2011-02-26, 15:25 | Link #581 | ||
Prelude of Light
Join Date: Jan 2010
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It isn't much of a staring contest if one of them collapses immediately. Quote:
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2011-02-27, 15:14 | Link #582 | ||
zzz
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My point is that haki can be a weapon, just like a DF or actual swords. Quote:
Anyway, you may be right; Oda hasn't shown enough for us to know yet. It wouldn't be prudent to discount anything just yet..
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2011-02-27, 22:04 | Link #583 | |
NEW WORLD BABY~!
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I dunno, I always figured it was his health problems stopping him from using Haki at the same time as everything else. Though, with his DF powers it's kinda hard to not have to use it at all. He didn't exactly need them powers to take on the likes of Akainu~
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2011-05-06, 02:03 | Link #585 |
da big boss
Join Date: Jul 2006
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Crocodile and Mr. 1
(I'm well aware someone could've done this already, but I didn't feel like reading through all the posts so that's that.
First off, is it just me or did Crocodile and Mr. 1 have a "monster point chopper" like boost in strength during the war. Crocodile went toe to toe with Doflamingo, Hawkeyes, Jozu, and Akainu. We don't know the outcome of any of those battles but it certainly didn't seem like Crocodile was at a clear disadvantage in any of these fights. Considering he lost to luffy before he was even a 100 million berry man what could possibly account for such a large jump in strength in him as well as in Daz Bones. Not that I'm complaining, I like the new croc and Daz. but it seems a really heavy jump to make. Here's my opinion as to why Crocodile is stronger now: 1. Arrogance, didn't take Luffy seriously enough when they fought. 2. Lack of will power, Crocodile's will seems a lot stronger now than before. 3. No one knows his weakness. 4. May have gotten stronger in prison Number 3 is the big one, if you remember back to the fight with Enel Oda stated that Enel's bounty would be in excess of 500mil had he'd been a real pirate. Luffy's bounty at the time was only a 100 million clearly not enough to win. But since his rubber neutralized his ability to produce electricity that gave Luffy a big enough edge to win. Since Luffy's bounty was at 100mill when he fought enel would that mean that learning the elemental weakness cuts your power down to a fifth? If that's the case then it may not be unreasonable to believe he could lose to Luffy and then fight on equal terms with the big shots. But even with that in mind I'd say Crocodile was far more than a fifth of his strength when he fought Luffy, and that still doesn't explain why Daz Bones has gotten so strong. Thoughts?
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2011-05-06, 04:15 | Link #587 |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Bulgaria, Burgas
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Maaan, crocodile has a logia df - that's counts dude.
Doflamingo, Hawkeyes, Jozu, and Akainu Against Jozu - Dofla had already attached his strings on Jozu. Against Dofla - it wasn't a fight, more like a brawl - like a slap or two. Don't remember Croc against Hawkeye And Croc against Akainu was like - Croc and the strongest pirates in WB's pirates - the commanders - sooo it doesn't count for much But yeah - Croc is one badass character and I like him a lot. Peace |
2011-05-06, 05:32 | Link #588 | |
Ultra noob
Join Date: Dec 2004
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To me, luffy still lost. The match was technically a double KO with Luffy getting a duex ex-machina finishing blow on will power. But the double KO was only in terms of a ritualised duel. In a real fight as that was, the one-on-one was won by crocodile as luffy was going to die and crocodile was only unconscious. The only reason Luffy survived was due to Robin. For Daz Bone, I don't recall he did much during the war. He didn't go against major enemies like the VAs, so doing well against grunts seems to be fair. Given his body and abilities, he is especially suited to survive the war without injury unless he meets a haki user. even a seastone would only make him strengthless but he would still be metal... In fact, he would probably have no problems fighting with CP9 at all which both luffy and zoro had problems against. Or at least draw with them. Off topic, but luffy's win against Eneru was even worse considering that even without his lightning, Enel should have been able to dodge all attacks and move much faster than him. |
