[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by goldenlove27

Thank You and if you could sum up the last thing Ange was talking about with Featherine that would help too. Sorry if I'm asking for too much.

After they finished the story Ange realized that Battler is not coming back and everyone died on that day. Featherine dismissed her as her miku and they returned to the real world.

Juuza had already left before Ange and was on the phone with Okonogi. Hachijou thanked her for reading the story and Ange left Hachijou’s home. Before Ange left she asked Hachijou if she was actually the character in her story known as ‘Featherine’. Hachijou dodged the question and then Ange left. Ange didn’t overhear any of Juuza’s conversation with Okonogi and they left for Niijima.

[Midnight Bliss]

I'm a slow person, so i'm very sorry 8D but um, I interpret the tip as basically telling us that Shkanon is basically a red herring that's keeping us from the truth? Like, there's many things along the way that seem convincing, but in the end, we keep backtracking ourselves and we're always coming to "Shkanon" as the answer, when it's really a trap.
...
;-; yeah, so I wanted to know if i'm the only slow one and such, haha. if not, please explain to me if it's alright. D:

[Used Can]

Unless EP6 was one massive troll, and I doubt it, then I'd say no.
Honestly, I think people should wait until EP6's patch is out, read the episode, and then arrive to their own conclusions, but not before.

[goldenlove27]

Originally Posted by Ssol

After they finished the story Ange realized that Battler is not coming back and everyone died on that day. Featherine dismissed her as her miku and they returned to the real world.

Juuza had already left before Ange and was on the phone with Okonogi. Hachijou thanked her for reading the story and Ange left Hachijou’s home. Before Ange left she asked Hachijou if she was actually the character in her story known as ‘Featherine’. Hachijou dodged the question and then Ange left. Ange didn’t overhear any of Juuza’s conversation with Okonogi and they left for Niijima.

Thank you again. You really helped me out with this. Now I can think freely on how Ange and Juuza will contribute to EP 7 without much worry...

[theacefrehley]

Originally Posted by Ssol

Regrading the game that occured in the past that Bern and Lambda have talked about, there was another TIP recently released that might give a clue.

Thanks to crystalweaver on LJ for the translation:
Whose tea party?

AUAUrora?


Now hanyuu is definietly back

[chronotrig]

Spoiler for chrono:

Okay, Battler-centric theory. Like Sayo's motive, the details of this are hard to pin down, but this seems like the most likely version to me.

Please forget about the messy details in EP3 and the answer arcs for the time being. I'll get there later, but they make things confusing if you try to process them too soon.

Also, forget about why the message bottles exist for the time being. They'll come back later on, but they aren't actually needed to create the games. As in the Author Theory, Sayo is taking an enormous risk in the hopes of gaining a great reward, but this time, the risk is not in convincing millions of people to believe something they never saw, but of convincing a single, highly skeptical person to believe that magic has occurred all around him and furthermore, to make him believe in and long for the Golden Land as the only way to solve this tragedy. In a way, convincing Battler might be harder than tricking the entire world.

Two people are needed to create a world of magic, a storyteller and a listener. The listener must want to believe the storyteller's tale, and the storyteller must believe that the listener will listen. Unless one side decides to speak up, neither can know that the other is ready. So Beatrice, being the impulsive and rash character Battler likes, decides to trust in Battler and believe that he will listen eventually. Of course, she's a practical person and knows that Battler won't surrender so easily, and she will do everything she possibly can to convince him. Still, she believes that if she truly gives it her all, Battler will eventually come around in the end. That's why she's willing to take the risk of killing all these people even though there's no guarantee Battler will believe.

So, the true goal Beatrice has is making it so that Battler wants to believe in magic, and that's a tough one. She starts out by dropping occult hints and impossible-looking puzzles rather than directly telling him "I am using magic so believe it". The series of murders is long and drawn out, and though it follows the epitaph, she usually doesn't say "I am following the epitaph in a ceremony". She lets Battler figure that out for himself, since discovering a "secret" for yourself always makes it easier to believe it.

She kills more and more members of his family and friends, which means it gets harder and harder for Battler to accept reality. On top of that, Battler can't accept that anyone on this island would have done something as evil as these murders. This factor is probably the strongest one in causing him to surrender.

