Macross - Mecha, Weapons, and Technology

[Spitfire]

Just to add something, I believe I read somewhere that the combat performance of the VF-25 is equivalent to that of the VF-19 and VF-22. Any truth to that?

[squaresphere]

hmmm good point about the rebellion and the availability of high performance fighters.

I think i read some where actually performance of the VF-25 is actually comparable to the VF-19/22 but it probably lacks the advance features like a pin point barrier and active stealth.

Now that I think about it, do the VF-171 use the ex gear system? That's another big plus for the VF-25.

[Guppy]

Originally Posted by Wild Goose

There's also the events of VF-X 2 to consider; after the rebellion in 2050, the UN Spacey may have become wary of OMGWTFPWN high performance fighters in the hands of the masses; should fleets revolt, they'll have craploads of VF-19s in their arsenal, which makes kicking their asses and pacifying them that much harder.

Speaking of VF-X 2, I think it's interesting that in 2050-51 the VF-19 still wasn't the baseline fighter even in a supposedly elite unit; it looked like you had to be a squadron commander or ace to rate one.

Originally Posted by squaresphere

I think i read some where actually performance of the VF-25 is actually comparable to the VF-19/22 but it probably lacks the advance features like a pin point barrier and active stealth.

The VF-25 just screams "conventional" - with its plethora of FAST packs and variants, it really does seem like a true main fighter designed for adaptability and general use. As such, it makes sense that they'd omit the pinpoint barrier system, since it'd be wasted in some roles (sniper, AWACS/ELINT) and most regular pilots probably wouldn't be able to use it effectively in combat anyway.

One odd thing, though - why would they use the wraparound VR cockpit technology in the VF-25, but only have it activate in Battroid mode?

[CaptGloval]

I think it's Brera's VF-27 that's comparable to VF-19 and VF-22. There's talk about this earlier in this thread.

[Spitfire]

Originally Posted by CaptGloval

I think it's Brera's VF-27 that's comparable to VF-19 and VF-22. There's talk about this earlier in this thread.

If anything, it would easily be superior to both fighters, not on the same level of performance.

[Guppy]

Originally Posted by Spitfire

If anything, it would easily be superior to both fighters, not on the same level of performance.

Just the fact that the VF-27 has a cybernetically enhanced pilot, who can surpass normal human manoeuvring limits, should ensure that.

[Spitfire]

Originally Posted by Guppy

Just the fact that the VF-27 has a cybernetically enhanced pilot, who can surpass normal human manoeuvring limits, should ensure that.

I was referring more to its supposed built-in fold capabilities and its 2 built in gun-pods and powerful gun-pod/laser rifle. Not to mention it seems to have what is essentially the VF-25's FAST back built in to it.

[Wild Goose]

Introducing, from the Nanoha OC thread! The Backlog Breaker post! Breaker Pack equipped Ike~

*me climbs into VF-1M with Breaker Pack*

Originally Posted by Spitfire

Just to add something, I believe I read somewhere that the combat performance of the VF-25 is equivalent to that of the VF-19 and VF-22. Any truth to that?

Kawamori has stated that the VF-19 and VF-22 had reached a plateau in speed; they'd gotten to the point where if you went any faster, the G-forces would kill the pilot - which is what happened rather spectacularly with Guld. The VF-25, according to Kawamori, has new technology designed to let it accelerate faster and maintain a higher top speed, which as we've seen is the Ex-Gear system and presumably better inertial dampners.

As for performance, I'm doubtful that the VF-25 in clean configuration could outdo the VF-19; with the Super Pack installed, however, I think it would have a very good chance of equalling or exceeding the VF-19's performance, since it doesn't have Super Packs, just micromissile/fuel FAST packs.

Originally Posted by squaresphere

hmmm good point about the rebellion and the availability of high performance fighters.

I think i read some where actually performance of the VF-25 is actually comparable to the VF-19/22 but it probably lacks the advance features like a pin point barrier and active stealth.

Now that I think about it, do the VF-171 use the ex gear system? That's another big plus for the VF-25.

Yep, the VF-25 lacks active stealth and the pinpoint barrier. The way I'm seeing it, the VF-25 is being intended to compete against the VF-171; both are simpler, no-frills fighters, that are presumably cheaper the manufacture in massed quantities. USAF Cold War doctrine had something similar, relying on massed swarns of F-16s to defeat even greater massed swarms of Soviet fighters, with F-15Es for precision strike roles and F-15Cs for extra oomph. And then as we see with the F-16, addon systems and upgrades can turn it from a no-frills fighter into an effective precision strike platform.

The VF-171s presumably use the Ex-Gear system as well; if they didn't, it would be very strange for the remark by someone (I can't remember, need to rewatch) in Episode 1 (I think it's the Deculture version) that the Ex-Gears used by Alto & co are identical to the military models.

Originally Posted by Guppy

Speaking of VF-X 2, I think it's interesting that in 2050-51 the VF-19 still wasn't the baseline fighter even in a supposedly elite unit; it looked like you had to be a squadron commander or ace to rate one.

Part of that is Gameplay and Story Segregation, but you've got a point there; like the F-22 the VF-19 would probably be quite expensive to produce in massed numbers, which is probably why the VF-11 held out for so long. While the UN Spacey may have built several tens of thousands of VF-19s, and a few thousands of VF-22s (IIRC there's a mission somewhere involving a whole squadron of allied VF-22s), the VF-11C would still have outnumbered both fighters, simply because it's a lot cheaper to build and field. And as mentioned before, while the VF-19 is OMGWTFPWN, your average pilot is not OMGWTFPWN.

