Sword Art Online - Episode 19 Discussion / Poll

[Zeriand]

If he actually is sure that Asuna was trapped in ALO. Which he doesn't. This is probably the fifth time I've said this already. Also, do point out what he should 'cut to the chase' so I can refute them one by one. Also give some exact examples of him 'waltzing around', so I can do the same.

The subplot that barges in is real life. One day you're walking to school and you get bitten by a dog. Random enough, real life. And again, no relevant sub plot is just 45 MINUTES AWAY to solve, not 45 days, and is an important matter to a friend, which you do not seem to able to comprehend.

[SilverSyko]

Originally Posted by Znail

I have to wonder what makes you think that your oppinion is something else then just your oppinion? There is an easy counter argument to your oppinion and that is someones else oppionion: No SAO is not mediocre. Now try and prove me wrong.

This doesn't include my opinion either. I liked this episode and a couple others as well. Unfortunately despite that the show still has flaws that drag it down.

If you want an actual reason for it's mediocrity, then to quote myself from elsewhere:

Japanese animation has proved it's a medium that can produce some really groundbreaking things. Something that is objectively "mediocre", is something that doesn't really make new ground or impress anyone, but isn't at a point where it really can be called bad either and can still manage to entertain people.

"Bad" would be if the show fails to entertain the majority of people on top of being flawed. From what I've seen around here and including myself, this isn't true.

[Znail]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Sense of urgency doesn't mean that he was to be emo or go reckless whatsoever.
What is lacking there is a sense of direction and objective that is absolutely nowhere: you don't see him cutting the chase of some things, there is also a dominant tendency for him to get curious about the game instead of focalising on his primary objective.

Again, we know that Kazuto isn't a casual player, and can appreciate most games (he even did that during SAO arc to some extent). That said, the series also has shown a dramatic shift in his interest which converge into the presence of Asuna in his life. And instead of having focus on that, he just waltz around.

Like I already mentioned before, I don't expect him to act like a mop and cry over Asuna, that would be more out of character than anything else. Suffice to say, him being playful and enjoying himself with little to no attempt to go ASAP to the world tree is what bothers me, even more so when a subplot barges in that has no relevancy to his main purpose at all.


Kazuto in SAO didn't realize that there was already a time limit, until Asuna reminded him that, which dramatically changed his perspection of dealing with SAO death game. After realizing that, Kazuto was obviously not willing to waste any time in SAO any longer.

Ah, but it's a totally relevant subplot. The main problem is that we aren't hearing Kirito's thoughts so it's less obvious then it would be else. But quite frankly everything Kirito is doing is pretty much related to either getting closer to the world tree, finding out what he needs to do or aquiring those things. It's just that his calm behaviour makes it seem like he dioesn't care what is going on while he very much knows what he is doing or at least trying to do.

Remember what we know so far about reaching the world tree. A fairly large well equiped force is needed to attempt the quest. This info he got from Leefa and the salamander dude he captured. Thus going to meet two race leaders and possibly saving them and thus gaining some allies is hardly something unrelated to his goals. And as he pointed out to Leefa, he still have to go mostly that way anyway to get out of the town. Wouldn't it be stupid to get to the world tree quest without any chance of doing it anyway?

[GundamZZ]

I think it's perfect time for Kirito. He can be the hero. He can save elf high kings from a sinister plot. He can end the war as encouraged by the game. Then, he can use him position to gather more intelligence about ALO.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Zeriand

If he actually is sure that Asuna was trapped in ALO. Which he doesn't. This is probably the fifth time I've said this already.

Objectively, he has no solid proof.
Subjectively, he is damn sure she is because:
1) the very moment Asuna is still in coma, there is another girl with an uncanny resembleance to her in another game
2) that game is by RCT progress
3) Sugou mentioned he "maintain her alive" (directly linked with the flashback the moment he noticed RCT on the cover, and his expression afterwards)

It doesn't take a genius to have a specific lead about that, and even a guy like Agil is asking him to -rescue- her, not to "wake her up".
Also, he states once to Yui that he will definitely make her reunite with Asuna, which means deep down, he is sure he will find her, instead of stating he isn't sure about that.