However, Beatrice leaves Battler a way out. If only he will decide to believe in the witch, she will not only answer all of his questions about the mysteries and magic, but she will make the Golden Land a reality and everyone will be revived. That way, none of his friends will be dead, and none of them will have to have been a murderer. Considering the fact that he's trapped on a cold, rainy island and just survived a dozen grisly murders, it hardly surprising that he'd search for a way out, any way out. And yes, since the Golden Land is described as a kind of heaven, suicide is probably part of Beatrice's plan.

Spoiler for chrono:

This plan is most evident in EP2, but it's taking place in all of the question arcs. In fact, the stories we see are basically Battler's viewpoint after Beatrice tells him the story. I think this is what Featherinne meant by "reading aloud". Battler's own viewpoint and assumptions are fitted into Beatrice's story, and she bases her story around what it is that Battler has seen.

However, there are a few scenes which Meta-Beatrice seems to create directly for Meta-Battler's benefit. Any time that the meta-characters (the ones that exist in or know about multiple worlds) say something that reaches outside the individual game, it's no longer part of the original story. And in fact, though the message bottles are said to tell the full story of EP1 and EP2, we never hear anyone mention that they refer to other games or even the battle between Meta-Beatrice and Meta-Battler. Since EP2 refers back to EP1, I think someone would have mentioned this if the meta-scenes were included. (In other words, I think Featherinne guessed wrong about the content of these stories.)

We can think of these scenes like the Hideyoshi witness from EP3 or the trial from EP5, actual magical illusions drawn on top of the original tape. Any time these illusions interact with the magic world or the game board world, you can always find a different explanation for them. So, the magic world and game board world are part of Sayo's story, whereas the true meta-world is part of Meta-Beatrice's story. We can see this three tiered structure clearly in EP5, where Natsuhi's Beatrice exists in the magic-world, exists inside Natsuhi's head in the game board world, and has a few lines added/scenes tweaked to make her actions match up with the meta-world. As is made fairly clear here, this Beatrice is mainly a construct created by Lambda, though she is related to the Meta-Beatrice we know.

Spoiler for chrono:

I think that this theory is Battler's foldy cheese, whereas Featherinne is a block of cheese. In other words, the Author theory does solve all of the problems, but it doesn't give an actual reason for all of the scenes. With the Battler-centric theory, Sayo does have some freedom when lying to Battler, and Meta-Beatrice can insert the meta-world into the story in some places, but there still might be a reason for every single thing we see.

So, where do these stories come from? In EP1, Beatrice didn't have time to tell Battler the full story, so he just saw her at the end. He did hear scattered rumors of golden butterflies, so they show up from time to time. Scenes that he didn't actually witness are merely his speculation or hearsay he got from one of the other survivors. This includes the final scene between Eva and Hideyoshi, which is significant since that room was a cat box.

In EP2, Beatrice did have time to convince Battler of everything, so the magic and backstory scenes we see are part of the story she told him. In fact, the magic scenes in this game all seem to follow what was going on in Sayo's head very closely. The Kanon and Shannon personalities wouldn't want this plan to be carried out. Both the characters she imagined and the part of Sayo's heart that they reflected realized that love can't be obtained this easily. However, Sayo's desire to save all of her friends with magic eventually won out, and the Beatrice in her story takes control of the island. The fight scenes represent the "deaths" of those personalities, which occur every time Sayo is forced to kill the person that furniture loves. These scenes are as violent as the inner conflict inside Sayo, so we can see that she was not as certain about this as she wanted to be.

Looked at this way, I think every magic scene in EP2 can be said to have a direct explanation. The only tricky one is the final closed room, but the symbolism here seems pretty plain to me. When in the chapel, George and Gohda see "Beatrice" floating right behind Shannon, and gold butterflies chase them all the way to Natsuhi's room. Replace this with Shannon switching to the Beatrice personality and marching them back to Natsuhi's room at gunpoint, and you have an almost direct parallel.

In EP4, Kinzo's secret was about to be discovered, and Sayo could not allow that illusion to be revealed to Battler, so she had to take drastic action and lock away most of the cast. The easiest way to explain this EP is if she held the entire cast hostage and forced them to go along with her story or else watch their kids get murdered. Battler learned most of the magic story details from Kyrie, who was having to endure bullets being shot right past her head (or something loud and nearby) over and over again. However, since Battler spent that EP in a nice, warm room, only saw a couple corpses before the end, and got the majority of the story from outright hearsay, Beatrice thought that there was no chance of convincing him that magic exists. She gave him that test, hoping that he would at least remember Sayo, but it looks like Battler had other things in mind at the time. Finally, she gives up on the Beatrice personality she created for Battler and returns to the original one she that she made for Kinzo. I won't try to go into detail here, but it's pretty clear that she commits suicide shortly after this, probably because she's just murdered everyone for no reason. Rosa is long dead, so she "helps Maria escape" as well.

