Hyouka - Episode 13 Discussion / Poll

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Flower

Very good point.

To be clear I was not necessarily saying that one was guilty and the other innocent, per se, though. Moreso pointing out the contrast between an idea being looked at as true or false and an idea being used as a tool for other personal purposes.

I get your point here yeah. A valid argument can be used for a malicious purpose. That doesn't make the argument any less valid... or the malice any less malicious.

Originally Posted by Shergal

I don't know who's the better person there, but Mayaka's argument is retarded. She didn't even respond to the initial point, she went on a tangent based on 'technical abilities' that doesn't clear up anything.

And her way of proving to the other gal that masterpieces are objective is bringing a manga she liked? What if nobody in the club likes it? What if another manga she considers a masterpiece is disliked by a lot of people, or vice-versa? This is bound to happen at some time.

Well, I do agree with Mayaka on how not all manga are completely equal, and that there is a skill difference between different writers. But I do think she takes her reasoning a bit far, perhaps.

Really, this debate between Mayaka and the Priestess girl reminds me of some of the debates that Kuroneko and Kirino had in Ore no Imouto.

It's two different approaches to the same fandom - Heck, you see it here on Anime Suki all the time.

[Solafighter]

I'm curious, why Oreki knows, that the pistol is a glock 17.. Someone also wet their ground in the clubroom and nobody is giving a f***.

Want to see more Ibara!

[n120cky]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

It's two different approaches to the same fandom - Heck, you see it here on Anime Suki all the time.

Yeah, especially when they compare between the manga/novel to the anime , but I think they both not wrong, it's just the senpai being subjective and Ibara being Idealist. For example we would enjoy stuff that we like more than masterpiece work that don't match with our favorite genre.

Originally Posted by Solafighter

I'm curious, why Oreki knows, that the pistol is a glock 17..

May be he knew it from his sister . . .

[Cyz]

Oooh! Oreki is busted! I love Eru's reaction it's really cute. Usually, girls will think that he's a pervert or something but not her. Poor Oreki was lost for thought

[OceanBlue]

I don't think the concepts of masterpieces and the inherent value of a work are so completely black and white that we can split ourselves into two sides personified by high school anime girls . I don't really know a lot about the debates or the discourse that concerns that topic, though, so whatever.

It was a funny and cute episode (not completely at the same time ), but I couldn't help but feel bad for Mayaka. I guess now that she's been given some interests and apprehensions, I feel that she's more relateable and I like her more as a character now.

[Bahamut]

…“masterpiece” or rather the term “perfection” is already a problem…to me that is…if defined by an individual its already subjective…if by its own (if possible as in without the influence of a human) being objective its either an idea waiting to be tainted by our opinions or beyond our comprehension to begin with…
…but then again…what i just said might as well be moot…

...on another note...this episode definitely displays houtaro's keen insight...or at least anything eru related...from being able to hear her voice from another classroom to sensing her presence during the hot spring ep...to now just a glimpse of a photo of a skirt...
...of course he did see those sensors back in ep 3...

[Somnus]

This arc is turning out to be pure joy. So many things going on and yet you don't feel lost in any of it, which only tells of how well they're executing everything.

Also, that bit at the end with Oreki and Eru had me grinning from ear to ear.

[supermegasonic]

Originally Posted by Solafighter

I'm curious, why Oreki knows, that the pistol is a glock 17.. Someone also wet their ground in the clubroom and nobody is giving a f***.

Want to see more Ibara!

he never really cared about minor stuff like that to begin with

eh, it will dry up sooner or later....

[Forsaken_Infinity]

Eh... essentially the question boils down to if or not there is such a thing as value or merit. It's a little bit of yes, a little bit of no and yes but no and no but yes and yeah but not really and no but if you think about it, yeah and all that etc. Essentially, there is no correct answer but that doesn't mean that we don't, can't or shouldn't pick an answer as correct. It's natural to choose one and&or the other depending on insinuating circumstances etc. The only thing that really matters is to realize that all these constructions we come up with are guides, tools etc. to help us and not to rule, limit us. There are multiple paths to take to reach a destination, multiple tools to solve a problem, multiple weapons and fighting styles to get the job done etc. etc. What's important is to not limit yourself to just one path, just one tool, just one style, just one train of thought etc. etc. You choose one (or sometimes, many) depending on what you need. Also, goal doesn't have to be one state or one destination. It can also be the journey, for instance. In that case, you would choose paths and mix and match and all that good stuff.

