AnimeSuki Forums

Kyuu · 2012-09-12, 03:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

So anyway... I don't think it's necessarily a "vs." issue.

Nowhere near the VHS days, where individual VHS tapes were priced... as much as the DVDs of today.

So, if anyone actually wanted both languages -- people would have to buy both. Likewise, there's that market influence, where if people buy more in one language than the other -- that would have prompted distributors to make more in one language vs the other.

Oh, the vicious days of what was...

I doubt kids today even know what a VHS is.

Triple_R · 2012-09-12, 06:33

To be fair, subs have one inherent advantage over dubs that I think contributes to why most online anime fans prefer subs to dubs (at least in my experience). And that advantage is that subs come out much quicker.

If you're an anime fan who watches shows as they come out, on a season-by-season basis, as many of us here do, then subs are the only option. And it's been my experience that the voices we first hear for a cast of characters are the voices we grow accustomed to, even if those voices are in a foreign language for us.

What I personally find is however I first experience an anime (be it sub or dub), is how I tend to prefer that anime. There's a few cases where I prefer the dubbed to the sub, and every such case I experienced the dub before I did the sub, so I became accustomed to the English voices for those characters before I heard their original Japanese voices.

That's certainly not to say that there's no difference between seiyu quality and English voice actor quality. Vexx raises many good points there - The way anime industries handles voice acting work is simply better than how dubbing companies handles it, imo. That does contribute to many people preferring subs to dubs, I think.

But I don't think we should underestimate the impact that "initial experience" can have. Once you grow used to a certain voice coming from a certain character, it can be hard to transition to a different voice representing that character.

Liddo-kun · 2012-09-12, 08:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vexx

Ah, I forgot to mention that. I also prefer watching any foreign film in the original language. Das Boot simply must be heard in German, for example. Crouching Tiger, Hidden Lion. There's some european films like Amelie (French), various Danish, Swedish films, etc.

On that topic, I enjoyed watching La Horde in french language with english sub. For me, it feels more natural when it's the language of the country of origin that I'm listening to. And is one strong reason why I prefer subs. Another thing is I'm a fast reader, and my eyes are nearsighted.

Slightly off topic, but still related to the discussion. I have a cd of Heartcatch Vocal Best album - listening to it using earphones. Then after straight japanese language, one of the songs is the english version of "Tomorrow Song" with a western singer. I was quite appalled that the western voice sounded like a very old person compared to the japanese singers in the cd. Just to clarify, I'm not racist and there's a few western singers in anime that I admire for their beautiful voice (one of them is the one who sang "Forest" in El Cazador).

wontaek · 2012-09-12, 08:55

Good dub always beats bad sub, in my opinion.

SeijiSensei · 2012-09-12, 09:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyuu

I doubt kids today even know what a VHS is.

They do if they have watched Video Girl Ai. It's a magical device that makes cute girls come out of your TV. I wonder why they ever went out of fashion!

TinyRedLeaf · 2012-09-12, 09:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vexx

Ah, I forgot to mention that. I also prefer watching any foreign film in the original language. Das Boot simply must be heard in German, for example. Crouching Tiger, Hidden Lion. There's some european films like Amelie (French), various Danish, Swedish films, etc.

With regard to anime, I beg differ and I highlight again the one caveat you yourself mentioned:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vexx

The content of the show sometimes makes a difference (as others noted, Cowboy Bebop plays well in English).

Classic Ghibli movie Porco Rosso offers an absolutely brilliant case study.

Italian
The tone simply "fits", though the match up with mouth flaps could certainly have been better.

French
Jean Reno came closest, in my opinion, to the Bogart persona that inspired Porco;
and Sophie Deschaumes was hands down the "best" Gina.

American
In the end, though, Susan Egan said it best:
"It takes place in Italy, it's originally in Japanese, now it's in English, but she sings in French..."

I could name so many other instances where the "need to watch a foreign film in its original language" doesn't necessarily apply in anime, like the "French" who speak fluent Japanese in Ikoku Meiro no Croisee... Well, yeah, of course, considering the intended audience but, still, is Japanese really the "best" language for this particular story?