All efforts he has taken converge to the obvious point that he has a gut feeling telling him she is there, supplemented by hints and circumstancial evidence (mainly Sugou's behaviour and lines).
He has no time to waste, yet does this errand either way, so it is more than just a mere "uncertainty".

Also, do point out what he should 'cut to the chase' so I can refute them one by one. Also give some exact examples of him 'waltzing around', so I can do the same.

-Problem between Sigurd and Leefa, which they could actually ignore
-The scene with both of them contemplating the sky
-Actually really at his leisure during Leefa's first rotate logout
-Walking pace in the cave
-His antics regarding his transformation
-Taking part of the faction war

Generally speaking, all actions are well within his personality, which is again not the problem here. His general behaviour in there is, because he is really giving the impression that he is indulging himself in the game, instead to press on. You can argue that it could potentially turn off Leefa, which would be detrimental for him to go alone with little knowledge of the game. But as he already saw, Leefa is an understanding girl, so it wouldn't be a stretch for her to accept to rush in there (especially after that scene in the inn).
Simply speaking, I have a problem how he deals with these above: not what he is actually doing these, but actually doing at this pace.

Feel free to consider these parts "not enough" for you, but my point still stand there with points and perspective leaving me disatisfied. And since I'm not the only one thinking this way, I guess I'm not imagining things (and likewise other people aren't bothered by that).

The subplot that barges in is real life. One day you're walking to school and you get bitten by a dog. Random enough, real life. And again, no relevant sub plot is just 45 MINUTES AWAY to solve, not 45 days, and is an important matter to a friend, which you do not seem to able to comprehend.

It isn't real life at all: it is a subplot involving a faction issue in a MMORPG. I can see the importance of it as a former MMO player, but as it stands, it isn't the end of the world if it goes south. Furthermore, should ALO Kirito dies, he will have to go back to square one, as implied by Leefa: you don't respawn where you got killed which would waste many hours they needed to reach the neutral mining town.
This also doesn't mean the conflict can be solved within 45 minutes.

On the other hand, a much more important and pressing matter is at stake.

Of course, he can potentially have the back up of the alliance, but as pointed by Leefa previously, an alliance would not work well if it is the world tree, because it would lead to a huge conflict regarding the permanent flight ability, reserved to a single race, which is a problem since not only you have 2 factions, but Kirito is a spriggan, so it is a third one in the equation.
And that's also assuming he can make such request towards their leader. In the end, I wouldn't be surprised if he manages to have Sakuya's agreement for reinforcements for the last dungeon (or whathever the guardians are), but from a practical perspective, such support is hard to expect granted.

[xellos2099]

Think of it realistically... even with his crazy stat, he can't beat the 12 people on the bridge with normal equipment without healing. Can he truly expected himself to beat a raid that would require many members with ancient weapon? Getting to world tree and die is not his goal. He can believe that Asuna is in the game all he want, but there is no prove. If he has, he would have ask Agni for help too.

He is being calculating, he will need more help and having fun is just icing. Going help the alliance would give him his best chance of success.

[Klashikari]

That's exactly the point: Kazuto wasn't shown calculating at all so far. Even Leefa stated he is basically suicidal to take on the tree by himself.
However, if anything goes, he's neither doing any of 2 options at his disposal: rushing alone, nor assembling an army, the former saving the most time with the risk of dying, the latter being much slower but increasing his chance to succeed.

He wasn't shown doing any of the two so far, and he basically was shown taking part of the alliance war in order to repay Leefa's assistance, not in an attempt to have a raid party at his order. I would have understand should he ask Leefa if he could get some help from her faction, but he of course didn't because of what she said previously (so a faction helping him would be difficult, as their interest would be in conflict: he needs the flight ability to reach the peak of the world tree, which is an ability every faction is looking for), so recruiting a faction to his aid isn't a prepared plan.
Actually, the "most plausible" faction to help him would be the spriggan.

