Fate/Zero - Spoilers & Speculation (for Light Novel and Drama CD public only)

[Klashikari]

The problem isn't the fact Archer could roam around: instead, it is the very fact he was -alive-.
Archer was critically hit by Gilgamesh GoB, which is lethal, no matter how you look at it. And Archer doesn't boats an almighty endurance, but still survived that, helped Shirou by tracing Rho Aias (which is quite mana intensive) AND assisted Rin in her rescue for Shinji. Surviving and having enough prana for all of these stunts? Quite doubtful.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Archer was critically hit by Gilgamesh GoB, which is lethal, no matter how you look at it.

Not to mention he had just been stabbed in the chest by Shirou, and was already prepared for the fact that he was about to die. Add in the GoB spam and...

[willyvereb]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

1) As mentioned by Ringil, there is absolutely no mention that NLW didn't "overkill" Dark Berserker like Caliburn did, so it could potentially add the kill count into something between 12 kills (3 by Dark Excalibur) or 20 kills (11 by Dark Excalibur).

2) There is nothing that suggest Dark Sakura didn't replenish Dark Berserker live stock (confirmed to be refillable with Prana, and Sakura is much more potent than Illya in that regard)

3) We know by fact that Sakura deliberately didn't kill all servants so she can still have control over herself (otherwise she would turn into a grail as well), so it is fairly possible that she ordered Saber Alter to use a non full powered Excalibur to just incapacitate Berserker before consumming him.

And yeah, NLW is also some random stuff pulled like Caliburn.
Which means: there is hardly even enough grounds to have an exact equation, so it is basically better to leave God Hand into the realm of plot rigged portion, the same than Archer survival in UBW etc.

I call Occam's Razor on this one. You include more additional factors than necessary to the debate.

1.)Except the fact Shirou had to absolutely land the 9th attack on Dark Berserker that he only managed to do because of Illya's intervention. So we're pretty sure there's no "overkill" involved. And 20 kills? Where did you get that number?

2.)Except the mechanics of God Hand are pretty clear. A single lethal attack can kill Berserker only once. Calibum is an exception since it apparently has an unique concept that overrules the God Hand's. 9 attacks with Nine Lives = 9 kills. Dark Berserker had 9 lives. And it does make sense given at that stage Sakura still struggled for control. Zouken mentioned that simply maintaining Saber and Berserker puts a huge strain on Sakura. So she probably didn't have any extra energy to spare to regenerate Berserker's lives.

3.)See my post above. Sakura kept Saber and Berserker as a safety measure in case she have to fight Zouken. And maintaining them did put a considerably strain on her instead of lessening it.

Conclusion: Zero Berserker has no chance against Heracles. His Knight of Honor is useless and even Ardonight would only shave off a single life from God Hand's stock before it would develop immunity.

Extra: Shouldn't we put this debate into the Visual Novel thread? We're starting to get off-topic.

[TwilightsCall]

2.)Except the mechanics of God Hand are pretty clear. A single lethal attack can kill Berserker only once. Calibum is an exception since it apparently has an unique concept that overrules the God Hand's. 9 attacks with Nine Lives = 9 kills. Dark Berserker had 9 lives. And it does make sense given at that stage Sakura still struggled for control. Zouken mentioned that simply maintaining Saber and Berserker puts a huge strain on Sakura. So she probably didn't have any extra energy to spare to regenerate Berserker's lives.

Where did you get this? I have never seen anything anywhere that made it sound like one attack could only take one life, in fact there's plenty of evidence that states that single attacks can take multiple lives.

-Caliburn obviously
-Illya mentions "I don't know if that weak excalibur could take off even two of his lives" implies that a stronger excalibur COULD
-If Nine Lives killed Dark Berserker 9 times, he would have had to die three times prior to that or else he would have survived it. And the only thing that happened to Berserker in all of Heaven's Feel prior to that that could feasibly be considered as killing him was Dark Saber using Excalibur on him.

[Touko]

Originally Posted by GDB

Pretty sure Archer didn't survive in UBW. He disappeared like any defeated Servant would, and the Grail appeared the same as it does when 5-6 Servants are defeated (with Saber, Assasin, and Gilgamesh remaining). And considering the sword spam he was attacking with, I doubt he had the mana for that as Servant Archer. Pretty sure he's supposed to be Counter Guardian Emiya by that point, who was sent because the Grail wouldn't have otherwise been stopped and the world would be in serious danger.

Incorrect.