So, I stand by what I said: 1) The setting matters; and 2) the only real limitations to a good dub are the level of respect for the material and the quality of voice talent.

If we open our minds and accept the possibility of different interpretations of a single character, we may well be pleasantly surprised.

Perky Arrietty

Demure Arrietty

==============

EDIT:
You just gotta love serendipity.

Midnight2352 · 2012-09-12, 19:08

I watch subbed all the time with Japanese audio. In the English Dubbed version, i feel as if there isn't enough emotion in their voices like the japanese version. Don't get me wrong, it just sounds weird to me, that's all.

Akito Kinomoto · 2012-09-12, 22:02

I have no problem watching a show in the Japanese audio/English subtitle format but I'd sooner take an English dub of any series when possible. Being able to focus on what's happening without keeping a periphery on the entire screen allows me to focus on the "artistic integrity" that supposedly gets lost when a show is dubbed in a foreign language. If I might go even further, I honestly think the fandom's aversion to English dubs is leftover sourness from what 4K!ds, Nelvana, early FUNimation, ect. did because it's rare to come across a bad English dub at this point in time ('sup Higurashi). Likewise, however, the Japanese voices aren't infallible either ('sup Kuroko Shirai).

Both formats are solid these days. Examining the better version for a series should go on a case-by-case basis instead of declaring superiority so casually.

cardcaptorkitty · 2012-09-13, 00:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Random32

--Japanese VA is more varied. The American industry is small, and thus the same VA's come up a lot.
--Japanese VA's tend to do a better job conveying emotion in their voice.
--Japanese girls sound cuter than American ones.
--Japanese is the original audio track.

I agree with these except your second point. I think that can be up for debate since it is subjective and despite certain English VAs popping up all the time, English VAs can still give solid performances.

Also, I imagine it helps to know the language - I remember reading that some Japanese voice actors felt that their English voiced counterparts did a much better job than they did. For what show this was, I have no idea, so I'm sorry I don't have a source to provide, but I remember reading it about a random series at one point. I think some of it has to deal with the language barrier - things tend to sound cooler in another language. Especially if you're fascinated by the sound of that language.

Granted, your third point is subjective as well - hell, let's face it, all of this discussion is purely opinion - but I do like the cute girl voices I hear sometimes.

Anyway, my point is that I am mainly a sub person by trade, since more series get subbed/fansubbed than dubbed, but that doesn't stop me from watching dubbed series. By default and by habit I'll go to watch it subbed, but if I've heard the dub before or if I've heard good things about the dub, I will also look up some second opinions and give the dub a try. Sometimes, if I finish a series, I'll give the dub a taste to see how it is - or rewatch the entire thing dubbed to get a better opinion on it. There are shows I have seen dubbed and never the Japanese version before, as well. It doesn't bug me because I love reading subtitles and recognizing voice actors - from both versions!

However, I always take it as a case-by-case basis. Like Kyuu pointed out, it doesn't matter too much anymore since DVDs and blurays now provide both audio tracks (well, usually, but that's another subject entirely).

aohige · 2012-09-13, 03:40

Neither.

When watching something in neither English or Japanese, I prefer subs.
Original acting > dub. Regardless of claims of "nuh uh dubs better cuz I'm more familiar with my own language, don't even remind me that I have no place judging a foreign language actor's talent despite the fact I have no idea about the intonation and what realistic speech sounds like in the said language!"

Really though. If you don't know the original foreign language, you have very little to go by on what costitutes a good acting.

Dawnstorm · 2012-09-13, 04:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by aohige

Really though. If you don't know the original foreign language, you have very little to go by on what costitutes a good acting.

That's certainly true to an extent, but there's more to it. I've been watching anime since the early seventies. Back then I was a child of maybe five, and the anime I'm talking about is what they showed on TV in the children's programs: mostly World Masterpiece Theatre shows, but also shows like Kimba the White Lion or Sindbad. (Mostly shows that are not set in Japan. The first one I remember they showed that was set in Japan was Attakku No. 1, which was in the early nineties (the anime was quite old by then

). A couple of sports anime followed, then Sailor Moon...

