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Old 2016-06-22, 08:44   Link #21
Kazu-kun
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I don't know about others, but I admit I'm totally biased in favor of pretty girls. Yeah, I'm shallow like that. Sue me.


That been said, I'm willing to give Windermere the benefit of the doubt, and I certainly don't think NUNS are the good guys here.
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Old 2016-06-22, 10:08   Link #22
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
I certainly don't think NUNS are the good guys here.
Well... Honestly, apart from the original series, were they ever the "good guys"? Macross 7 already showed a split; Plus had test pilots but little to no government involvment; Zero... Better leave that one alone... Frontier had Leon and Cathy. At most, they were support players - but, mainly, they were background characters, if not outright antagonists. And, even back when, Kawamori himself did state plainly he regrets the ultimate "military" conclusion to the original series, so... Not even, IMHO. The good guys are almost always the outliers.

That's not to say the Wind is in the right, here. I haven't seen much evidence to support it, either way.
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Old 2016-06-22, 11:16   Link #23
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Originally Posted by LoweGear View Post
The Windermerians also lose to Lelouche for not having the latter's FABULOUSNESS and sheer awesome charisma
Then he turned into Luca Angeloni.
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Old 2016-06-22, 11:16   Link #24
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
That been said, I'm willing to give Windermere the benefit of the doubt,
But what is there to doubt?

It is one thing if Windermere say that they are the saviours of the galaxy and that they have the best interest of the world at heart, but they haven't said ANYTHING like that at all.

Yes, there was a bomb and they said that NUN dropped it. But that has nothing to do with the current conflict. It isn't the reason they started this war. What doubt are you giving them? That they are the Master Race and Heir of Protoculture, and that they have the moral right and Manifest Destiny to rule the known galaxy via mind control? Because that is the ONLY justification they have ever offered here.

The Windermere are not even PRETENDING to be good guys. They never tried to defend what they do as being morally right. So why are you assuming they must be doing something righteous despite the fact that their own side doesn't believe it?
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Old 2016-06-22, 11:54   Link #25
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It has everything to do with current conflict. If you think otherwise it just means you didn't pay any attention. They mention that like... every episode
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Old 2016-06-22, 11:55   Link #26
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Lets see the motivations of the Windererean leadership.

Gramia wants to kill all Terrans as revenge and their allies establishing an empire. The whole Starwind sector/Wind Sphere is pretty much Imperial Japan's East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere. Ernest describe him as a prideful man.

Roid views Windermere and Brisingr cluster races as the heirs of the Protoculture as they the last to be created according to him, Heinz the Wind Singer should be the king of the Protoculture thus Windermeran royalty ruler of all races, and end this war in negotiation with the NUN recognizing that and treat the Kingdom of Wind as an equal state. Sounds like this philosophy came out of insecurity of their own place in the universe. Most of his theories come from speculation rather than hearing what the Protoculture said about themselves. Certain Terrans have genetic memory making a connection between Protoculture and Vajra. Zentradi had records of the Protoculture conflict. The AI of Rax gave an overview of their history and mixed blood being the password. Before it was destroyed it transmitted what it can to the Macross 7 fleet. There is a Protoculture survivor on one of their colonies but Roid doesn't know that.

Keith has the kill them all attitude and would kill even his own people if they go against the Kingdom of Wind. Unlike his father and Roid he hold the Protoculture in contempt for making their lifespans short. He is right in Terrans not caring of Windermere calling themselves heir of the Protoculture or the Protoculture themselves. Keith is in a hurry to achieve his goals and is willing to die in battle rather than wither away.

The Kingdom of Wind knows they can't win this war through conventional means hence mind control plot. As seen in the last episode Gramia prefers not a direct fight with Ernest. All this at the enslave 8 billion people expense of Heinz life. For all his love of his people and pride he does not love his own sons.
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Old 2016-06-22, 12:06   Link #27
Kazu-kun
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
The Windermere are not even PRETENDING to be good guys. They never tried to defend what they do as being morally right. So why are you assuming they must be doing something righteous despite the fact that their own side doesn't believe it?
I don't really care so much whether their cause is "righteous." I'm more concerned about understanding what the hell is going on. Honestly, I don't really know what is their motivation. Roid talks about the Protoculture and whatnot but it's clear Keith doesn't give a damn about that, and the king only uses it as propaganda. Everyone seems to fight for something but I don't see the actual reason Windermere as a nation chose to go to war. The show is being pretty ambiguous about it.

My guess is that they're doing this for revenge. In the manga we're shown that Keith treasured Heinz as a brother and Roid as a friend, but then something happened, probably during the war 7 years ago, which changed him. Now his anger and hate towards NUNS is so strong that he's willing to sacrifice Heinz and distance himself from Roid. The king seems to be the same.

So what happened? What did NUNS do?

Mind you. Even if I'm right and this is all about revenge, it doesn't mean their motivation is righteous. But again, I don't care about that. I just want to understand where they're coming from. That's what I mean when I said I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt.