To tie all this in with the beginning, Battler was unable to serve his purpose as the listener.

Spoiler for chrono:

A few easter eggs that this theory offers.
Battler's over nine thousand moment isn't just a joke. Battler, especially Meta-Battler after a few games, is so convinced that magic can never be real that he possesses a certain ability in Sayo's world. Any time Battler is in a room, it is nearly impossible to ever argue that magic was also in it since Battler will deny it no matter what. He will testify that anything he witnesses was caused by logical means, no matter how impossible it is for him to guess those logical means.

Battler was just an inch away from exposing the truth and preventing all the murders in EP1. Unfortunately, Jessica had to spoil his fun at the last second and is therefore responsible for the entire tragedy. Sort of.

Edit:

Spoiler for chrono:

When going through the motives Sayo had for helping everyone, I forgot to add the siblings. She may not feel a deep love for any of them, but she does get along with most of them and knows that they are all in desperate financial difficulty. The gold of the Golden Land would solve their problems as well (though they wouldn't even need it in the Golden Land, since all wishes are granted there apparently). That means Sayo's Golden Land will solve a crisis for every single person on the island. Oh, and Gohda won't need to do random servant tasks and can make food all the time, which seems to be all he cares about.

[ijriims]

Originally Posted by Ssol

Juuza had already left before Ange and was on the phone with Okonogi. Hachijou thanked her for reading the story and Ange left Hachijou’s home. Before Ange left she asked Hachijou if she was actually the character in her story known as ‘Featherine’. Hachijou dodged the question and then Ange left. Ange didn’t overhear any of Juuza’s conversation with Okonogi and they left for Niijima.

I am actually more concerned about what Okonogi said about "world peace" when he and Juuza were talking about Ange.

---------------------------------------

For the trap told in the new EXTRA TIPS, which has been adopted back even though the readers had dismissed earlier as trap after reading EP6?

Ryu07 (Featherine) is disappointed by people falling into such an obvious trap.

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Looked at this way, I think every magic scene in EP2 can be said to have a direct explanation. The only tricky one is the final closed room, but the symbolism here seems pretty plain to me. When in the chapel, George and Gohda see "Beatrice" floating right behind Shannon, and gold butterflies chase them all the way to Natsuhi's room. Replace this with Shannon switching to the Beatrice personality and marching them back to Natsuhi's room at gunpoint, and you have an almost direct parallel.

Hmm... how sure are you that she would point the gun at George? It seems as though everything we have been shown so far would make it impossible for her to do something like that to George.

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Battler was just an inch away from exposing the truth and preventing all the murders in EP1. Unfortunately, Jessica had to spoil his fun at the last second and is therefore responsible for the entire tragedy. Sort of.

I was going to say that you are about to be lynched by all the Jessica fans but you got the "Sort of." at the end as a way out of it.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Ssol

Hmm... how sure are you that she would point the gun at George? It seems as though everything we have been shown so far would make it impossible for her to do something like that to George.

Spoiler for chrono:

Remember that she's willing to kill George in at least 2 episodes. She is conflicted of course, as the Shannon VS Beatrice battle illustrates (Shannon put up a much stronger fight than even Kanon did), but she must perform the entire ceremony if she wants the "magic" to work. In EP2, she was in a position where she had no choice but to select Shannon, Gohda, and George as the 4th, 5th, and 6th twilights. She would rather give George a scare and be able to laugh it off when they all revive than fail in the ceremony and have Jessica's death on her conscience, as well as several others. The Beatrice personality has won out at this point, which proves that her set of motives are the ones that Sayo most strongly feels. "Beatrice" believes that the ends literally justify the means, as in they rewrite what the means actually were.

Keep in mind that she expects everything to be good and happy in the end.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by ijriims

For the trap told in the new EXTRA TIPS, which has been adopted back even though the readers had dismissed earlier as trap after reading EP6?

Ryu07 (Featherine) is disappointed by people falling into such an obvious trap.