The first anime I saw in the original Japanese with subtitles was the TV series of Silent Moebius. You recognise the style, and certain interaction patterns that have always seemed a bit strange in German suddenly made sense. An example would be the character being emotionally touched by something another character said or did and saying his name. No German voice actor ever got the mood right, so that just seemed strange. When I saw that for the first time in Japanese it made intuitive sense.

It's not something you can explain. But lots of little things that made characters seem naive or maybe a bit stupid (although you knew they weren't) suddenly made sense. There is something in the original emotion that gets lost to the extent that seeing it in the original can give you an aha-moment.

I'm not sure, though if I'm just imagining it. But I've experienced that with quite a few patterns: the say-the-name thing I talked about above, repeating something someone else said...

The better subs actually take that in account; they do a better localisation. Oddly enough, while the experience is more immersive, the feeling of "loss" is greater when I watch the subbed version.

I have very little experience with English dubs; I think the only ones I've seen are Chobits and Roujin Z.

Come to think of it: Roujin Z might be only anime I've ever watched that was both a dub and a sub: first dubbed into English and then provided with German subs.

Ithekro · 2012-09-13, 05:19

There are sometimes instances were the voice for a character in a show is more awesome in some foreign dub verses the original. Or the dub "corrected" plot errors (rare).

Sometimes they made a character way too cool for what they are suppose to be.

Most times the character is made sillier due to the choice of a silly voice. This can happen in any direction.

From my understanding the Japanese dub of "Beat Wars" made some of the characters either sillier than they were in English, or made it so the voice was such you really couldn't take the character seriously.

aohige · 2012-09-13, 05:38

@Dawnstorm
I don't disagree that there's inheritent acting involved that's universally acknowledgable in quality.
However, I feel most people who diss original acting in favor for their "localized" actors do so not because the dub actors are better, but simply because they cannot acknowledge the nuances of the original voice actor, becuase well, they don't know the language.

I always prefer original acting, even if it's a language I don't understand.
That way I'll have the original acting, and chance to pick up nuances of that language.
For English and Japanese, obviously, I watch it raw if I was given the choice.

Although that new Batman movie made me want a subtitle.

Batman: "HUURGGHHURGHUUURRG AHM VATMAAN"
Bain: "MURRHPHRMURH MRRPHRIR MURRR!!"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ithekro

From my understanding the Japanese dub of "Beat Wars" made some of the characters either sillier than they were in English, or made it so the voice was such you really couldn't take the character seriously.

LOL Beast Wars.

That was a joke-dub, and a lot of jokes were actually ad-lib.
As in, the actors made stuff up on the spot.

My take on that series is, the show was too crappy to possibly have an audience, so they upped the silly.
Didn't a few American companies do the same with old Kung-fu flicks?

Liddo-kun · 2012-09-13, 06:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by cardcaptorkitty

I agree with these except your second point. I think that can be up for debate since it is subjective and despite certain English VAs popping up all the time, English VAs can still give solid performances.

Just saying my own opinion on that.

Indeed, there are some good english voice actors and actresses out there. I personally like those who did voice acting for Robotech, Astroboy, and Tenchi Muyo. But those times are in the era when I have no computer and only watched anime on TV, and what bootlegged cd's a local hobby shop could provide. These days for some reason I can't stand to watch any english dubbed anime anymore, it's a weird feeling.

Vladrave · 2012-09-13, 07:37

While i mostly watch anime in subs, there are some anime which is better suited for english in my opinion such as Cowboy bebop, Hellsing, Trigun, Black Lagoon, Full metal alchemist, Baccano which are all good dubs especially cowboy bebop. One of the reasons why i prefer these animes is because they are all set into a non-japanese settings. When i think of a show which is take place in a american setting, cowboy-like setting or European setting, the language i expect to be everyone speaking is anything but japanese.