Just to drive my point in a simple sentence: what Kazuto did as ALO Kirito isn't OOC at all, and expected with him, under normal circumstance, but at the same time, the current circumstances would lead him taking extreme measures, so at least giving a rush/going all out, instead of indulging himself in the game.
In fact, if he was as serious as in some parts of the SAO arc (instead of the threat of real death, it would be the importance of the rescue), and some attempt to make haste, that would have been enough.

[Znail]

Originally Posted by SilverSyko

This doesn't include my opinion either. I liked this episode and a couple others as well. Unfortunately despite that the show still has flaws that drag it down.

If you want an actual reason for it's mediocrity, then to quote myself from elsewhere:

Quote:
Japanese animation has proved it's a medium that can produce some really groundbreaking things. Something that is objectively "mediocre", is something that doesn't really make new ground or impress anyone, but isn't at a point where it really can be called bad either and can still manage to entertain people.

"Bad" would be if the show fails to entertain the majority of people on top of being flawed. From what I've seen around here and including myself, this isn't true.

Not a bad argument, but there are some problems with it. The issue with breaking new gound is that everything has already been done, so it's only a matter if you can spot the similarities. Breaking new ground is also mostly something that matters more to people writing reviews then actual viewers as even a carbon copy of another show means most people wont have seen the original one anyway and wont be bothered. But SAO does break the standard mold in quite a few areas.

Setting - VRMMO aren't an unique setting, but still fairly rare one that have only been used by a small number (1?) of series before the novel was written.

Not following the generic hero buildup of most shounen action series.

Main couple getting together almost at the start of the story, not unique, but very unusual.

But in the end so do I find the uniqueness requirement of many long term anime fans a bit strange as that quite litterally means that most anime are mediocre as I can't think of many series more unique then SAO. Are the rest just worthless?

To me so is the most important aspect of a series if it's entertaining. Now a series who are too generic that there is litterally nothing new in it wont be entertaining. But SAO is pretty far from that and many complaints of the series actually involves the phrase "not what I expected".

[Klashikari]

I must remind you that this thread serve as a place for reactions, opinions, reviews, etc regarding Episode 19 (and possibly events connected to it from previous episodes).
General opinions should go to the general thread right now. Also, I think it would be more pertinent to either bring this line of discussion in private or directly on the said blog.

[Dengar]

To be fair the last page is a bit of a case of tl;dr. But let me just say this.

Re: That one article

As much as I love this series and its awesomeness, the writer did not sound like a troll at any point. All of his arguments were pretty well based. You may not agree, but he never made stuff up.

Re: Missing the sense of urgency

I can kind of understand missing the "feeling" of urgency. But I would like to point out that I have yet to see a scene where Kirito does any actual side tracking as far as his goal is concerned.

[Kaijo]

Sword Art Online isn't going to win any awards, but I don't feel it is mediocre in any way. It has a few issues here and there, but it is still a decent anime, which I feel has gotten a bit better with this latest arc. Whether someone feels it is mediocre or not, would simply be a matter of opinion. And we all know the value of one person's blogged opinion... which is the same worth as anyone else's opinion on the internet.

As for as this arc and Kazuto hurrying or not, I feel he is going as fast as he can. There is a big difference between charging ahead recklessly, and taking some amount of time to understand the world and the mechanics. To figuring out the best way to go about getting up the world tree and rescuing Asuna. To that end, I understand this latest episode, as he is smart enough to realize that he will need help getting up the tree, and this sidetrack rescue operation might help him on that end.

Also, I'm reminded of one poignant phrase: "For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?"

[DXMichael]

Since the end of the actual SAO game and Kirito waking up in a hospital bed, this anime has slowly been going downhill for me. This episode however has brought back my interest and enjoyment, I missed seeing Kirito's eyes suddenly look crazy as he prepared to battle, and turning into the beast was even better

I'm hoping they manage to keep it where it is, otherwise it will just keep going downhill for me

[Newfan]

Originally Posted by xellos2099

Think of it realistically... even with his crazy stat, he can't beat the 12 people on the bridge with normal equipment without healing. Can he truly expected himself to beat a raid that would require many members with ancient weapon? Getting to world tree and die is not his goal. He can believe that Asuna is in the game all he want, but there is no prove. If he has, he would have ask Agni for help too.