Spoiler:

Independent Action: B
Normally if a Servant loses his Master, he will disappear within hours if he cannot replenish the mana required to remain in this world. The amount of time each Heroic Spirit has before disappearing varies, but Emiya can remain in this world for 2 days due to Rank B Independent Action. However, this is the ideal value achieved by maximally conserving mana and avoiding battle and Noble Phantasm usage.
In UBW route, Emiya’s Master switched from Rin to Medea, and after Medea’s death, he continued to operate independently and battled Emiya Shirou. Through all these events, one is able to recognise Emiya’s ability to survive alone. In addition, even if Emiya’s spiritual core sustained lethal damage, he can still survive for a short period. This ability is the reason why Emiya is able to secretly observe Shirou and gang’s battle as a spiritual body after being defeated by Shirou. In addition, after the battle between Shirou and Gilgamesh had concluded at Ryudo Temple, Emiya appeared in front of Gilgamesh as he attempted to pull Shirou into the darkness. He shot an arrow between the eyes of Gilgamesh and sent him alone into the darkness. The arrow shot at that time was a regular arrow, and from the fact that Emiya gradually began to disappear after this attack, this is probably the limit of Emiya’s materialisation.

[GDB]

Source? Because it makes absolutely zero sense all things considered. It even says 2 days while maximally conserving mana and avoiding battle. However, he goes rogue on day 14. He battles Shirou on day 15. Shirou battles Gilgamesh on day 16. That's 1.5 to 2 days right there. Add in the intense battle against Shirou, culminating in a sword through the chest, and then taking a Gate of Babylon spam (twice), and you expect us to believe he was still able to retain maximal conservation? Toss in the Rho Aias he protected Shirou with on day 16, and his sword spam on the Grail, and you still want to debate it?

[Touko]

http://completematerial.pbworks.com/...32479544/Index

There is no debate, because the fact is there. You are incorrect.

Have a read through the truck loads of supplementary materials and Kinoko Nasu interviews.

Spoiler:

Emiya
Class: Archer
Master: Tohsaka Rin
Alignment: True Neutral
Sex: Male
Height: 187cm
Weight: 78kg
Armament: Outfit

STR: D
CON: C
AGI: C
MGI: B
LCK: E
Noble Phantasm: ??


Life as a Human
This is Emiya Shirou after becoming a Heroic Spirit in the future. He stubbornly trained himself after the Holy Grail War, and pursued the dream of becoming a superhero. However, he soon fell into despair as he realised that his own power was insufficient to save mankind. Before the dying people, Emiya made a pact with the” World” and become a hero that can produce miracles, yet he died a tragic death because of the betrayal of his allies. Although he died of betrayal, he did not hate mankind. However, the “World” ironically gave him the duty as a Heroic Spirit “to slaughter all humans at a particular location when mankind is at the threshold of complete self destruction” --- a “Counter Guardian”.


Tactics
Since Emiya is a Heroic Spirit from the future, he does not have any blessings provided by fame. In addition, he does not have Noble Phantasms, as a result his basic abilities are below other Servants. However, his exceptional use of tactics and battle experience makes his combat style very distinct from other Servants. The Archer class originally focuses on long range combat, but Emiya loves melee combat and wishes to conceal his trump card, thus he focuses on melee tactics with Kansho and Bakuya when engaging other Servants.
The reason an Emiya with no Noble Phantasms is able to match other Servants or even exceed them is the Reality Marble “Unlimited Blade Works”, which includes “all the elements necessary to shape swords”. This Boundary Field can copy weapons that are seen only once, and store them within. In the Fifth Holy Grail War, the weapons stored had exceeded thousands. Emiya can freely take out and utilise the weapons according to the situation, and he can also assault the enemy by firing many Noble Phantasms from the Boundary Field like arrows in the same way as Gilgamesh’s “Gate of Babylon”.
Emiya’s trump card is firing copied Noble Phantasms as arrows – “Broken Phantasm”. On impact, the magical force will explode, generating overwhelming destructive power. By assaulting melee Servants with this type of long range attack, Emiya is able to turn the odds to his favour.


Class Abilities

Magic Resistance: D
Emiya’s Magic Resistance is weak. Its rank is D, in other words, spells more than one bar will annul this resistance. The benefit it provides is equivalent to an anti-magic amulet. This level of resistance can be easily overcome by a relatively strong magus.
Although Emiya was a magus during his life and possesses unusual Projection sorcery, his affinity with “sorcery” is much worse compared to Heroic Spirits of ancient times who saw sorceries and True Magics as commonplace. The level of Magic Resistance is a result of this.
For Emiya who possesses low Magic Resistance, it is easy to picture the kind of effects great sorceries and ritual spells can have on him. Even spells greater than two steps can be lethal to him if hit. Because of this, Emiya is at a disadvantage against Caster, who has powerful sorceries at her disposal. Depending on the situation, Emiya may even have to pay attention to the attack of Masters who are magi.