This made me realize something. Folks are suddenly supporting Shkanon because of EP6, but isn't that backwards? Because EP6 was written by Tohya, which means she already believed in Shkanon before she started writing it. She designed the episode to illustrate her theory. The meta-narrative set up a situation where the story was read to Featherine as if she didn't know it yet, but that's just Tohya's trick to lead the reader to her conclusion, right?

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

This made me realize something. Folks are suddenly supporting Shkanon because of EP6, but isn't that backwards? Because EP6 was written by Tohya, which means she already believed in Shkanon before she started writing it. She designed the episode to illustrate her theory. The meta-narrative set up a situation where the story was read to Featherine as if she didn't know it yet, but that's just Tohya's trick to lead the reader to her conclusion, right?

I don't think Tohya wrote anything. In my theory, Tohya is just Featherinne's guess at the correct answer. As I've suggested, it's impossible to prove Featherinne's theory wrong, but I think Tohya herself is the trick, not anything she wrote.
As Ange asks, "which of you is the real one, Tohya or Featherinne"? In other words, is Featherinne just a part of Tohya's story, or is Tohya part of Featherinne's theory on the games? Since Featherinne is called "the Witch of Theatergoing" and seems like she's going to be a major actor in EP7, I find the latter explanation more satisfying.

But again, impossible to prove either way.

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

I don't think Tohya wrote anything. In my theory, Tohya is just Featherinne's guess at the correct answer. As I've suggested, it's impossible to prove Featherinne's theory wrong, but I think Tohya herself is the trick, not anything she wrote.
As Ange asks, "which of you is the real one, Tohya or Featherinne"? In other words, is Featherinne just a part of Tohya's story, or is Tohya part of Featherinne's theory on the games? Since Featherinne is called "the Witch of Theatergoing" and seems like she's going to be a major actor in EP7, I find the latter explanation more satisfying.

But again, impossible to prove either way.

Assuming Hachijou is part of Featherine's theory, what about the conversation between Okonogi and Juuza? Neither Ange nor Hachijou/Featherine observed it.

In my opinion, since this event occurred without any kind of meta observation it was a real world event. Like you said, there really isn't any way to prove it either way.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Ssol

Assuming Hachijou is part of Featherine's theory, what about the conversation between Okonogi and Juuza? Neither Ange nor Hachijou/Featherine observed it.

Actually, that's the reason I first thought this was her theory. Whether that part was right or wrong, plenty of fans have guessed that the "stakes" killing Kasumi's troops were actually Juuza sniping. And plenty of people have guessed that Juuza might kill Ange afterwards, since the endscroll says she dies less than 3 months after jumping off the skyscraper. We know that Ryuukishi likes putting fan theories into the game, and that's exactly what this feels like.

This wouldn't necessarily mean that Featherinne's guess was wrong, just that it was her guess.

In my opinion, since this event occurred without any kind of meta observation it was a real world event. Like you said, there really isn't any way to prove it either way.

It happened without any meta observation, but it also happened with zero concrete context. How in the world are we supposed to be seeing this scene, or any of the Ange/Hachijo scenes? To me, the most simple explanation is that Featherinne is the real one and Hachijo is the illusion.

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

We know that Ryuukishi likes putting fan theories into the game, and that's exactly what this feels like.

Quoted for truth.

Originally Posted by chronotrig

It happened without any meta observation, but it also happened with zero concrete context. How in the world are we supposed to be seeing this scene, or any of the Ange/Hachijo scenes? To me, the most simple explanation is that Featherinne is the real one and Hachijo is the illusion.

Assuming the real world is in 1998 there are no problems.

I think it would be a very interesting ending to have the final episode take place in 1998 with Ange, Juuza, Okonogi, new 1998 characters, etc. Mabye it'll even take place on Rokkenjima.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Ssol

Assuming the real world is in 1998 there are no problems.

I think it would be a very interesting ending to have the final episode take place in 1998 with Ange, Juuza, Okonogi, new 1998 characters, etc. Mabye it'll even take place on Rokkenjima.

Well, my point here is that every scene in the game so far has had some way of reaching the meta-characters. For example, all of the Ange scenes were witnessed by Meta-Battler as Ange was dying.

Of course, if Featherinne's theory is right, then the ending you suggest is very likely to occur at some point. And of course, it is possible that these scenes are completely real.

[Kylon99]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Well, my point here is that every scene in the game so far has had some way of reaching the meta-characters. For example, all of the Ange scenes were witnessed by Meta-Battler as Ange was dying.

