[Manga] Chapter 510 Discussion

[iBeast]

This whole revelation basically means one thing....the main focus of the story is rightfully where it belongs: about Naruto and not Sasuke.

Besides making Sasuke a good guy again, I really don't see any point for him now...the manga is clearly shifting it's focus to Naruto vs. Madara to save the ninja world.

[secretzfan]

Originally Posted by iBeast

This whole revelation basically means one thing....the main focus of the story is rightfully where it belongs: about Naruto and not Sasuke.

Besides making Sasuke a good guy again, I really don't see any point for him now...the manga is clearly shifting it's focus to Naruto vs. Madara to save the ninja world.

Yea and that kinda sucks. Sauske won't be back till Naruto vs Sauske finale

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Rahan

In the spoiler, Madara states outright the cost for Izanagi is light and that was way before he mentioned the likes of Danzou and their incomplete Izanagi. I think the difference between Madara and Danzou's Izanagi is the power / scale of the jutsu, not the drawback. Madara didn't forgot to mention the drawback.

Well looks like you were right since Tobi had 2 (at least) Sharingans at his disposition. I don't see what's the real difference between Madara and Danzou's Izanagi save for the time limit though, From Madara's words he should be able to use full reality warping power but he seems just as limited as Danzou albeit his eye lasted 10 minutes

Originally Posted by james0246

Consequently, this could be a set-up for Naruto also becoming a Rikudou-Sennin* (since it seems much easier for an Uzumaki/Senjuu to become one versus an Uchiha becoming one)

Is it? We don't know how Madara managed to take away Senju's physical power nor how he bestowed Uchiha's spiritual power to Nagato.
Amusingly enough I could see Rikudou Senins popping left and right now, between Naruto eating Itachi's power and Sasuke sucking red-haired Karin dry over and over it really wouldn't surprise me. That and some silly Sasuke-Naruto fusion of course.

Originally Posted by iBeast

This whole revelation basically means one thing....the main focus of the story is rightfully where it belongs: about Naruto and not Sasuke.

I'm afraid you're seriously missing the point.

[morbosfist]

Maybe Madara's allows him to determine when his copy appears in addition to where. So he sets himself to be revives next to Konan after the explosions are done.

[Tenjo_Utena]

Originally Posted by secretzfan

Yea and that kinda sucks. Sauske won't be back till Naruto vs Sauske finale

I'm hoping that there is a third act several years later, wherein the Redeemed Sasuke and Hokage Naruto have to deal with the consequences of the circle of violence that Sasuke enacted when he was a missing-nin.

Aka Sasuke murdered some seemingly insignificant people who were the parents of someone who then devoted his life to becoming super powerful and killing Sasuke.

[Ero-Senn1n]

What i liked in this chapter is the explanation of Izanagi. It is the ultimate jutsu, and all jutsu are weaker variants of Izanagi. It's about imagining something and then creating it in the real world, all ninja are capable of that, but only to a very limited extent compared to Izanagi. Elemental jutsu create different elements like fire, water, etc., genjutsu creates different thoughts in another person's mind, summoning and teleportation creates instant transmission of someone or something, kage bunshin creates a perfect copy. Even taijutsu can be classified as such: you think to be stronger than you are, and you actually become stronger, when Gai opens the 7 gates he is strong like superman, it is his will of becoming the strongest taijutsu user becoming reality. As we know it was said that the sage of 6 paths created all ninja techniques, so we can think of all ninja techniques as much weaker variants of the original izanagi, the jutsu of creation. So in this manga jutsu are a way to project your imagination into the real world and create something you imagined. This is quite a nice explanation of how everything can happen in this manga, but the limits of the abilities of a ninja is given as genetic heritage + chakra amount + intelligence.