Independent Action: B
Normally if a Servant loses his Master, he will disappear within hours if he cannot replenish the mana required to remain in this world. The amount of time each Heroic Spirit has before disappearing varies, but Emiya can remain in this world for 2 days due to Rank B Independent Action. However, this is the ideal value achieved by maximally conserving mana and avoiding battle and Noble Phantasm usage.
In UBW route, Emiya’s Master switched from Rin to Medea, and after Medea’s death, he continued to operate independently and battled Emiya Shirou. Through all these events, one is able to recognise Emiya’s ability to survive alone. In addition, even if Emiya’s spiritual core sustained lethal damage, he can still survive for a short period. This ability is the reason why Emiya is able to secretly observe Shirou and gang’s battle as a spiritual body after being defeated by Shirou. In addition, after the battle between Shirou and Gilgamesh had concluded at Ryudo Temple, Emiya appeared in front of Gilgamesh as he attempted to pull Shirou into the darkness. He shot an arrow between the eyes of Gilgamesh and sent him alone into the darkness. The arrow shot at that time was a regular arrow, and from the fact that Emiya gradually began to disappear after this attack, this is probably the limit of Emiya’s materialisation.


Personal Skills

Clairvoyance: C
The visual ability that is also called “Eagle Eye”. This is a must-have ability of the Archer Class. It is also frequently used during scouting. Simply looking from a high location is sufficient to fully survey the town and search for enemies. In addition, Clairvoyance will affect the accuracy of bows. Also worth mentioning is that, as Emiya readies his bow, he will be able to precisely snipe even enemies moving at high speeds as long as they are within a 4km range.
Archer, who possesses Clairvoyance, is able to execute “ultra long-range sniping” with accuracy transcending the realm of men.


Thaumaturgy: C-
During his life time, the sorceries learned by Emiya are unremarkable. Before becoming a Heroic Spirit, even “reinforcement” was quite difficult. However, the “projection” sorcery he wields is quite special, as it is able to duplicate weapons, including all the components, to near perfection. In addition, during duplication, he can even read the wielder’s skills, which allows him to gain all kinds of Noble Phantasms and combat skills.
During his life time, Emiya used the preliminary step of projection – “structural analysis”, to find the location of an item’s fault and proceed with repair.


Eye of the Mind (True): B
A danger-avoidance ability that utilises the intelligence collected up to the current time as the basis, in order to predict the opponent’s activity and change the current situation. This is not a result of talent, but an overwhelming amount of combat experience. A weapon wielded by none other than a mortal, gained through tenacious training. Using Eye of the Mind, Emiya was able to successfully counter Cú Chulainn’s thrusts that were invisible to the eye.
Even with Rank B Eye of the Mind (True), Emiya was unable to see through Emiya Shirou’s passion-infused strike which put “ideal” on the line. (Translator’s Note: WTF?)


Noble Phantasm (Translator’s Note: It is a Noble Phantasm, yet it is not.)

Unlimited Blade Works
Rank: E~A++
Type: ???
Range: ???
Maximum Targets: ???
The “Innate Bound Field” wielded by Emiya. It is his ability as a Heroic Spirit with no Noble Phantasms. The inside of the reality marble is a world like a steel mill, filled with weapons, flames, and giant gears. The uncountable swords plunge into the ground and were preserved thus. The majority of the weapons persevered in the reality marble are Noble Phantasms of Heroic Spirits copied through projection sorcery, each possessing deadly powers. Although the majority of the weapons are swords, the Noble Phantasm that provides absolute defence against projectiles, “Rho Aias”, is also said to be copied and stored in the reality marble. Also, the ability of the replicated Noble Phantasm suffers one rank down compared to the original.
Not only can Emiya freely access the weapon stored inside Unlimited Blade Works, he can also modify the weapons to his wish like Caladabolg II. In addition, he is able to capitalise on his ability to repeatedly project: use Noble Phantasms as disposable arrows, and then unleash the magical energy stored within – the tactic called “Broken Phantasm”.

Rho Aias
The shield used by the hero of Trojan War, Aias. The Boundary Field Noble Phantasm that provides absolute defence against projectile weapons.

Kansho and Bakuya
The famous swords of Chinese legend. The Yin-Yang, Female-Male paired swords based on the Yin-Yang Doctrine. Emiya’s favourite melee weapons.

Caladbolg II
The legendary sword “Caladbolg” of the Ulster Cycle, projected and modified by Emiya. Not very useful as a sword, but rather used as an arrow for “Broken Phantasm”

Here is the entire Archer profile.

[GDB]

I'm sorry, but the Complete Material and even Nasu interviews have continuously stated things that go completely against what was shown and stated in the game. Primary material always trumps supplemental material. I've provided evidence from the game that goes along with part of what the Complete Material says, which in turn debunks the rest of what it says.

[Touko]

Lol.

Don't be mad, it's ok to be wrong on the Internet.

[GDB]

Nice way to completely ignore an argument there. And who's mad? I merely pointed out that, by using facts from the source itself, I was able to display a contradiction in your supposed "word of god". Sorry if my logic trumps your cut and paste.