Masterpieces are born masterpieces but one man's trash is another man's treasure. Quite literally so in this particular episode of Hyouka. Reviews aren't useless, far from it, but they shouldn't be treated as the end-all word of god either. Any work, depending on it's reader, can be interesting or not but dumping all the responsibilities for the value of a work on it's audience is cheating and being hypocritical and finding an excuse to be complacent. What's really important is that the author be diligent, sincere and honest in their work. It is true that the audience will perceive it as they see fit but it wouldn't change the true efforts and passion the author put into the work.

Reviews are tools that help the author see how others see their work and are vital in the process of reconciliation of the author's creativity with the pragmatism required to suit it to the audience. They are also important to show outliers to the author so that they can improve their own boundaries. Reviews also help the audience tailor their tastes towards whatever they already like. They help the audience expand their own horizons as well. And most importantly, in writing a review, a reviewer engages in a proactive and alive communication that encompasses and engages themselves, the audience and the author. Reviews are thus platforms to shine different shades of light on a particular work.

At the same time though, reviews can also limit the creativity of the author. They can misguide the audience. They can highlight the reviewer's own bias and make that bias even stronger. They can and more often than not, do, sow seeds of discord in the very community that they were products of etc. But that's okay. Yes there are downsides to reviews, but they aren't useless.

It is important to always take any review with a grain of salt. It is important to always proactively try to broaden one's horizons and to improve at whatever it is that one wants to excel at. The moment you stop trying to get better, you get worse. It is important to realize that your opinion of the work is subjective and that though you may not like it, others may very well be enamored by it. But it is also important to note that there is nothing wrong with sharing your perspective as a review. In fact, it's better if you share it because that can help refine everything included. Communication is vital. But it's not okay to be condescending, to try and censor an opinion or even to be so passionate about something that you keep getting distracted from your immediate goal. etc. etc. etc.

What's really interesting about Hyouka isn't that it gives us contrasts, it's rather that it gives us contrasts without siding with any and experimenting with all these different sides and shades.

It also apparently gets me to write tl;drs when I should be doing other things instead. ;_;

[Kinematics]

'Masterpiece' is a work that is exceptional by any critical measure (artwork, dialogue, pacing, plot, characters, etc.; artwork is a lesser requirement, since it will inevitably seem dated over time). It's mostly a reflection of the skill of the creator(s).
'Classic' is a work that has stood the test of time (ie: people still like and relate to it even after decades of cultural shift).
'Popular' is a work that lots of people like, regardless of critics.

A Classic must necessarily be Popular (though a Cult Classic only need be popular among a particular niche), but being Popular doesn't imply it will become a Classic.

So, for example, Sailor Moon would be considered a Classic, but I doubt anyone would really describe it as a Masterpiece. Evangelion, on the other hand, could be argued to be a Masterpiece (and obviously also a Classic). K-On! would fall under Popular, and will probably eventually be a Classic. (Note: just using anime since it's easier to come up with examples.)

Note that none of these terms mean you have to like the work yourself. Popular doesn't mean 100% of the population likes it, and Masterpiece doesn't really even require that -anyone- like it.

Further, all of those are views of works from a broad general perspective, not an individual one. I'm not sure what term to use here, where the reader connects to a work in a special way -- a sort of epiphany. That makes the work very special for that person, but has no bearing on whether the work itself is popular or a masterpiece or whatever.


In the end, they are describing several different things, and trying to attribute the same word to each. The argument is all about confusing the topic under discussion. Semantics.

[Kiltias]

The whole Tarot aspect is making me highly curious.

The Wheel of Fortune tarot card demonstrates the cyclical nature of life and existence, symbolizing fate, fortune, surprise, and the coincidences which alter our current circumstances at random.

Upright - lucky, fortunate, cycles, good timing, positive change

Reversed - unlucky, unfortunate, gambling, unsuccessful, bad timing

This very card is missing.
Incidentally, Chitanda,Ibara and Satoshi are now confronted with events involving the reverse.
However Houtarou of all people is having luck.

