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View Poll Results: Macross Delta - Episode 25 Rating
Perfect 10 1 3.85%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 5 19.23%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 6 23.08%
7 out of 10 : Good 6 23.08%
6 out of 10 : Average 4 15.38%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 1 3.85%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 3 11.54%
Voters: 26. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2016-09-19, 10:04   Link #81
magnuskn
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The Windermerans are fucking deluded. Cognitive dissonance at its worst. "We are going to liberate the galaxy! By enslaving it!" At this point, I must even ask myself what Roids endgame really is. It is a very real possibility that he has been overtaken by some protoculture entity (remember that spark of energy entering his head some epidodes ago?).

I won't try to prettify what NUNS tried to do this episode, however at this point it probably was the only solution outside of complete surrender. Why they felt that they needed to come up with a cover story is a bit beyond me, "we had no other choice but to blow up Windermere, otherwise the entire galaxy would have been enslaved forever" is a pretty good excuse for drastic action.

So, Kawamori is once again teasing the return of Minmay, eh? First off, I'm not ready to believe that she'll turn up (since he already did this same tease in Frontier) and secondly, what about Misa and Hikaru?

Anybody still wants to deny that music can be used as a weapon? Another entire fleet destroyed by it kinda makes the argument for me.

And another one of the things which bother me about this series became clear this week... the lack of passion I feel coming from the characters. Kaname saying "I want our songs to reach the entire galaxy" felt so "meh" to me in the energy department. No comparison to chibi-Sheryl declaring that to chibi-Alto.

Yeah, and death flags flying every which way this episode. Let's see if they hit the right people.
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Old 2016-09-19, 10:17   Link #82
SleepingTerror
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That was a really beautiful episode. HayaFrey moment accompanied by Ai Oboete Imasu ka, followed by dimensional weapon activation..
I really was hoping Heinz would get a grip this episode, but maybe it really does just take a couple thousand lives.
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Old 2016-09-19, 10:26   Link #83
Convoy
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Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
He was the one that gave the order he knew what would happen. You can't wash the blood off his hands as he is pretty much aware of it now.

Heinz isn't innocent as you'd like to defend him.

He made a decision however wrong it is and stuck with it.
I agree. What did that damn idiot think was going to happen to the NUNS fleet which he personally declared to oppose?
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Old 2016-09-19, 10:32   Link #84
Thess
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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
I won't try to prettify what NUNS tried to do this episode, however at this point it probably was the only solution outside of complete surrender. Why they felt that they needed to come up with a cover story is a bit beyond me, "we had no other choice but to blow up Windermere, otherwise the entire galaxy would have been enslaved forever" is a pretty good excuse for drastic action.
Yes, because they were obviously going to use it... what for? Did you forget Windermere only waged a war because NUNS used illegal weapons on them and lied about it, and had the cheek to push an embargo on them? They couldn't even use it without: Epsilon (which took years to make it functional) or Chaos (who created Mikumo). You're just excusing genocidal maniacs portrayed as unambiguously evil because you hate Windermere. Even if this episode showed NUNS were evil and Windermere is sick of those actual war criminals: because unlike the singing, those dimensional weapons are indeed FORBIDDEN. Go figure.

At least they got what they deserved in the end. A fitting end for warmongers.

Windermere actions are still bad, but they have at least more a justification, and they will be defeated by Chaos, the heroes. Just in the scale of evilness, NUNS here are the bigger evil, defeated by the lesser which in turn will be beaten by our protagonists. Maybe... Because after this episode, it just seems that Heinz and Keith will turn against Roid (at least it really reminded me of Yasuda's statement this seems to be the endgame, cringeeee) which makes me wonder what was the point of Hayate, Freyja and company. I certainly hope they do something because it feels (once more) I'm watching two stories without connection hastily put together.