[ZGoten]

I have to say I really love the new concept of the six paths actually being six bloodlines, possibly scattered around the ninja world. We only have the Uchiha and Uzumaki path yet, which means there are new chances for Kishimoto to finally bring coherence into the manga. Other characters could become important again. The Hyuuga could play a major role again, and maybe Orochimaru will get back into the picture, because, as we know, he has a lot of knowledge about biological crap and maybe even some samples not even Kabuto knows of.
In my opinion, there were too many things going on in Naruto that didn't contribute to the overall story, but again, this could tie many strings together.

Let's just hope that Kishimoto will grand the gathering of the remaining paths more panel time than the bijuu hunt.

[kusanagi25]

did you guys read the [snip] translation. [snip] had alot of mistranslation this time.

it fixes the part where he says that he has two of the six paths and now it says that he is the only one that can be the second six path. then when he meets nagato he says that he was the 3rd six path.

P.S the preview for next week says the night before the war

[Mr. Johnny 5]

Originally Posted by ZGoten

I have to say I really love the new concept of the six paths actually being six bloodlines, possibly scattered around the ninja world. We only have the Uchiha and Uzumaki path yet, which means there are new chances for Kishimoto to finally bring coherence into the manga. Other characters could become important again. The Hyuuga could play a major role again, and maybe Orochimaru will get back into the picture, because, as we know, he has a lot of knowledge about biological crap and maybe even some samples not even Kabuto knows of.
In my opinion, there were too many things going on in Naruto that didn't contribute to the overall story, but again, this could tie many strings together.

Let's just hope that Kishimoto will grand the gathering of the remaining paths more panel time than the bijuu hunt.

Well... Pain used the techniques from some famous Konoha clans.

Yakamana Clan == Mind reading)
Uzumaki Clan == Sealings techniques
Uchiha Clan == Doujutsu - (Kyuubi origin?)
Hyuuga Clan == Doujutsu - (Rinnegan origin?)

And two other unknown clans who probably have something to do with the summonings/absorbtions techniques.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by ZGoten

I have to say I really love the new concept of the six paths actually being six bloodlines, possibly scattered around the ninja world. .

Well that's too bad because this comes from a mistranslation.

[ZGoten]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Well that's too bad because this comes from a mistranslation.

Well, then I guess the only good thing I can say about this chapter is that we got to see Konan do something, and somehow this one-armedness of Madara fits him.

[ordinarystory]

In a previous chapter, when Madara declares a war against the Ninja world and talk about his moon-eye plan, he mentioned that he is no longer the previous Madara who was able to fight with the first Hokage. That fight weakened Madara a lot and this statement is told by Madara himself.
Now we learned that Madara has also the powers of the first Hokage, which means that he at least doubled his powers in that fight. Thus there is a contradiction here. I don't get it.

[kk2extreme]

I love a final villian popping out of nowhere which make us all feel WTF

[ZGoten]

^We all know who's that going to be, or at least we hope?....Orochimaru?
Anyway, there is still Kabuto, and I would love to see someone else take Madara's spot, to both our and his surprise.
There's also Sasuke, but it wouldn't really be surprising if he took the crown.

[MidnightViper88]

Oh, bother...I think too many people are focusing too much on the Sharingan aspect of Izanagi...Yes, just like Danzo, Madara's Sharingan suffered from blindness after using Izanagi...So what makes Madara's iteration of Izanagi more superior as the allegedly-inferior form of Danzo's?

Well, for starters, just to stay with the Sharingan for just a moment longer, it's worth reminding that Danzo wasn't a natural Sharingan user...Madara is a full-blooded Uchiha and has more precise control over his Sharingan than Danzo does over the dozen or so that he has...Doesn't matter how good they are with it, Kakashi included, if they aren't born with the Sharingan, they're not going to out-do an Uchiha at their own game...Danzo even had to use the 10 Sharingan on his right arm plus the assist of Shisui's Sharingan to combat Sasuke, multiple uses of Izanagi and all, and still couldn't escape death or outsmart Sasuke...Granted Konan isn't exactly on Sasuke's level herself, but Danzo had 10 fallbacks while Madara only used one; Horrible use of a handicap...