[GDB]

Again, you ignore the argument and hide behind an interview that goes contrary to the work itself. You say I should do more research, yet I presented my research that goes against your gospel, and you just close your eyes and pretend it doesn't exist.

There's plenty of reasons that Nasu could be mistaken in an interview. Maybe he wasn't expecting the question, and had to try and remember what he wrote. I'm not sure when the interview was conducted, but if it was years later, who's to say he remembers every little detail? Especially when he'd been working on other things by that time.

But if you want to pretend you're so smart because you can copy/paste from a supplemental book without thinking about whether it makes sense or not, go ahead. Remember your own words, "It's okay to be wrong on the Internet."

[Thess]

CM are published books TYPE-MOON does to make their multiverse more cohesive. Nasu had to clean up a couple of mistakes he did in FSN (iirc, Avenger was implied to be in the Throne of Heroes in Heaven's Feel, but then in Hollow Ataraxia... contradicted this? CM came up to explain why he isn't, etc).

Nasu wasn't looking at the big picture when he wrote the VN, now he has to retcon some stuff to make sense in his universe.

[GDB]

See, now that's logic that one can get behind. Not sure exactly what it would've contradicted to have left it as is, but I'm sure there's probably something from F/HA or something.

We need a 10th anniversary edition of the VN with fixes to plot holes and unwarranted hax.

[Ithekro]

Wouldn't that be a George Lucas type move?

(Multiple canon levels...."fixing" problems)

[Thess]

Originally Posted by GDB

See, now that's logic that one can get behind. Not sure exactly what it would've contradicted to have left it as is, but I'm sure there's probably something from F/HA or something.

We need a 10th anniversary edition of the VN with fixes to plot holes and unwarranted hax.

Avenger:

Spoiler for cm narration:

Hatred that created nothing.
A blank area that existed so each day would move on smoothly.
A hole left open in day-to-day life, a disposal yard taking in excess emotions.

How convenient it was - a false void that couldn't ever be anything.

And that village too, disappeared in the blink of an eye.
Not from the loop of decline and growth.
The era had changed, the people had changed, and that village in the mountain valley finished its role, becoming a complete wasteland.

Everything he hated was gone.
He lost his name, lost his body, and even lost sight of his soul.
In the end, even hatred left him behind.

Yet, he was still linked here.
So many years had gone by.
The inhabitants had perished, the village was gone, and even his own body had died; but he still couldn't move away.
The engraved hatred was unchanging and immortal.
As long as the world of man continued, he will continue to exist eternally.

In this empty wasteland.
He will gaze at the end of the world forever.

Void = Avenger. He's not considered an anti hero in the throne. He's stuck as a mass of hatred oblivion forever in that place. And they said that Lancer is suffering?

Headache incoming...

@remake VN: We do. I'd love it.

Archer's profile tries to explain why he's not tracing Gae Bolg and using it. He can't (he can as a passive spear, I guess?). Affinity with close-ranged combat weapons, in particular swords.

That still doesn't explain how come a dude with sword origin can use Rho Aias. Ah well...

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Thess

Avenger:

I meant the Archer stuff, not the Avenger stuff, but that's still good reference.

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Wouldn't that be a George Lucas type move?

(Multiple canon levels...."fixing" problems)

Except he fixed stuff that wasn't broken just to release another version.

[Touko]

Originally Posted by GDB

See, now that's logic that one can get behind. Not sure exactly what it would've contradicted to have left it as is, but I'm sure there's probably something from F/HA or something.

We need a 10th anniversary edition of the VN with fixes to plot holes and unwarranted hax.

There is no logic in anything. Nasu makes the universe, you suspend your logic and disbelief, and take the ride. Try to learn as much as you can from the supplementary materials, because like 50% of the Nasuverse is painted through interviews and data books.

[Klashikari]

There is a difference in elaborating a universe with further material and retconning it.
Simply suspend your logic and disbelief is what allows bad authors in general to do silly moves with the narration and do jack with sequels and other things that go against the continuity of a given franchise (the likes of which made Mass Effect fans rage like no tomorrow).

Trusting the author is one thing, but that doesn't stop people to stay a little more critic and receptive to new material, instead of accepting everything without any afterthought.
Either way, we know that Nasu had to retcon things compared to the original VN, which leaves few questions to some "facts" being presented in some occasions.

[zRyuu]

Is there a translation for the Fate/Zero servants' status? These ones http://www.baka-tsuki.org/project/in..._Illustrations

[Ichigo-Sora]

Originally Posted by zRyuu

Is there a translation for the Fate/Zero servants' status? These ones http://www.baka-tsuki.org/project/in..._Illustrations

They were translated in the PDF compilation of the light novels.
I uploaded the images here.