Anyway, the state of war really reflects Kawamori's pre-show statements about music and weapons. He sees the use of destructive weapons as unambiguously worst thing ever (NUNS) and music could be bad (Mind control - Windermere) or good (understanding, coming together. Walkure?).
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Last edited by Thess; 2016-09-19 at 10:44.
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Old 2016-09-19, 10:44   Link #85
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@Triple_R
True, and it'll be heart-breaking for Hayate if Freyja dies. Their times they spent together will all go down the drain.
I'm 95% confident that Freyja gets a happy ending... or goes out in a pacifistic blaze of glory.

"Songs are a weapon. It was just as I thought." - Berger

Right after Berger says those words, we get a close-in shot on Freyja's face. It's a little different expression for her. It's a sterner one. Freyja seems a little stronger to me than she did the last time she heard Berger. I think that Freyja wants to prove Berger wrong. Or, at the very least, prove that songs can also be used to create peace.

And maybe Freyja will accomplish that. But if she does, it may drain her rune completely, ending her life. That's probably the most powerful way Delta could end. But it's probably not the happiest. It's going to be interesting to see if Delta aims for a powerful tear-jerking ending, or a more happy one. It'll probably be one or the other.


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Originally Posted by SleepingTerror View Post
That was a really beautiful episode. HayaFrey moment accompanied by Ai Oboete Imasu ka, followed by dimensional weapon activation..
I really was hoping Heinz would get a grip this episode, but maybe it really does just take a couple thousand lives.
If it's any consolation, Heinz's situation is probably very bad now for him. If Thess is right, Heinz likely feels emotionally devastated at what he just did.

In a very real sense, this is what happened:

Roid loaded a gun called "Mikumo". Roid handed that gun to Heinz. Heinz pulled the trigger. Thousands died as a result, and Heinz watched it happen. If that surprised Heinz, he's probably going straight into emotional hell. He might get an end as pitiful as dying, while crying, with visions of blood all over his hands.

It's hard to hate Heinz given his age, and given what's likely coming his way (even if he lives, he'll likely feel great guilt). He's probably going to suffer a fate as harsh as almost any imaginable punishment could be. Keep that in mind if you want to see him punished in a legal way.
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Old 2016-09-19, 10:47   Link #86
Thess
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"Songs are a weapon. It was just as I thought." - Berger

Right after Berger says those words, we get a close-in shot on Freyja's face. It's a little different expression for her. It's a sterner one. Freyja seems a little stronger to me than she did the last time she heard Berger. I think that Freyja wants to prove Berger wrong. Or, at the very least, prove that songs can also be used to create peace.
Yes, they put this on hold for episodes, but I remember that I said Freyja's going to try to prove him wrong and give an answer of MUSIC IS "..." that isn't Genki (something she made up on the fly for a concert).
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Old 2016-09-19, 11:01   Link #87
magnuskn
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Yes, because they were obviously going to use it... what for? Did you forget Windermere only waged a war because NUNS used illegal weapons on them and lied about it, and had the cheek to push an embargo on them? They couldn't even use it without: Epsilon (which took years to make it functional) or Chaos (who created Mikumo). You're just excusing genocidal maniacs portrayed as unambiguously evil because you hate Windermere. Even if this episode showed NUNS were evil and Windermere is sick of those actual war criminals: because unlike the singing, those dimensional weapons are indeed FORBIDDEN. Go figure.

At least they got what they deserved in the end. A fitting end for warmongers.
Yeah, your obsession with making NUNS the most evillest organization in the history of the Macross franchise is once again making an appearance. No surprise there, you have been trying to twist everything in that direction forever.

I am not excusing their initial actions on Windermere. Those were pretty obviously bad by now and the pre-emptive bombing of the ruins was a bad action, definitely.

I was talking about the do or die situatation Windermere has put the entire freaking galaxy in with their delusional warmongering mass-slavery actions, which they obliviously declare to be about "freedom". Maybe freedom for their master race ambitions, that is pretty clear by now.