As far as the other half to the difference of Izanagis, you have to backtrack and remember that in order to use Izanagi it takes one part Uchiha powers and one part Senju powers...Danzo had Hashirama's DNA injected into him, but Danzo was ultimately unable to control it as the wood element tried to absorb him whole when the transplanted DNA went berserk on his body...It's probably assumed that, given the fact that Madara has possession of Hashirama's powers, Madara probably has more control over Hashirama's powers, unlike Danzo...What witchcraft allows this, I don't know...Probably goes back to the mastery of the Sharingan once again, though it doesn't explain the how or methods Madara obtained Hashirama's powers with...

So in the end, better use of the Sharingan, better control of Hashirama's powers, equals a better form of Izanagi...Danzo hardly got anywhere near Sasuke, thus his buck would stop much further from Madara...

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

What i liked in this chapter is the explanation of Izanagi. It is the ultimate jutsu, and all jutsu are weaker variants of Izanagi. It's about imagining something and then creating it in the real world, all ninja are capable of that, but only to a very limited extent compared to Izanagi.

Now that you mention it, I think this was kind of hinted back in Naruto's training when Naruto asked about non-elemental ninjutsu, genjutsu and med nin techniques. Yamato implied those jutsu used yin and yang manipulation but they didn't have the time to go in detail about what that actually was.

So then some 200 chapters later we finally got explanation of what it is. Now that we have an explanation about yin and yang, I wonder if we'll find out why the "yang" portion of the Kyuubi's charka was sealed in Naruto. I don't think the choice was arbitrary...

Originally Posted by MidnightViper88

Madara probably has more control over Hashirama's powers, unlike Danzo...What witchcraft allows this, I don't know...Probably goes back to the mastery of the Sharingan once again, though it doesn't explain the how or methods Madara obtained Hashirama's powers with...

You know I wonder if Madara having Hashirama's power actually means he has his kekkai genkai. Could he use mokuton like Danzou and control all the bijuu? Or does it only mean he has it in the more general sense that he got Senju powers from Hashirama but not his kekkai genkai abilities.

[james0246]

^Didn't Danzou actually have Hashirama's arm and not just some genetic material?

[Sabaku Kyu]

Madara believes that Hashirama's cells were implanted into Danzou by Oro.

[MidnightViper88]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

You know I wonder if Madara having Hashirama's power actually means he has his kekkai genkai. Could he use mokuton like Danzou and control all the bijuu? Or does it only mean he has it in the more general sense that he got Senju powers from Hashirama but not his kekkai genkai abilities.

That's why I'm wondering the method for which Madara obtained Hashirama's powers in the first place...We already know direct DNA transfusion results in a functional replication of the wood element, since Mr. Hyde provided two test subjects that displayed that ability to one extent or another, with Yamoto being Kamino's finest in genetic engineering...What other way could Madara "obtain" Hashirama's powers anyway? Body-snatching, a-la Orochimaru, but with different means? Madara does have his own evil lab...

I'd figure the wood element might play significantly into it, not through the obvious means that it's notable for Hashirama's signature power, but most likely in it's main purpose to control the tailed beasts, this just being a nifty side gift to the Senju-granted ability of utilizing Izanagi, though...Maybe think of it as a prerequisite...After all, despite the thing about "Senju" seeming like a generalization, Madara has a specific affinity to Hashirama's powers instead of, say, Tobirama's powers probably for a very specific reason...

At this point, the means of power gain still interests me, but I'm safe in betting that Madara could probably use Hashirama's kekkei genkai just as well...

[Cael]

The difference between Danzou's and Madara's Izanagi seems unclear.

Madara casts Izanagi with his left eye, closing it permanently. Danzou casts it with 10 different Sharingans on his arm. And he requires Shodai's power to control all 10 sharingans.

But Madara states Danzou's jutsu is 'incomplete' referring to his inability to control Hashirama's power. Hmm, how does his lack of control over Shodai's power affect his jutsu? Well his chakras drop every time a sharingan closes, so this may be the point. Not enough control of Hashirama's power puts a strain on his chakra, causing them to plummet. After all, he did have both Uchiha and Senju Power, which Madara states are the requirements to use this technique. But he also states this is an Uchiha technique.