Of course, if Featherinne's theory is right, then the ending you suggest is very likely to occur at some point. And of course, it is possible that these scenes are completely real.

There's one other option other than Amakusa shooting Ange at the end. And that's Ange runs off with Amakusa, abandoning her name and living in disguise. In that way she could be declared 'dead.' I'm sure there's a bunch of 'ship' related people out there that would be happy with that possibility.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Kylon99

There's one other option other than Amakusa shooting Ange at the end. And that's Ange runs off with Amakusa, abandoning her name and living in disguise. In that way she could be declared 'dead.' I'm sure there's a bunch of 'ship' related people out there that would be happy with that possibility.

Especially if/Unless Amakusa is Battler

[Renall]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Spoiler for chrono:

Okay, Battler-centric theory. Like Sayo's motive, the details of this are hard to pin down, but this seems like the most likely version to me.

Please forget about the messy details in EP3 and the answer arcs for the time being. I'll get there later, but they make things confusing if you try to process them too soon.

Also, forget about why the message bottles exist for the time being. They'll come back later on, but they aren't actually needed to create the games. As in the Author Theory, Sayo is taking an enormous risk in the hopes of gaining a great reward, but this time, the risk is not in convincing millions of people to believe something they never saw, but of convincing a single, highly skeptical person to believe that magic has occurred all around him and furthermore, to make him believe in and long for the Golden Land as the only way to solve this tragedy. In a way, convincing Battler might be harder than tricking the entire world.

Two people are needed to create a world of magic, a storyteller and a listener. The listener must want to believe the storyteller's tale, and the storyteller must believe that the listener will listen. Unless one side decides to speak up, neither can know that the other is ready. So Beatrice, being the impulsive and rash character Battler likes, decides to trust in Battler and believe that he will listen eventually. Of course, she's a practical person and knows that Battler won't surrender so easily, and she will do everything she possibly can to convince him. Still, she believes that if she truly gives it her all, Battler will eventually come around in the end. That's why she's willing to take the risk of killing all these people even though there's no guarantee Battler will believe.

So, the true goal Beatrice has is making it so that Battler wants to believe in magic, and that's a tough one. She starts out by dropping occult hints and impossible-looking puzzles rather than directly telling him "I am using magic so believe it". The series of murders is long and drawn out, and though it follows the epitaph, she usually doesn't say "I am following the epitaph in a ceremony". She lets Battler figure that out for himself, since discovering a "secret" for yourself always makes it easier to believe it.

She kills more and more members of his family and friends, which means it gets harder and harder for Battler to accept reality. On top of that, Battler can't accept that anyone on this island would have done something as evil as these murders. This factor is probably the strongest one in causing him to surrender.

However, Beatrice leaves Battler a way out. If only he will decide to believe in the witch, she will not only answer all of his questions about the mysteries and magic, but she will make the Golden Land a reality and everyone will be revived. That way, none of his friends will be dead, and none of them will have to have been a murderer. Considering the fact that he's trapped on a cold, rainy island and just survived a dozen grisly murders, it hardly surprising that he'd search for a way out, any way out. And yes, since the Golden Land is described as a kind of heaven, suicide is probably part of Beatrice's plan.

There is no evidence whatsoever that Piece-Battler accepting magic was Meta-Beatrice's goal at any point. And Meta-Battler is the only one who provably understands the entire "accept the witch" thing, the nature of magic, or the Golden Land itself. Other than Maria, Piece-Battler has no one on the board to tell him anything about the witches or magic, so he is never actually going to accept the witch (in ep2 it is not provable what, if anything, he actually does). The multiple episodes are clearly for someone's benefit, but that someone isn't Piece-Battler, because he doesn't and can't remember them.

On the board, how exactly did this elaborate plan go into place when they didn't even know when or if Battler would ever come back to the conference to begin with? If it's so important he knows, go out and convince him wherever he is.

Sorry, not buying it. You're intentionally conflating information the two Battlers don't both know. And no, I'm not going to ignore the "messy details" even temporarily, because they're important and they make this not make sense. One may as well say "Okay, ignore for a minute the red denying Battler as culprit, let's investigate the evidence that he is the culprit." Sure, we could do that, but it's pointless.