Your defense of this regime of racist warmongers is as deplorable as always. Also completely delusional. "Yes, those minor characters who made cameos in four or five episodes are the REAL EVIL of this series". Right.
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Old 2016-09-19, 11:09   Link #88
Matts
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So, Kawamori is once again teasing the return of Minmay, eh?

Misa and Hikaru has a daughter named Miku. Just adding to the toll.
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Old 2016-09-19, 11:11   Link #89
Convoy
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Yes, because they were obviously going to use it... what for? Did you forget Windermere only waged a war because NUNS used illegal weapons on them and lied about it, and had the cheek to push an embargo on them? They couldn't even use it without: Epsilon (which took years to make it functional) or Chaos (who created Mikumo). You're just excusing genocidal maniacs portrayed as unambiguously evil because you hate Windermere. Even if this episode showed NUNS were evil and Windermere is sick of those actual war criminals: because unlike the singing, those dimensional weapons are indeed FORBIDDEN. Go figure.
You want to defend the NUNS for attempting genocide on Windermere? Windermere's crimes against the rest of the galaxy constitute genocide.

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Yeah, your obsession with making NUNS the most evillest organization in the history of the Macross franchise is once again making an appearance. No surprise there, you have been trying to twist everything in that direction forever.

I am not excusing their initial actions on Windermere. Those were pretty obviously bad by now and the pre-emptive bombing of the ruins was a bad action, definitely.

I was talking about the do or die situatation Windermere has put the entire freaking galaxy in with their delusional warmongering mass-slavery actions, which they obliviously declare to be about "freedom". Maybe freedom for their master race ambitions, that is pretty clear by now.
I almost agree that this is a kill or be killed situation. If the NUNS was smart, then they would have gone with some kind of surgical strike against Windermere's military, or gone with Lady M/Minmay's reasoning to rally to the defense of the shrine on Ragna. And not let it get out that they have dimensional warheads in their possession.
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Old 2016-09-19, 11:12   Link #90
SleepingTerror
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Roid loaded a gun called "Mikumo". Roid handed that gun to Heinz. Heinz pulled the trigger. Thousands died as a result, and Heinz watched it happen. If that surprised Heinz, he's probably going straight into emotional hell. He might get an end as pitiful as dying, while crying, with visions of blood all over his hands.

It's hard to hate Heinz given his age, and given what's likely coming his way (even if he lives, he'll likely feel great guilt). He's probably going to suffer a fate as harsh as almost any imaginable punishment could be. Keep that in mind if you want to see him punished in a legal way.
I don't hate him, I just hate when kids get a free pass on responsibility. I am almost certain Heinz knew what was going to happen. Knowing what is going to happen and feeling what has happened are two different things. Fortunately and unfortunately, legal punishment probably can't be worse than the guilt he will feel, if he's as childlike as he is portrayed.
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Old 2016-09-19, 11:13   Link #91
Matts
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Basically. I only skim through episodes at this point but the final scene made me feel sick. Like, the way the characters were animated, the suffering. Fuck Wind. Fuck Roid.
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Old 2016-09-19, 11:14   Link #92
Thess
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I was talking about the do or die situatation Windermere has put the entire freaking galaxy in with their delusional warmongering mass-slavery actions, which they obliviously declare to be about "freedom". Maybe freedom for their master race ambitions, that is pretty clear by now.
They weren't going to bomb Windermere, though. They were going to bomb Ragna. You know the protagonist side's beloved planet and home? And again it made Heinz and other Windermerian characters justified in their crusade against them because they were proving them that "they are really evil after all."

I'm just saying how the show is portraying them: as unambiguously evil antagonistic forces, worse than Windermere because there's no sob story and no ambiguity for their actions. We know the dimensional weapons are forbidden, using them constitutes, dare I say... a war crime, go figure. We don't know how is the legislation about Var and Star Singer because hey, nobody brought it up. But they always bring up how illegal is the use Dimensional Eaters, when came to Var and all that, it's just arguments about morals instead of legislation. I'm pointing that out because people wonder about the legal repercussions when... the ones who clearly broke the law were the NUNS.

