it would be really better to just -drop- the discussion, when things turn into "it is YOUR interpretation", leading to just an escalating fruitless argument that leaves nothing but a circle discussion over a matter of personal tastes and whatnot.

It is getting extremely tiresome to keeping track with the threads, considering that most are being derailed by the same arguments over and over.
__________________
Klashikari is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-20, 17:28   Link #284
naikou
Slashy Slashy!
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: USA
Age: 34
Continued via PM, although I fear that will destroy the openness of the discussion. Oh well.
naikou is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-20, 17:33   Link #285
Chron
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Klashikari raises a very good point. There are other places for this discussion to take place, after all.

And I wouldn't mind continuing this discussion in a more appropriate location myself, either.
Chron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-20, 17:52   Link #286
Chron
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
There are other places set up for those discussions, so let's take them there and be done with it.
Chron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-21, 14:29   Link #287
UsagiTenpura
Artist
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Yesterday!
Hm I think this would be the right thread to say this, sorry if it isn't.

I've been realizing I find Umineko's ending not to be very surprising of a Visual Novel in the end. In fact I still somehow find it less depressing an ending then most VNs I read.
UsagiTenpura is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-21, 15:15   Link #288
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
It's true, depression and melodrama are common, but bear in mind that very happy endings are also pretty common. It's like a switch instead of a dial. You either get full-on depressing, bittersweet, or happy, and there are only a small handful of examples in between.

It might also appear that way simply because a lot of VNs have choices that lead to "bad" endings, which may not be bad but may be more of a downer than the "right" ones. Relatively few (but certainly not no) VNs have all endings roughly the same in tone.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-21, 15:45   Link #289
UsagiTenpura
Artist
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Yesterday!
Well I haven't really seen all out happy Visual Novels except dating sims or similar stories. Bad endings are fun cause they can be subjectively bad (School Days lol).

I'm thinking tho that Ryuukishi promised us a "bittersweet ending" while we got what is closer to a "depressing ending" (no matter how positive you can view Ange's final resolution it doesn't change that most people are dead and stays so). That might be hurting expectations a lot.

Still I see Beatrice more and more as Kinzo's Kaguya-Hime and somehow I'm not surprised to have the sort of story Umineko is in the end. Including the lack of moral resolution that you seem to dislike so much.
UsagiTenpura is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-21, 15:53   Link #290
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
I think the saddest part of the ending is the fact that while Battler is still alive he became another person and doesn't even want to return to his older self, which means he can't be Ange's brother.

From one side it's comforting for Ange to know that Battler is alive and... (not so well actually...) but in the end her "Oniichan" didn't come back and never will.

It's very sad, but yes there's been sadder stuff.
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-21, 15:55   Link #291
Judoh
Mystery buff
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
Thing is I (and some others) referenced the Bittersweet ending as if it was synonymous with a Downer ending. And that turned out to mostly be the correct interpretation.

That's not true of actual bittersweet endings of course. It's supposed to be Bitter AND sweet, but I guess Umineko's ending was mostly bitter.
Judoh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-21, 17:50   Link #292
Chron
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
I...don't see a lot of sweetness. Unless you find it sweet that Ange fills the void in her life by providing a Beato-cult home for orphaned children.

I actually find that to be progressively greater degrees of creepy and sad.
Chron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-21, 18:17   Link #293
LyricalAura
Dea ex Kakera
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
I don't understand how you got from "writing a successful children's book series based on Mariage Sorciere and making some orphans happy" to "supporting a Beato cult".

Let me put it this way. How would you interpret that scene if I replaced Ange with J. K. Rowling and the Umineko cast with Harry Potter characters?
__________________
"Something has fallen on us that falls very seldom on men; perhaps the worst thing that can fall on them. We have found the truth; and the truth makes no sense."

Last edited by LyricalAura; 2011-03-21 at 18:31.
LyricalAura is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-21, 18:19   Link #294
FirstTwilight
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
I don't find it particularly depressing, they are all reunited in the Golden Land in the end.
FirstTwilight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-21, 19:23   Link #295
Chron
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
I don't understand how you got from "writing a successful children's book series based on Mariage Sorciere and making some orphans happy" to "supporting a Beato cult".

Let me put it this way. How would you interpret that scene if I replaced Ange with J. K. Rowling and the Umineko cast with Harry Potter characters?
You know what's sad? I actually spent a half hour typing up a hilarious psychoanalysis parodying just how messed up Rowling would be psychologically if she constructed her own personal Hogwarts, and the multiple ways it could show something to be wrong with her.

But I took too long and the damn forum signed me out when I went to post it, and erased all my freacking effort. So you'll get nothing, and I'll get a great deal of frustration.
Chron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-21, 19:26   Link #296
LyricalAura
Dea ex Kakera
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chron View Post
You know what's sad? I actually spent a half hour typing up a hilarious psychoanalysis parodying just how messed up Rowling would be psychologically if she constructed her own personal Hogwarts, and the multiple ways it could show something to be wrong with her.

But I took too long and the damn forum signed me out when I went to post it, and erased all my freacking effort. So you'll get nothing, and I'll get a great deal of frustration.
Aww. You can't get it back from your browser history?
__________________
"Something has fallen on us that falls very seldom on men; perhaps the worst thing that can fall on them. We have found the truth; and the truth makes no sense."
LyricalAura is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-21, 19:31   Link #297
Chron
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Public computers don't allow me to access the browser history, since I lack administrative privileges, or something.
Chron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-21, 19:34   Link #298
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Whenever you write a long post it's a good idea to copy and paste all that you just wrote before pressing any button.
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-21, 19:41   Link #299
Chron
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
I finally found Trollkastel's Episode 8 uploads on youtube, so I was a biiiiit distracted, and then had a lapse in judgement.

Writing down the various songs to download later on my phone takes time, especially when listening through them all individually and deciding which are worth downloading (lixAxel and co.) and which are not (Ange's theme song).

I eagerly await the day I learn how to rip the music files from my copy of the game...
Chron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-03-21, 19:57   Link #300
musouka
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chron View Post
You know what's sad? I actually spent a half hour typing up a hilarious psychoanalysis parodying just how messed up Rowling would be psychologically if she constructed her own personal Hogwarts, and the multiple ways it could show something to be wrong with her.
They just rebuilt a hall. She didn't actually rebuild the mansion and have kids live there. It's no more creepy than designing a mess room that looks like the gathering room at Hogwarts for a bunch of underprivileged kids.

Having a painting is no indication of a cult to someone's personality. It's just a decoration.
__________________
雨の日も晴れの日も
いつの日も愛してた
それだけは 今もまだ
ずっと変りはしない
musouka is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 18:20.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
We use Silk.