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2011-05-06, 09:03 | Link #589 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
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Daz is good enough to last some time in marineford, but we saw Mihawk own him, as it should've been .. although I don't think Daz is ALWAYS metal, like Luffy is ALWAYS rubber .. Daz activates it like Jozu I think Enel never once demonsrated speed that you'd expect from lightning (which differs a lot, under some conditions return stroke of a lightning bolt can travel short distances at a significant fraction (1/3 or 1/2+) of the speed of light .. total avg speed is still thousands or at least hundreds of km/miles per second) in his fight with Luffy .. he 'teleported' (probably fast movement) once or twice though outside the fight afaik .. tha's why Kizaru > Enel
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2011-05-06, 09:50 | Link #590 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
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As others already said, Crocodile was already that strong to begin with. For some reason many people belittle him because he lost to Luffy, but I think they fail to remember just how much our rookie friend had to struggle in order to subdue him (he nearly died three times, after all). Same deal with Daz: Zoro was near death himself when he finally managed to hear the "breath" of his ability, so it's not like he was a pushover in the first place, either. That's why I wasn't surprised at all to see the both of them fighting against world elites at Marineford (however, I was pretty surprised to see Crocoboy go to the trouble of saving Luffy's life (more than once at that), but that's a story for a different time)......
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2011-05-06, 13:09 | Link #591 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2007
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@cheese4u - In addition to what everyone else said (I told you so ), you're directly correlating bounty to strength and it doesn't work that way. Bounty isn't an accurate reflection of one's fighting power; it's primarily reflects on the person's threat level.
Blackbeard became a warlord with a bounty of 0, but obviously that number doesn't reflect his monstrous strength. Chopper is most certainly not just a pet worth a measly 50; he defeated a CP9 agent by himself which is a remarkable feat. Zoro and Sanji are comparable to Luffy in fighting strength (they are known as the monster trio for a reason), but clearly their respective bounties of 120 million and 77 million as opposed to 300 million (now 400 million) don't accurately reflect that. So, as you can see, the bounty=strength system doesn't work. As for Croc, Luffy only won due to circumstantial plot (much like he did against Enel and Moria, as well). And that makes perfect sense, seeing as how Croc is a shichibukai class pirate, whereas Luffy was just a rookie. Oda made it a point to emphasize the difference in caliber between the two levels. Even at Impel Down, Croc was treated as the same caliber as Ace and Jimbei; they all underwent the boiling baptism without even flinching and were all stationed on Level 6. Pre-time skip, Luffy wasn't on their level (as in strength, if you will). Finally, the war at Marineford showed us what Croc is like when he doesn't underestimate anyone (and for good reason seeing as how the battlefield was full of elites); he can hang with the big boys. Croc was one of 7 elite pirates chosen to work for the WG. They deemed him worthy of shichibukai status, and thus that is a testament to him always being very strong. The WG wouldn't recruit someone weaker than a rookie, especially since the Shichibukai were formed to counterbalance the Yonkou.