Besides, if this is about anger for something horrible NUNS did to them in the past, maybe Chaos can placate that anger with the magic of music and stop the war. This is Macross after all, so that sort of ending wouldn't be out of place.
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Old 2016-06-22, 12:57   Link #28
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
You're probably right, but of the two, I can more easily imagine Tony sympathizing with Windermere. Or at least sympathizing with Roid. Since Roid is a scientist conducting research on the protoculture ruins, which a scientist/inventor like Tony would probably see value in. For much the same reason, I think Tony would dislike the idea of NUNs blowing up Ragna's protoculture ruins without first thoroughly studying them.

Basically, yeah, both Cap and Tony would be against Windermere, but if you have to pick one to champion the "Windermere are sympathetic antagonists" side, Tony is the right pick, imo.
I think you have it backwards. Tony sided with the central authority. Pretty boy fighting people for the ideals he holds dear with no regards for the consequences is more Cap's speed. (At least when it comes to the Civil War movie.)

(Though year, the Windermere royals are basically supervillains now. Which brings us back to Cap siding with them, if you've read Cap's recent comic book...)

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Originally Posted by Mistyclear View Post
Did anyone ever notice that if it's the protagonist(s) that are doing the whole revenge or brainwashing thing then so many fans find it completely acceptable and in fact encourage said protagonist(s)... (Dearest Lelouch one of the more popular (famous) anime characters and he's infamous for brainwashing/ manipulating quite a lot of people (for often tragic results) grant it maybe not millions (at least I don't think so...)and don't even get me started on Light)
Then again I'm not saying what Windermere is doing is correct (hell by my own morals I dislike it a lot) I'm just saying fans can be a little uh morally ambiguous in concerns to certain protagonists actions.
As has been said, Lelouch's always been clear to himself he was no hero. Furthermore:
- he had a clearly evil empire to overthrow;
- the evils he purposely committed were mostly temporary in nature. (Plus the deaths that are the price of making even a necessary war.) He didn't set out to conquer the world and forever hold it in bondage.
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Old 2016-06-22, 13:26   Link #29
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
I don't really care so much whether their cause is "righteous." I'm more concerned about understanding what the hell is going on. Honestly, I don't really know what is their motivation. Roid talks about the Protoculture and whatnot but it's clear Keith doesn't give a damn about that, and the king only uses it as propaganda. Everyone seems to fight for something but I don't see the actual reason Windermere as a nation chose to go to war. The show is being pretty ambiguous about it.
What's so ambiguous about it?
They are a kingdom. They went to war to gain territory. What made you think there is any more than that?

There is absolutely nothing unusual about Windermere and what they are currently doing. Everything they said and behaved had been how real life nations started major wars. Flimsy claims of cultural rights to new lands, some past insult with its neighbours that made them mad, and general desire to be a bigger nation than they currently are.

Sure, they got bombed, but every nation has complaints about its neighbours. Not a pretext for world war at all. It is something that is always done but never amount to anything.

Windermere is the most REALISTIC portrayal of a nation starting a war for their own benefit, that I can think of. They are not twirling moustaches, attaching lasers to sharks or making evil laughs, they just... kill people. For territory. That's what real people do. There is no need for there to be any kind of rightous reason beyond that.
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Old 2016-06-22, 13:34   Link #30
Kazu-kun
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
What's so ambiguous about it?
They are a kingdom. They went to war to gain territory. What made you think there is any more than that?
We must be watching different shows, because I've got no clue where you got that idea.

Anyway, I already posted my take on the actual reasons for this war. Now I'll just sit here and wait for the anime to reveal what really happened and see if I was right.
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Last edited by Kazu-kun; 2016-06-22 at 13:45.
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Old 2016-06-22, 13:45   Link #31
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
We must be watching a different anime, because I've got no clue where you got that idea.
History? Real life history and why people go to war?

Of course the nation has grievances. But the grievances were never enough to justify war. It's just that when you are in a war you are free to shout how much you hate your enemies, instead of keeping one's mouth shut. But in the end they are going to war to gain ruins, to strength their super-weapon further, and using that increased power to expand. This is exactly the same as in WW2 when both German and Japan took over resource-rich nations specifically to allow them to have greater manufacturing capabilities, and using that capability to expand the war even more. This HAPPENED. This is how wars work. Not hypothetical, actual REAL war. And all the talks about Manifest Destiny and cultural superiority was also very much a part of it.

Windermere is a fusion of multiple warmongering nations in our recent history. There is nothing unusual about their actions in any way. Everything they did, someone in real life had already done before.

Windermere soldiers are very much realistic. They kill because they benefit their nation through murder. Some might also think they are getting their revenge for the bombing, but really, in the end it is just all about forming empires. You don't need to look evil to do evil.
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Old 2016-06-22, 13:50   Link #32
Kazu-kun
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
History? Real life history and why people go to war?
Perhaps you should focus a little less in real-life history and a little more in Macross history. Also pay attention to Delta's side material too, and what the show itself says about the characters.