He is being calculating, he will need more help and having fun is just icing. Going help the alliance would give him his best chance of success.

I've got the same train of thought. This -what seems like a huge distraction- may turn out some powerful allies for Kirito. I also have a feeling that the Salamander he spared and traded with will come to his aid later on as well. They were like bff's after the fight and make up session.

This show is picking up some, this episode was quite enjoyable after the first 1 or 2 after he logged out of SAO.

[Bahamut]

...perhaps if Kirito had monologues saying how all these "side quests" could link to his final goal and his attitude was more of a two-faced personality like those typical closed eyed scheming anime characters...then the urgency of saving Asuna will still be present...

...because with the way they are presenting it...yes chances are these "side quests" will be important...but we do need to know that Kirito is thinking of Asuna 80% of the time...i mean of course he is...but you got to show it in some form...or else some viewers end up thinking he doesnt care...

...biggest issue i got is that they are making Kirito still look like the "the white knight" rather than "the knight in shining armour"...
...yes...Kirito is a nice guy but you can show us that he has a hidden agenda...well...a mission to be exact...

...in a sense SAO arc is like the "nice guy" becomes "hero"...while this arc should be the "hero" proving he is one...

...or im completely wrong...

...actually...another problem is that this arc is in Leafa's perspective as well...so whatever time available for Kirito's point of view is even less...they really should have made Kirito look like those tough characters with a hidden past archtype but also with his chill attitude...just so at times he will leak out his intentions like their scene in the pub...

[Znail]

Originally Posted by Bahamut

...perhaps if Kirito had monologues saying how all these "side quests" could link to his final goal and his attitude was more of a two-faced personality like those typical closed eyed scheming anime characters...then the urgency of saving Asuna will still be present...

...because with the way they are presenting it...yes chances are these "side quests" will be important...but we do need to know that Kirito is thinking of Asuna 80% of the time...i mean of course he is...but you got to show it in some form...or else some viewers end up thinking he doesnt care...

...biggest issue i got is that they are making Kirito still look like the "the white knight" rather than "the knight in shining armour"...
...yes...Kirito is a nice guy but you can show us that he has a hidden agenda...well...a mission to be exact...

...in a sense SAO arc is like the "nice guy" becomes "hero"...while this arc should be the "hero" proving he is one...

...or im completely wrong...

One thing is that the last episodes have been seen from Suguha's perspective. And she doesn't know what Kirito is thinking and thus it doesn't make sense for us to hear his thoughts. So we get to see how it feels for Suguha to be dragged around by Kirito, with little explanation about what he plans to be doing. It does give us a bit of a diffrent perspective on Kirito after all

[Bahamut]

...duly noted...
...i was about to expand upon that as well...

[Zeriand]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Objectively, he has no solid proof.
Subjectively, he is damn sure she is because:
1) the very moment Asuna is still in coma, there is another girl with an uncanny resembleance to her in another game
2) that game is by RCT progress
3) Sugou mentioned he "maintain her alive" (directly linked with the flashback the moment he noticed RCT on the cover, and his expression afterwards)

Sugou is literally maintaining her life since she's one of the researchers taking medical care of Asuna. Yes, the connection is hinted. Yes, it's a possibility. But no. Hard. Evidence. Else he would've punched the shit out of Sugou already right there and then.

It doesn't take a genius to have a specific lead about that, and even a guy like Agil is asking him to -rescue- her, not to "wake her up".

Girlfriend coma sleep. If sleep too long dies. Kirito must save girl before that. Exactly what part of the situation that doesn't indicate that he's 'rescuing' her through waking her up from her death sleep?

Also, he states once to Yui that he will definitely make her reunite with Asuna, which means deep down, he is sure he will find her, instead of stating he isn't sure about that.