The VF-25 just screams "conventional" - with its plethora of FAST packs and variants, it really does seem like a true main fighter designed for adaptability and general use. As such, it makes sense that they'd omit the pinpoint barrier system, since it'd be wasted in some roles (sniper, AWACS/ELINT) and most regular pilots probably wouldn't be able to use it effectively in combat anyway.

To put it another way, the VF-19 is the F-22 Raptor of Macross, a stealthy expensive OMGWTFPWN fighter. The VF-25 meanwhile is closer to a Su-27 Flanker, now that I think of it, in that it's fairly cheaper, simpler to use, build and operate, and can be adapted to various roles (or an F-16, which can be easily swapped between the interceptor, BAI, CAS, strike escort, or precision strike roles within an hour).

One odd thing, though - why would they use the wraparound VR cockpit technology in the VF-25, but only have it activate in Battroid mode?

Probably because the VF-25 in Fighter and GERWALK modes has an excellent field of vision with the normal cockpit, so using the wraparound cockpit would be superfluous.

[grss1982]

Speaking of the various Packs that are being used by the VF-25, a regular at Macross World were I frequent posted the following missile stats for the VF-25 Full Armor:

Originally Posted by Mr March at http://macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?showtopic=26061&st=560&start=560

Been through some discussions and pouring over footage from Macross Frontier to come up with a reasonably accurate missile count for the VF-25S Messiah Full Armor. There are inconsistencies between episode 2 and episode 7, but I've gone with episode 7 simply because the Full Armor variant was presented clearly and uniformly in the big attack sequence by Ozuma.

VF-25S Full Armor Chest and Shoulder Launchers
VF-25S Full Armor Leg Launchers
VF-25S Full Armor Fighter Mode, showing outboard launchers

16 x micro-missiles per leg launcher (with two launchers per leg)
20 x micro-missiles per chest launcher (total of two launchers in the chest)
40 x micro-missiles per shoulder launcher (one launcher per shoulder)
15 x micro-missiles per outboard hatchless launcher (one per wing)

64 x micro-missiles in total for the legs
40 x micro-missiles in the chest
80 x micro-missiles in the shoulders
30 x micro-missiles on the outer wing sections

Total VF-25S Full Armor Missile Count = 214 micro-missiles, full load.

That's definitely a new record for a Macross valkyrie. Previous valkyries had the following missile counts:
VF-0 Phoenix Full Armor = 50 missiles + 6 grenades.
VF-1J GBP-1S Armored Valkyrie = 56 missiles + 18 armor-penetrating projectiles + 6 grenades.
VF-11C Thunderbolt Protect Armor = 84 missiles

As one member who read the above said: "Holy cr@p, that's one frigging big Itano Circus."

[Tak]

Originally Posted by grss1982

As one member who read the above said: "Holy cr@p, that's one frigging big Itano Circus."

HA! I was under the impression that they never run out!

- Tak

[Burner of Anime]

Originally Posted by Tak

HA! I was under the impression that they never run out!

- Tak

The only time someone runs out of bullets/missiles in Macross is when the plot demands they be captured

In other news, seem there's going to be some mecha PRON incoming for all VF fans- or one long CG clip of every VF ever created for the series August release date.

[ReddyRedWolf]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwGF5dOJ4Jw

You mean this?

[.Mero]

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwGF5dOJ4Jw

You mean this?

That looks slick... *wipes drool from mouth*

[Wild Goose]

Holy shit. one big Itano circus alright.

Even discounting the 30 outer wing micromissiles from a Full Armor salvo, since you can't pivot those to target forward, that's still 184 missiles. Nothing to laugh at.

[Cadorna]

hooooolyyyy sh*****t

[Jimmy C]

Originally Posted by Wild Goose

Even discounting the 30 outer wing micromissiles from a Full Armor salvo, since you can't pivot those to target forward, that's still 184 missiles.

Not quite, you see how the missles can twist around after being fired? It doesn't matter if the missles aren't pointed forword initially.

[Wild Goose]

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

Not quite, you see how the missles can twist around after being fired? It doesn't matter if the missles aren't pointed forword initially.

True, I'd forgotten about that off-bore ability. On the other hand, the way the outer wing missiles and the main missiles are setup suggests to me that the outer wing missiles are for fighter and GERWALK modes, since if you're not careful, the leg launchers might hit you if you fire them in GERWALK. Perhaps it's also possible that the chest and shoulder launchers can fire in fighter mode like a VLS, but judging from the way Ozma used his micromissiles, probbaly the idea is to use the launchers in battroid mode for maximum salvo density, with the 30 wing micromissiles saved for dogfighting.

Also, something interesting to note: Valkyrie cockpits aren't pressurised.

[CaptGloval]

Originally Posted by Wild Goose

Also, something interesting to note: Valkyrie cockpits aren't pressurised.

So I guess their flight suits are actually space suits. Unlike the bulky ones we have now, VF pilot suits hug the skin to create pressure and enables more actions.

But if the cockpit wasn't pressurized, I wonder how Ozma survived in episode three. I assume his suit was torn because his blood was floating in the cockpit. Perhaps the suit is self-sealing?

[squaresphere]

Yeah i figure the suits would be self sealing by this point. If they weren't they'd probably lose their ability to compensate for the extra G's.

So after watching ep 11, I guess the VF-27 doesn't have built in folding tech since there's clearly a booster attached to it.

[CaptGloval]

I actually thought that the VF-27 was hitching a ride on a ship's fold back in episode seven. But that thought arrived belatedly and people have already concluded the awesomeness of the VF-27 so I let it slide.

Stealth is another factor for it to be able to sneak in, and during the fold its purple color serves as camouflage against the psychedelic background.