But how are Uchiha able to use Izanagi without the balance of Senju Power?
There must be a difference. This jutsu is closley tied to the sharingan, this much we know. But because it originates from the Rikudo, sharingan users don't have a complete jutsu. It says the Sage used this jutsu to 'create.' Uchiha it seems, can use Izanagi as a genjutsu, to make death an illusion by casting it on themselves. I believe this is the extent of Danzou's power, the same as the Uchiha. The ability to create, born from both Uchiha and Senju power, the Rikudo's power, is what makes it complete. Since Danzou can not control Shodai's power he can not use Izanagi to create. He can only use it the same way the Uchiha can use it, to make death an illusion for a brief moment. He just uses Shodai's cells to control 10 sharingans which in turn extend the length of the jutsu.

Madara claims to have control of Hashirama's power. So if he had this power since his fight at VotE, why wasn't he able to use or why didn't he use Izanagi against the Fourth? I wonder if he never gained Hashirama's power until after Danzou was defeated. If Danzou has the Shodai's face on his shoulder, then Hashirama must have returned from his fight against Madara. So even though Madara claims he fought to gain access to his abilities, doesn't mean he got those abilities then and there. So it could be that Madara was without the power of the Senju until after he had brought Danzou's body back to his lab with his collection of sharingans.

Madara also wonders to himself, after watching Danzou, that "it can't be easy to control Hashirama's powers..." If he had Hashirama's powers at that time, he wouldn't be wondering, he would know. Yet he claims to be the second Rikudo and Nagato the third. Even though he has Sharingan, not Rinnegan. And we have not seen him with rinnegan or evolved mangekyou sharingan since his battle at the VotE. Is he really the second Rikudo or does he consider himself the second because he is older and created a Rikudo? I don't think Madara is the type of person to relinquish a EMS or Rinnegan to a child. A child would know if his eyes were replaced. What we don't see is Nagato's Mother's face(actually we do, but just once). She is kept in the shadow. It's more likely that Nagato's mother is an Uzumaki. If Madara did not physically give Nagato new eyes, then the only other way is for him to be Nagato's true father. But wouldn't that also make Nagato an Uchiha? Is Nagato the result of an Uchiha father and Uzumaki mother? I've noticed that he has Madara's trade mark 'bag under the eye.' Whatever the circumstance, the man Nagato refers to as his parent, must be his adopted father, he just doesn't know it. He clearly has his mothers hair.

Either Madara is lying and he never had the Rinnegan or was considered a Rikudo, or he gained the Rinnegan/Rikudo Status briefly, and then lost it. As in, while fighting Hashirama, something happened, probably when he had control of the Kyuubi, only he lost it when the Kyuubi was wrestled from him and he was defeated. Because as we know, Naruto has shown signs of becoming the next Rikudo by gaining control of the Kyuubi.

It's also becoming more of a possibility that Zetsu has played a big role in Madara's survival. Madara has now lost his right arm twice and received damage to his left arm via the Fourth Hokage. Each time, a white goo resembling Zetsu's white half, is shown in place of blood. And now the left side of Madara's face is exposed but we see only black. Either because we are not meant to see it or because it is the black half of Zetsu's left face.

If Zetsu helped Madara survive his fight with Hashirama, after having the Kyuubi taken from him, and the Kyuubi's power was the source for him to briefly become Rikudo, and the Third Rikudo (Nagato) is really Madara's son, then the only question that remains is...

Who's in the Box?

If it can't be Madara, then it must be the Fourth. The fourth having already stopped him, coupled with the dark chakra of the Kyuubi, could be enough to scare him. It's believed that Orochimaru tried to summon the fourth, Kabuto being Orochimaru's apprentice would know where the DNA came from, would know about summoning the fourth hokage. Then what's the secret Kabuto refers to? Well, he's saying he knows who was behind the attack on Konoha and he knows the fourth hokage stopped him.