Spoiler for chrono:

This plan is most evident in EP2, but it's taking place in all of the question arcs. In fact, the stories we see are basically Battler's viewpoint after Beatrice tells him the story. I think this is what Featherinne meant by "reading aloud". Battler's own viewpoint and assumptions are fitted into Beatrice's story, and she bases her story around what it is that Battler has seen.

However, there are a few scenes which Meta-Beatrice seems to create directly for Meta-Battler's benefit. Any time that the meta-characters (the ones that exist in or know about multiple worlds) say something that reaches outside the individual game, it's no longer part of the original story. And in fact, though the message bottles are said to tell the full story of EP1 and EP2, we never hear anyone mention that they refer to other games or even the battle between Meta-Beatrice and Meta-Battler. Since EP2 refers back to EP1, I think someone would have mentioned this if the meta-scenes were included. (In other words, I think Featherinne guessed wrong about the content of these stories.)

We can think of these scenes like the Hideyoshi witness from EP3 or the trial from EP5, actual magical illusions drawn on top of the original tape. Any time these illusions interact with the magic world or the game board world, you can always find a different explanation for them. So, the magic world and game board world are part of Sayo's story, whereas the true meta-world is part of Meta-Beatrice's story. We can see this three tiered structure clearly in EP5, where Natsuhi's Beatrice exists in the magic-world, exists inside Natsuhi's head in the game board world, and has a few lines added/scenes tweaked to make her actions match up with the meta-world. As is made fairly clear here, this Beatrice is mainly a construct created by Lambda, though she is related to the Meta-Beatrice we know.

I'm not even sure that I understand where you're going with this. How do you know which meta-levels are abstracted, which exist within the allegedly-written stories, and which don't, when no one has told us the content of those stories? Ange seems to recognize that Alliance, End, and Dawn exist, but are they the exact same stories or not? Is Ange/Featherinne part of Dawn? One would think not, but did Ange-3 even actually read any such thing, or is that even further abstracted?

From a non-Author Theory perspective, what is the explanation for the lack of a meta-narrative in ep1?

Spoiler for chrono:

I think that this theory is Battler's foldy cheese, whereas Featherinne is a block of cheese. In other words, the Author theory does solve all of the problems, but it doesn't give an actual reason for all of the scenes. With the Battler-centric theory, Sayo does have some freedom when lying to Battler, and Meta-Beatrice can insert the meta-world into the story in some places, but there still might be a reason for every single thing we see.

So, where do these stories come from? In EP1, Beatrice didn't have time to tell Battler the full story, so he just saw her at the end. He did hear scattered rumors of golden butterflies, so they show up from time to time. Scenes that he didn't actually witness are merely his speculation or hearsay he got from one of the other survivors. This includes the final scene between Eva and Hideyoshi, which is significant since that room was a cat box.

In EP2, Beatrice did have time to convince Battler of everything, so the magic and backstory scenes we see are part of the story she told him. In fact, the magic scenes in this game all seem to follow what was going on in Sayo's head very closely. The Kanon and Shannon personalities wouldn't want this plan to be carried out. Both the characters she imagined and the part of Sayo's heart that they reflected realized that love can't be obtained this easily. However, Sayo's desire to save all of her friends with magic eventually won out, and the Beatrice in her story takes control of the island. The fight scenes represent the "deaths" of those personalities, which occur every time Sayo is forced to kill the person that furniture loves. These scenes are as violent as the inner conflict inside Sayo, so we can see that she was not as certain about this as she wanted to be.

Looked at this way, I think every magic scene in EP2 can be said to have a direct explanation. The only tricky one is the final closed room, but the symbolism here seems pretty plain to me. When in the chapel, George and Gohda see "Beatrice" floating right behind Shannon, and gold butterflies chase them all the way to Natsuhi's room. Replace this with Shannon switching to the Beatrice personality and marching them back to Natsuhi's room at gunpoint, and you have an almost direct parallel.

In EP4, Kinzo's secret was about to be discovered, and Sayo could not allow that illusion to be revealed to Battler, so she had to take drastic action and lock away most of the cast. The easiest way to explain this EP is if she held the entire cast hostage and forced them to go along with her story or else watch their kids get murdered. Battler learned most of the magic story details from Kyrie, who was having to endure bullets being shot right past her head (or something loud and nearby) over and over again. However, since Battler spent that EP in a nice, warm room, only saw a couple corpses before the end, and got the majority of the story from outright hearsay, Beatrice thought that there was no chance of convincing him that magic exists. She gave him that test, hoping that he would at least remember Sayo, but it looks like Battler had other things in mind at the time. Finally, she gives up on the Beatrice personality she created for Battler and returns to the original one she that she made for Kinzo. I won't try to go into detail here, but it's pretty clear that she commits suicide shortly after this, probably because she's just murdered everyone for no reason. Rosa is long dead, so she "helps Maria escape" as well.