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2011-05-06, 15:48 | Link #592 |
da big boss
Join Date: Jul 2006
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Thanks Blackbeard D. Kuma for the informative and slightly condescending lesson, but I'm well aware bounty isn't reflexive of strength. That doesn't change the fact that something doesn't make sense about all of this. Bounty is not entirely indicative of the strength of a character but it doesn't mean it should be dismissed. Clearly, most bounties give you a good indicator of what that person's strength is. But even going by other measures such as relative strength it doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
Honestly, what percentage chance would you give pre time skip Luffy of defeating Jozu, Doflamingo, Mihawk, Akainu, or Whitebeard? I'd say pretty close to zero for all of them. Having said that would it shock you if Luffy got owned in one hit by any of these guys? I don't think it would. And yet Crocodile came out of all of those fights unscathed. Luffy went toe to toe with some of those guys as well, but thats only because he had help (namely from Crocodile!). You can say what you want about how Crocodile wasn't taking Luffy seriously in their previous encounter, but in that final fight he clearly was. I'd think if Crocodile was reasonably this strong to begin with, once the gloves came off in Alabasta don't you think he'd be able to one hit KO Luffy as well? Especially when you consider how much weaker Luffy was then as opposed to now, it doesn't make sense. I mean he was fresh out of East Blue for crying out loud! Don't get me wrong, as I said before I'm a big fan of the new Crocodile and Daz Bones, so I'm not complaining about their sudden surge in strength. But I put a huge emphasis on the word "new." Meaning this clearly isn't a power that they had before. Both Crocodile and Daz are showing a strength that is at least several times greater than what they showed in Alabasta. Of course I myself have felt for a long time Crocodile was stronger than Luffy, but by this much? He lost to Luffy with no 2nd or third gears a few arcs back and now he looks like a Yonkou. There is clearly a large unexplained gap in Crocodile's power that needs to be explained. I'm sorry but no matter what the circumstances there's no logical reason for one to be able to go from being pwned by a gearless Luffy to fighting on equal terms with Mihawk. Of course if Oda were to explain all of this logically I'd happily accept it. Like for instance, maybe Crocodile and Daz know Haki but just weren't using it in their fights. That would explain a lot. But so far no explanation has been given and its left me a bit dumbfounded.
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Last edited by cheese4u; 2011-05-06 at 16:48. |
2011-05-06, 16:49 | Link #593 | ||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2007
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Croc tanked a brilliant punk from Jozu, but he most certainly would have lost were it not for Doflamingo's interference. Jozu outclasses Croc in all physical aspects. Doflamingo was more of annoyance than anything. He wanted to make Croc his underling, to which the latter replied no. Croc retaliated with a sandstorm which appeared to have no effect on Doflamingo. Later on, we see Doflamingo's decapitation is ineffective on Croc (since he's a logia user). Subsequent to that, the two warlords clash. This skirmish, too, was inconclusive. Mihawk was only intercepted by Croc's hook. We don't see anything else beyond that altercation. Hardly evidence to say Croc's on par with the master swordsman. Akainu was sliced by Croc's desert sparda, but the attack had no effect. Croc then teams up with WB's division commanders to deal with the admiral. Again, this doesn't establish any equality between the two in question. Croc didn't even fight WB. Obviously he would have gotten destroyed if he tried. His assassination attempt was thwarted by Luffy. He never made physical contact with WB. The point is, brief, inconclusive clashes don't definitively determine tiers. Quote:
KO Luffy in one hit? Yes, he was a rookie, but I think you're greatly underestimating his resilience. Luffy's will power and rubber defenses keep him going. That's been shown time and time again. Quote:
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2011-05-06, 17:38 | Link #594 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: East Cupcake
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To put the discussion in perspective, if Enel were to have fought at Marineford, none but the Admirals, Whitebeard and his best, and the best of the Shichibukai (and Luffy ) would have stood a chance against him. Simply because you have been defeated in the past does not mean you will be defeated in the future (though, Crocodile has a pretty big weakness that increases exponentially when fighting at sea). Crocodile did nothing more at Marineford than he did at Alabasta, in fact he was probably weaker at Marineford (considering he did not have a desert of sand and an arid environment to help in his techniques).