Incidentally:
Irisu - Empress
Mayaka - Justice
Satoshi - Magician
Chitanda - Fool
Houtarou - Strength

I note that there is another person that we can personalize with a card:

When the World card lands in the upright position it indicates a successful conclusion to an important plan or project.t may also reveal a positive connection to international matters such as overseas travel or news from abroad.

When the World card is in the upside-down/reversed position it indicates a negative connection to foreign countries. There may also be apprehension regarding change or a fear of venturing out into the unknown.

The World also symbolizes that since an end has finally been reached, a new beginning is to arise, for although a particular cycle may have ended, this simply means that another is bound to begin. Other interpretations of the World tarot card may also suggest that the travel to a foreign destination may occur, a voyage which will be anything but short in length and distance, for the World always represents a drastic change in circumstances.

Somewhat Tomoe.
Important plan or project:
Tomoe is definitely up to something that much is for certain.
In the same country as Sekitani.
Told Houtarou to join the the Classics club where off all People Sekitanis Niece is also.
Knows Aikido - The building that burn down in the past was the Martial Arts Club.
gave Houtarou the final push to solve Sekitanis past only to immediately stop the conversation.He even noted:
"It's almost as if she....."
And wasn't it her who told him to work at the pool?
Meanwhile who did Irisu chat with "On the other side of the world" being the true person behind Hongou and the whole Movie thing was aimed at who again?
Meanwhile:
What is the point of giving him a broken pen without ink?
Only for Houtarou to get it swapped for the winning number and getting a Glock.
It's as if she knows whats gonna happen.

connection to international matters such as overseas travel or news from abroad

Self-explainantory.
Travels around the world.

negative connection to foreign countries.

Sekitani missing in the same country she was in.India.

the World always represents a drastic change in circumstances.

Drastic change.
What do we see about Houtarou ever since he joined the club?
He begins to change mostly thanks to Chitanda.

So with that said:
This episode has proven a that the Anime has a deep connection to Tarot and the card meanings which can hardly be a coincidence.
I'm not sure how but Tomoe is somehow able to puppeteer everything as her card indicates so.

Houtarou is blessed with Luck while the other 3 are in situations involving bad luck.
No way this is a coincidence and this episode has proven it.

[Pen3]

I remember reading somewhere that Tomoe is a martial arts expert.

[GreyZone]

I don't understand Eru's reaction... so these pictures embarras her... but she would have no problem with mixed bathing?

[Bahamut]

...eru is probably slow to these things...or fails to acknowledge oreki as a guy from time to time but instead as a close companion...
...pool ep showed something similar where she wasnt embarraassed until oreki indirectly mentioned about her swimsuit...

[Pen3]

maybe Eru has autism or some kind of attention disorder.

[GMT]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

I don't understand Eru's reaction... so these pictures embarras her... but she would have no problem with mixed bathing?

One is a situation where Eru was entering into it willingly. The other situation has Houtarou invading Eru's privacy, without her knowledge or permission. If it were, say, pictures of Mayaka that Houtarou were ogling, it'd be a sure bet Mayaka would've beat his ass good for it when she found out.

tl;dr - Houtarou's lucky that Eru's nice to a fault.

[Anh_Minh]

I don't think that's it. She's embarrassed, not really angry.

I guess she's not shy about her body, but those were some rather ridiculous costumes she put on. They were cute, but maybe she thinks it's a bit childish?

[Triple_R]

Yeah, I'm with Anh_Minh on this.

Also, while I found that Oreki/Eru scene very cute, I think it's getting blown a bit out of proportion. It's no worse than looking at pics of your girlfriend in her Halloween costume. It's not like Oreki was looking at pics of Eru in lingerie.

[GreyZone]

Well she put it on the desk at which Houtarou was sitting just like that without comment, instead of putting it somewhere else in the room... so it is (partially) her own fault it happened...

[FlareKnight]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

Well she put it on the desk at which Houtarou was sitting just like that without comment, instead of putting it somewhere else in the room... so it is (partially) her own fault it happened...

It's not like she put the envelope alone on the desk though. It was in the middle of stuff, so he had to dig in there to actually get his hands on the photos. Might be a bit much to expect Chitanda to consider that Houtarou would start going through her stuff. Not that she couldn't have put everything somewhere else, but all things considered I think her greatest responsibility to this situation was getting caught up in things in the first place.