So yeah, it's 50-50 for me. I sometimes preferred dubs over subs because i don't wanna keep up with the subtitles all the time and i realized: "Oh there's a good scene. I missed it so i gotta rewind it"

aohige · 2012-09-13, 07:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vladrave

While i mostly watch anime in subs, there are some anime which is better suited for english in my opinion such as Cowboy bebop, Hellsing, Trigun, Black Lagoon, Full metal alchemist, Baccano which are all good dubs especially cowboy bebop. One of the reasons why i prefer these animes is because they are all set into a non-japanese settings. When i think of a show which is take place in a american setting, cowboy-like setting or European setting, the language i expect to be everyone speaking is anything but japanese.

There's no way Cowboy Bebop English actors are better. Not a chance in the world.
You just feel like that becuase English is your language.

CB has one of the most amazing cast of veteran seiyuus, it's not even a competition. None.

If setting is all that matters, then:

Aladdin: Crap. Not Arabic.
Little Mermaid: Crap. Not Danish.
Beauty and the Beast: Crap. Not French.
Pinoccio: Crap. Not Italian.
Mulan: Crap. Not Mandarin.
Lion King: Crap. No Lionese.

Bonus:
Afro Samurai: Crap. Not Japanese.
Samurai Jack: Crap. Not Japanese.
TMNT: Crap. Not.... not... wait, TMNT can't be crap. It's impossible.

demino_hellsin · 2012-09-13, 07:52

I pick... subs!

For now.

Anime in america is just really starting to bud now as far as I'm concerned(Naruto running for a long time does not count). The quality and dedication is just starting to rise. Some voice actors and actresses just aren't able to grasp the character in the same way their japanese originals could. Some badasses sound like whining brats in the few unmemorable dubs that I watched. The character I find moe due to dat voice! suddenly becomes... squeaky. It's really a hard pick and I honestly still find subs superior thus far. Most dubs for me have been quality only in videogames.

Vladrave · 2012-09-13, 08:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by aohige

There's no way Cowboy Bebop English actors are better. Not a chance in the world.
You just feel like that becuase English is your language.

CB has one of the most amazing cast of veteran seiyuus, it's not even a competition. None.

If setting is all that matters, then:

Aladdin: Crap. Not Arabic.
Little Mermaid: Crap. Not Danish.
Beauty and the Beast: Crap. Not French.
Pinoccio: Crap. Not Italian.
Mulan: Crap. Not Mandarin.
Lion King: Crap. No Lionese.

Bonus:
Afro Samurai: Crap. Not Japanese.
Samurai Jack: Crap. Not Japanese.
TMNT: Crap. Not.... not... wait, TMNT can't be crap. It's impossible.

Yeah, but that is what I prefer and i just said that its just "one" of the reasons why i prefer it on english dubs. If you think cowboy bebop is better on japanese 100% then fine. You don't expect me to like the same thing you like. Oh, and english is not my native language by the way. I'm asian.
Now i do think that many anime is better in subs. But there is also will be always be a good dub and a bad dub. I did not ever once said that Cowboy bebop in dub is better than the subs. I just prefer the dub because of my personal preferences.

aohige · 2012-09-13, 08:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vladrave

Yeah, but that is what I prefer and i just said that its just "one" of the reasons why i prefer it on english dubs. If you think cowboy bebop is better on japanese 100% then fine. You don't expect me to like the same thing you like. Oh, and english is not my native language by the way. I'm asian.
Now i do think that many anime is better in subs. But there is also will be always be a good dub and a bad dub. I did not ever once said that Cowboy bebop in dub is better than the subs. I just prefer the dub because of my personal preferences.

Opinions?
No way Jose, you can't have one of those.

Because... because.

james0246 · 2012-09-13, 09:18

As TinyRedLeaf alluded to earlier, I find it best to treat dubs the same as I treat adaptations: they are separate and unique endeavors that can stand beside and sometimes enhance the source material. That being said, as with any adaptation, it is always best to experience both the original and adapted versions if possible.