You know that Asuna STILL can meet Yui suppose that she's not in ALO, as long as she wakes up from her death slumber right?

He has no time to waste, yet does this errand either way, so it is more than just a mere "uncertainty".
-Problem between Sigurd and Leefa, which they could actually ignore
-The scene with both of them contemplating the sky
-Actually really at his leisure during Leefa's first rotate logout
-Walking pace in the cave
-His antics regarding his transformation
-Taking part of the faction war

He rushed a distance that is impossible for most people on their journey to the World Tree. And you're talking about him wasting time.

- Pray tell what problem, because as far as I can remember the only direct confrontation against Sigurd is when Sigurd tries to stop Leafa from leaving with Kirito. And Kirito only defended her, which was something any good friend would've done. And if you're talking about faction war, then TALK ABOUT FACTION WAR, not split them into two.

- Leafa is his guide. He has to wait until she's ready. In between that time he can do whatever he wants.

- I'm pretty sure you've spent your entire life running towards your destination without slowing down to walk even once.

- He's a battle mania. And his 'antics' regarding his crazy cool transformation has absolutely nothing to do with the urgency to save Asuna.

- 45 minutes. 45 minutes. 45 bloody minutes to check out a friend's matter, and if possible help out. He could always go away if the matter looks like it might take a very long time. 45. Minutes.

Generally speaking, all actions are well within his personality, which is again not the problem here. His general behaviour in there is, because he is really giving the impression that he is indulging himself in the game, instead to press on. You can argue that it could potentially turn off Leefa, which would be detrimental for him to go alone with little knowledge of the game. But as he already saw, Leefa is an understanding girl, so it wouldn't be a stretch for her to accept to rush in there (especially after that scene in the inn).

He is indulging himself in the game. Why wouldn't he? Why shouldn't he? Is there any reason he shouldn't at least enjoy himself? He has always been the type to enjoy the world as much as he can within limits, even with his own life at stake. He TAUGHT that to the stiff Asuna and changed her. Why did you expect him NOT to enjoy himself?

This also doesn't mean the conflict can be solved within 45 minutes.

This doesn't mean he can't leave after confronting the conflict.

On the other hand, a much more important and pressing matter is at stake.

Yeah, at stake in another 5 days, while a good friend's matter is within 45 minutes. I seriously don't understand why you're not understanding.

Of course, he can potentially have the back up of the alliance, but as pointed by Leefa previously, an alliance would not work well if it is the world tree, because it would lead to a huge conflict regarding the permanent flight ability, reserved to a single race, which is a problem since not only you have 2 factions, but Kirito is a spriggan, so it is a third one in the equation.
And that's also assuming he can make such request towards their leader. In the end, I wouldn't be surprised if he manages to have Sakuya's agreement for reinforcements for the last dungeon (or whathever the guardians are), but from a practical perspective, such support is hard to expect granted.

Irrelevant to what I'm trying to point out so I won't comment on this.

[Clarste]

I wouldn't say it's that unusual. Like half the series is told form the perspective of girls looking at Kirito from the outside. Silica, Lisbeth, Asuna (in Yui's arc)... those stories were all narrated by the girl. Kirito plays the role of the "stranger" quite often.

[eiyuu99]

Without his internal monlogue, Kirito can be going
Said words,"Let me help you."
Thoughts,"must hurry Asuna Asuna get allies how to reach world tree must hurry Asuna Asuna get allies..."

or others prefer Kirito becoming a berserked PKK, like one main characeter from a game after a girl he likes became comatose?

[orpheus2]

Originally Posted by eiyuu99

Without his internal monlogue, Kirito can be going
Said words,"Let me help you."
Thoughts,"must hurry Asuna Asuna get allies how to reach world tree must hurry Asuna Asuna get allies..."

or others prefer Kirito becoming a berserked PKK, like one main characeter from a game after a girl he likes became comatose?

Yeah, I can see having Kirito monologue give more clarity. But then again, they have limited time to insert those monologues.

At least, that PKK has a lot of Character Development thereby making a lot more likeable. Let's stop the comparison here.