Mind you, I said "clearly", I don't know exactly what laws are regulating singing but I'm just using what the show, the novel, the manga give us and nowhere there is mentioned Windermere actions are basis for a war crime, only that it's dishonorable for the Knights -Herman feels bad about it- or morally wrong or upsetting like any act of warfare is. That's why when they argue about it, nobody brings up "we have this clause in this treaty" but instead "it's bad and people suffers" (a basis of argument I DO agree with). I'm siding with Freyja and Hayate in the big picture, but with Windermere against the NUNS (as the show portrays them).

Anyway, hilariously, your precious Alto did the same thing as Keith in Frontier: supported a shady guy with a bad agenda in defense of his home and allowed the most important person of his life sing herself to early grave to weaponize her for the defense of his homeland. I see little difference between Keith and Alto, aside of the lack of crossdressing woes. They both ran away from their homes, estranged themselves from their families, became angry teens, in general. It's like they took Alto and gave him runes and more competent flying skills and, voila, Keith. Keith is sorely lacking someone with Sheryl's personality to kick his ass, though.
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Old 2016-09-19, 11:15   Link #93
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Me no japanese, so what is the truth behind of Wright, Falcon 2 and dimension bomb?
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Old 2016-09-19, 11:25   Link #94
SleepingTerror
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Me no japanese, so what is the truth behind of Wright, Falcon 2 and dimension bomb?
Wright redirected the bomb so that there'd be fewer casualties.
Subs are out btw.
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Old 2016-09-19, 11:37   Link #95
Annorax
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So which is it now?

Was Wright:
1. bomb NUNS base for independance.
2. bomb NUNS base so civilian population in place wont get bombed.
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Old 2016-09-19, 11:50   Link #96
Jingdot
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So which is it now?

Was Wright:
1. bomb NUNS base for independance.
2. bomb NUNS base so civilian population in place wont get bombed.
The NUNS wanted Immeldad to drop the bomb of at the royal capital. He refused to do that and wanted to drop the bomb off somewhere far away where it cant harm the people of Windermere or anyone in general. They even argued with him that he should go back to the planned route but Wright lied and said that there are turbulences on the planned route, even though there weren't any. NUNS noticed this and switched his VF to remote control, after Immeldad cut the connection to them. Because of the remote control, the dimensional was sent to go off.
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Old 2016-09-19, 11:53   Link #97
CriiGV
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@Triple_R and Benigmatica I really hope Freyja manages to make it out alive of this. I've gotten really attached to her and seeing her suffer throughout the series (specially from episode 17 and onwards) I will be severely devastated if she doesn't get a happy end. I want her to keep singing and smiling and just spreading her Gori Gori charm across the Galaxy.

I am conscious however that the Staff could choose to make Freyja go out in a blaze of peaceful glory, like RRR said and I agree it'd make a huge impact (but I don't want this!). And the fact that Hayate promised to protect her, her planet, Ragna and the Galaxy could factor in two ways.

1. Hayate manages to protect her and she makes it out alive.
2. Hayate doesn't manage to protect her but as his final promise to her, he dedicates his life to protecting all the things he promised her this episode.

Ok, now I'm sad. I'll just...see myself out....