2012-09-12, 06:33	Link #22
Triple_R Senior Member Author Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Newfoundland, Canada Age: 42	To be fair, subs have one inherent advantage over dubs that I think contributes to why most online anime fans prefer subs to dubs (at least in my experience). And that advantage is that subs come out much quicker. If you're an anime fan who watches shows as they come out, on a season-by-season basis, as many of us here do, then subs are the only option. And it's been my experience that the voices we first hear for a cast of characters are the voices we grow accustomed to, even if those voices are in a foreign language for us. What I personally find is however I first experience an anime (be it sub or dub), is how I tend to prefer that anime. There's a few cases where I prefer the dubbed to the sub, and every such case I experienced the dub before I did the sub, so I became accustomed to the English voices for those characters before I heard their original Japanese voices. That's certainly not to say that there's no difference between seiyu quality and English voice actor quality. Vexx raises many good points there - The way anime industries handles voice acting work is simply better than how dubbing companies handles it, imo. That does contribute to many people preferring subs to dubs, I think. But I don't think we should underestimate the impact that "initial experience" can have. Once you grow used to a certain voice coming from a certain character, it can be hard to transition to a different voice representing that character. __________________

2012-09-12, 08:55	Link #24
wontaek Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Planet Earth Age: 54	Good dub always beats bad sub, in my opinion. __________________

2012-09-12, 19:08	Link #27
Midnight2352 Midnight Author Join Date: May 2012	I watch subbed all the time with Japanese audio. In the English Dubbed version, i feel as if there isn't enough emotion in their voices like the japanese version. Don't get me wrong, it just sounds weird to me, that's all. __________________

2012-09-13, 03:40	Link #30
aohige ( ಠ_ಠ) Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Somewhere, between the sacred silence and sleep	Neither. When watching something in neither English or Japanese, I prefer subs. Original acting > dub. Regardless of claims of "nuh uh dubs better cuz I'm more familiar with my own language, don't even remind me that I have no place judging a foreign language actor's talent despite the fact I have no idea about the intonation and what realistic speech sounds like in the said language!" Really though. If you don't know the original foreign language, you have very little to go by on what costitutes a good acting. __________________

2012-09-13, 05:19	Link #32
Ithekro Gamilas Falls Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Republic of California Age: 46	There are sometimes instances were the voice for a character in a show is more awesome in some foreign dub verses the original. Or the dub "corrected" plot errors (rare). Sometimes they made a character way too cool for what they are suppose to be. Most times the character is made sillier due to the choice of a silly voice. This can happen in any direction. From my understanding the Japanese dub of "Beat Wars" made some of the characters either sillier than they were in English, or made it so the voice was such you really couldn't take the character seriously. __________________

2012-09-13, 07:37	Link #35
Vladrave The Dark Slayer Join Date: Aug 2012	While i mostly watch anime in subs, there are some anime which is better suited for english in my opinion such as Cowboy bebop, Hellsing, Trigun, Black Lagoon, Full metal alchemist, Baccano which are all good dubs especially cowboy bebop. One of the reasons why i prefer these animes is because they are all set into a non-japanese settings. When i think of a show which is take place in a american setting, cowboy-like setting or European setting, the language i expect to be everyone speaking is anything but japanese. So yeah, it's 50-50 for me. I sometimes preferred dubs over subs because i don't wanna keep up with the subtitles all the time and i realized: "Oh there's a good scene. I missed it so i gotta rewind it"

2012-09-13, 07:52	Link #37
demino_hellsin That one guy Join Date: Nov 2011	I pick... subs! For now. Anime in america is just really starting to bud now as far as I'm concerned(Naruto running for a long time does not count). The quality and dedication is just starting to rise. Some voice actors and actresses just aren't able to grasp the character in the same way their japanese originals could. Some badasses sound like whining brats in the few unmemorable dubs that I watched. The character I find moe due to dat voice! suddenly becomes... squeaky. It's really a hard pick and I honestly still find subs superior thus far. Most dubs for me have been quality only in videogames.

2012-09-13, 09:18	Link #40
james0246 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: East Cupcake	As TinyRedLeaf alluded to earlier, I find it best to treat dubs the same as I treat adaptations: they are separate and unique endeavors that can stand beside and sometimes enhance the source material. That being said, as with any adaptation, it is always best to experience both the original and adapted versions if possible.