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2011-05-06, 18:40 | Link #595 | |||||||
da big boss
Join Date: Jul 2006
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But brief as it was there's evidence in this fight alone that does support my argument. One punch from Jozu had as much of an effect, or imo, the same as one punch from a 30 million bounty head rookie? It's not like Jozu doesn't have any physical strength, ask that skyscraper sized iceberg that he through at the marines. He got hurt by a guy who fought on par with an admiral in a similar fashion to how he got hurt by pre-gear, fresh out of east blue, sub 100mil bounty Luffy. I'm sorry that doesn't make any logical sense to me. Quote:
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And what about Mr. 1, I'm pretty sure he didn't have this kind of power before either. Unlike Crocodile, I don't recall him mentioning anything about a handicap in his fight with Zoro. Sure, you could argue he wasn't taking that fight seriously either, but that still doesn't explain the outcome. One slash from Zoro and he's out cold. Two attacks from Mihawk and he's relatively fine? He even mentioned how he had gotten out of shape in prison suggesting he may have been stronger before. I guess if you squint your eyes this would all make sense, but realistically there seems to be something missing. And just to clarify, (because it seems James has also hit me with a "just because you beat 'em doesn't mean your stronger" comment), I'm well aware that defeating someone doesn't mean you're stronger. In fact in my earlier post I said, and I quote " I myself have felt for a long time Crocodile was stronger than Luffy." My argument was about the leap he took from that to how he performed in the war. Which from my perspective looked like way too much for a guy who lost to a 30 million bounty head even if he wasn't taking the fight seriously.
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Last edited by cheese4u; 2011-05-06 at 18:51. |
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2011-05-06, 18:47 | Link #596 | |
Dark Energy
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: United States
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But since we're on the subject of bounties: Didn't Oda say that, had anyone known Crocodile was Mr. 0, the leader of Baroque Works, his bounty would have more than doubled, making it 162+ million beri? By your logic, his strength in the war makes a lot more sense when you take that into consideration.
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2011-05-06, 19:16 | Link #597 | |||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2007
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Jozu's Brilliant Punk is more of a GTFO move. He tackles the person with his forearm. The nature of said attack would do less damage than a punch. Quote:
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Just because you intercept/stop someone, it doesn't mean you're in their league. I can't stress this enough.
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2011-05-06, 20:12 | Link #598 | ||||||
da big boss
Join Date: Jul 2006
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@Kuroi Hadou We, or at least I, wasn't arguing about Crocodile's bounty. His was inactive at the time so it didn't really matter. I was arguing about Luffy's bounty at the time.
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Now take note that I'm not saying Crocodile can defeat Mihawk, Akainu, Jozu, or Doflamingo. I'm saying that he was fighting on par with them (i. e. as if he were at or around their strength). Which IMO he was.
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2011-05-06, 22:10 | Link #599 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Well, seeing as cheese4u's so adamant that Croc and Daz somehow powered up after their defeat in Alabasta, I suppose I can provide a possible answer to this claim: The two of them were served a generous helping of Iva's hormone milkshake during the ID prison break. That's right, expect to see a gender-swapped post-skip Crocoboygirl and Daz in the near future!
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2011-05-06, 22:25 | Link #600 | |||||
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Join Date: Dec 2007
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Why are you trying to quantitatively measure the difference in fighting blows here? That's not even important. Croc was repeatedly punched through layers of bedrock, and that was enough to finally put him down. That's high damage soak right there. Despite Jozu being leagues above Luffy, one Brilliant Punk won't be enough to put down Croc. It takes a decent amount of effort to put someone of warlord caliber down. Croc would have undoubtedly lost to Jozu. Jozu is faster, stronger, adept at Haki usage, and has better feats overall. This is one of WB's top subordinates we're talking about. Quote:
Just because Croc may be weaker than some of these top guys doesn't mean that he would get absolutely slaughtered in a fight. It seems you're having trouble understanding this. Quote:
But again, just because Croc is weaker than those elites doesn't mean that he can't hang with them for a while. He was chosen for a reason by the WG to become a warlord. And all of his brief exchanges with those characters were just that: brief exchanges. That doesn't properly tell you how a real uninterrupted fight would go down between the fighters in question. Quote:
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This argument is going nowhere. You're the only one who believes Croc got stronger, whereas myself and others have already provided in-depth explanations as to why that's not the case. But feel free to believe what you want.
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