All in all, I honestly have no clue where you got the idea that the king or Keith are even remotely interested in expanding their territory. Let alone Roid whose main interest is the Protoculture.
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Old 2016-06-22, 13:56   Link #33
BetoJR
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
Also pay attention to Delta's side material too, and what the show itself says about the characters.
Yeah, we can't do that, when the material isn't easily accessible to us, now can we?
The show should work by itself, without outside "help" - and I'm not the one saying it doesn't, mind you. Now, if the outside material is used to expand on the original, then it's just fine. If it's fundamental in making us understand it? Then, something's definitely wrong.
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Old 2016-06-22, 13:57   Link #34
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
All in all, I honestly have no clue where you got the idea that the king or Keith are even remotely interested in expanding their territory.
The fact they expanded their territory is a bit of a giveaway.

Quote:
Let alone Roid whose main interest is the Protoculture.
Which he used to expand their territory.
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Old 2016-06-22, 13:59   Link #35
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
Perhaps you should focus a little less in real-life history and a little more in Macross history. Also pay attention to Delta's side material too, and what the show itself says about the characters.

All in all, I honestly have no clue where you got the idea that the king or Keith are even remotely interested in expanding their territory. Let alone Roid whose main interest is the Protoculture.
Protoculture was a universe-wide empire. To be the Heir of Protoculture means to rule where Protoculture ruled, which is EVERYWHERE.

Expanding their territory is the only reason to do what they did. They are a very traditional nation with a very traditional army.

In Macross History, most enemies were nothing like the people we know. They don't act like humans. But Windermere does, for once. They are not giant bugs, or energy beings, or clone troopers. They are a kingdom doing kingdom things. This is not the same as any other war in Macross EVER. Trying to use past Macross shows to infer the flow of the plot isn't going to work here.
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Old 2016-06-22, 14:02   Link #36
Kazu-kun
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
The fact they expanded their territory is a bit of a giveaway.
I'm talking about motivations. It's definitely not clear why they're doing this.

Quote:
Which he used to expand their territory.
They used it to fight. We still don't know why they're fighting.

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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Expanding their territory is the only reason to do what they did..
That's just your theory. I can think of like ten different reasons. I could probably come up with more if I think hard enough.
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Old 2016-06-22, 14:05   Link #37
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Every of Windermere actions can be simply accounted their effort to get Terrans out of cluster aside of obtaining military resources for that there was literally zero imperialistic implications.
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Old 2016-06-22, 14:26   Link #38
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Every of Windermere actions can be simply accounted their effort to get Terrans out of cluster aside of obtaining military resources for that there was literally zero imperialistic implications.
Really? On Voldor they are trying to strong arm the Voldorans to declare war on the NUN when the NUN has a beneficial relationship with them.

Windermere bans all local produce for their own. This would affect the Voldoran economy as Windermere is taking away their livelihoods in order to mind control them.

Voldor's leader even mocks Roid's thesis when in fact Windermere does not view them as allies but as a vassal state and Windermere would attack civilians with their own forces if they revolt.

As said before Shoji Kawamori is drawing parallel between Windermere and Imperial Japan with its ambitions. Not the first time he has criticized his own country on its policies.
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Old 2016-06-22, 14:26   Link #39
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
That's just your theory. I can think of like ten different reasons. I could probably come up with more if I think hard enough.
They TOLD you why they fight. They had no reason to lie. They declared war, and they told us on that moment why they did so. Why is their own words not good enough?

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Originally Posted by Tenzen12 View Post
Every of Windermere actions can be simply accounted their effort to get Terrans out of cluster aside of obtaining military resources for that there was literally zero imperialistic implications.
Their manifesto that they announced on the day they declared war is literally imperialistic. Are you going to ignore their own official announcements?
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Old 2016-06-22, 15:03   Link #40
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But what is there to doubt?

It is one thing if Windermere say that they are the saviours of the galaxy and that they have the best interest of the world at heart, but they haven't said ANYTHING like that at all.

Yes, there was a bomb and they said that NUN dropped it. But that has nothing to do with the current conflict. It isn't the reason they started this war. What doubt are you giving them? That they are the Master Race and Heir of Protoculture, and that they have the moral right and Manifest Destiny to rule the known galaxy via mind control? Because that is the ONLY justification they have ever offered here.

The Windermere are not even PRETENDING to be good guys. They never tried to defend what they do as being morally right. So why are you assuming they must be doing something righteous despite the fact that their own side doesn't believe it?
How is claiming multiple times to be liberating the cluster from their enemies not trying to paint themselves as the good guys? If you said they were being hypocrites I would agree, but when you say they're not even trying to claim to be the good guys, you're just flat out wrong.

Roid's declaration of war in Episode 4 is meant for outside consumption. Roid was smart enough not to be bated into an argument about who detonated the WMD on Windermere when talking to the Voldoran leader. I'm inclined to think Roid's declaration of war was meant to try to appeal to grievances other planets may have had against the NUN, which are more likely to be about economics and sovereignty.

The other Windermereans? They focus on that WMD and its effects a lot. Cassim lost his entire family to it. Keith and Gramia are enraged by it. Its clearly a big deal to them.
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