FREYJAAAAAA ( ͒˃̩̩⌂˂̩̩ ͒)
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Old 2016-09-19, 12:28   Link #98
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Mind you, I said "clearly", I don't know exactly what laws are regulating singing but I'm just using what the show, the novel, the manga give us and nowhere there is mentioned Windermere actions are basis for a war crime, only that it's dishonorable for the Knights -Herman feels bad about it- or morally wrong or upsetting like any act of warfare is. That's why when they argue about it, nobody brings up "we have this clause in this treaty" but instead "it's bad and people suffers" (a basis of argument I DO agree with).
Are you serious? It doesn't even need to be said that the Windermere leadership's actions are a war crime because they are. I'm pretty sure that controlling entire planets with mind control and turning billions of innocent people into zombie drones while tormenting everyone else is a war crime, not to mention simultaneously making an entire planet, civilians and all, fall unconscious at the same time resulting in thousands of deaths from accidents.

It has shitall to do with the laws regarding "singing", why the hell would you bring generic singing in general into a discussion about legalities. The *weaponized* singing is used as a means to hurt, kill and control people in a despicable way, in there lies the problem.
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Old 2016-09-19, 12:34   Link #99
magnuskn
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They weren't going to bomb Windermere, though. They were going to bomb Ragna. You know the protagonist side's beloved planet and home? And again it made Heinz and other Windermerian characters justified in their crusade against them because they were proving them that "they are really evil after all."
I missed that, but that doesn't change that Windermere put NUNS in a do or die situation. Sorry, trying to move the goalposts doesn't work here for you.

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I'm just saying how the show is portraying them: as unambiguously evil antagonistic forces, worse than Windermere because there's no sob story and no ambiguity for their actions. We know the dimensional weapons are forbidden, using them constitutes, dare I say... a war crime, go figure. We don't know how is the legislation about Var and Star Singer because hey, nobody brought it up. But they always bring up how illegal is the use Dimensional Eaters, when came to Var and all that, it's just arguments about morals instead of legislation. I'm pointing that out because people wonder about the legal repercussions when... the ones who clearly broke the law were the NUNS.
Oh, for fucks sake. Yes, they are using "illegal weapons" (i.e. nukes), but you trying to legalistic bullshit about Windermere using "music weapons" doesn't make their actions any less reprehensible or morally corrupt. For. Fucks. Sake. Stop it, I am beyond disgusted at this point with you.

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Mind you, I said "clearly", I don't know exactly what laws are regulating singing but I'm just using what the show, the novel, the manga give us and nowhere there is mentioned Windermere actions are basis for a war crime, only that it's dishonorable for the Knights -Herman feels bad about it- or morally wrong or upsetting like any act of warfare is. That's why when they argue about it, nobody brings up "we have this clause in this treaty" but instead "it's bad and people suffers" (a basis of argument I DO agree with). I'm siding with Freyja and Hayate in the big picture, but with Windermere against the NUNS (as the show portrays them).
Yeah, what a good argument, that Windermerans in general are behaving like sociopaths and racists towards other races and therefore they don't feel bad about hurting them. Cry me a fucking river, Windbags.

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Anyway, hilariously, your precious Alto did the same thing as Keith in Frontier: supported a shady guy with a bad agenda in defense of his home and allowed the most important person of his life sing herself to early grave to weaponize her for the defense of his homeland. I see little difference between Keith and Alto, aside of the lack of crossdressing woes. They both ran away from their homes, estranged themselves from their families, became angry teens, in general. It's like they took Alto and gave him runes and more competent flying skills and, voila, Keith. Keith is sorely lacking someone with Sheryl's personality to kick his ass, though.
*censored* Back on ignore with you, I thought maybe you had gotten over your shitty attitude. I was wrong.
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Old 2016-09-19, 12:47   Link #100
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The Windermerans are fucking deluded. Cognitive dissonance at its worst. "We are going to liberate the galaxy! By enslaving it!"
While there is definitely some cognitive dissonance among the Windermereans, I have to question whether any of them aside from Roid think the plan is to use mind control on everyone permanently rather than as a means of defeating NUNs. I might think differently if we looked in on the occupied worlds and saw everyone looking like VAR zombies, but aside from a few tests (which I do find troubling) when we've checked in on civilians on the occupied worlds they seem to be living remarkably normal lives.
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