To tie all this in with the beginning, Battler was unable to serve his purpose as the listener.

This is just ridiculous. Where is the proof of any of this, or even any evidence whatsoever? When did Shannon get a gun in ep2 and why didn't they know she had it? How does a delusional nutcase hold a dozen people hostage by herself? Why is her ep4 death in the place that it is, and why is Nanjo dead so close to her? Questions aren't being answered, they're just being reshuffled. Good answers make things easier to understand, not harder.

Spoiler for chrono:

A few easter eggs that this theory offers.
Battler's over nine thousand moment isn't just a joke. Battler, especially Meta-Battler after a few games, is so convinced that magic can never be real that he possesses a certain ability in Sayo's world. Any time Battler is in a room, it is nearly impossible to ever argue that magic was also in it since Battler will deny it no matter what. He will testify that anything he witnesses was caused by logical means, no matter how impossible it is for him to guess those logical means.

Well, obviously, as that's Battler's personality.

Spoiler:

Battler was just an inch away from exposing the truth and preventing all the murders in EP1. Unfortunately, Jessica had to spoil his fun at the last second and is therefore responsible for the entire tragedy. Sort of.

How would Battler understanding his role in things actually prevent the murders? In fact, if the culprit's mindset and resolution is as you described, the murders must go on anyway because not everyone's happiness has yet been achieved.

Edit:

Spoiler for chrono:

When going through the motives Sayo had for helping everyone, I forgot to add the siblings. She may not feel a deep love for any of them, but she does get along with most of them and knows that they are all in desperate financial difficulty. The gold of the Golden Land would solve their problems as well (though they wouldn't even need it in the Golden Land, since all wishes are granted there apparently). That means Sayo's Golden Land will solve a crisis for every single person on the island. Oh, and Gohda won't need to do random servant tasks and can make food all the time, which seems to be all he cares about.

That's frightfully evil. Does she not know that the gold actually exists, or does she? If not I could sort of see it in a delusional "the gold will be granted through magic" sense, but if she has actual knowledge that the gold is real, why can't she just give it to them? The theory has yet to impose an adequate moral necessity for the chosen culprit to engage in the murders. If the culprit is a sociopath or schemer, the murders could be necessitated by someone with a sick mind or ends-justify-means attitude. But if the culprit is pitiable or innocent, their morality just doesn't work in this fashion.

Honestly, the theory is only going downhill from where it was. It's not answering anything to my satisfaction, and where it does, it just poses new questions that are ridiculously implausible to even posit because they make no sense of the behavior of the individual characters. I can't help but think you're off track.

Originally Posted by Kylon99

There's one other option other than Amakusa shooting Ange at the end. And that's Ange runs off with Amakusa, abandoning her name and living in disguise. In that way she could be declared 'dead.' I'm sure there's a bunch of 'ship' related people out there that would be happy with that possibility.

I wanted to go over this some other time in greater detail, but here's my problem with Amakusa-is-Battler:

What a gigantic dick.

Seriously. Okay, assume it's true. Battler survives and becomes Amakusa. Ange lives twelve years with her entire family dead other than Eva whose relationship breaks down out of suspicions that could have been dispelled by Battler if he were truly alive. Ange's life is nearly hell for her and the one person she wished would most have come home not only did survive, but didn't come home to her. Forget Battler's sin toward Beatrice, that's just unforgivable.

Oh, and it gets better. Ep3 may not be the "true" predecessor to 1998 anyway, so how do we even know that Eva and Battler had any conflict at all? We don't. For all we know, Eva thought Battler was dead too. I'm certain that she would have welcomed him if he were alive (if she didn't think he was the killer), given that she apparently at least tried to be nice to Ange.

And worse yet, Amakusa is close to Ange yet never manages to reveal anything to her, but goes gallavanting around the world risking his life before giving her even a tiny hint of his true identity.

Seriously, that's a dumb thing to be doing without an incredibly good reason. Who is he afraid of? If it's Eva, he has every opportunity to tell Ange once they're on the run. If it's Kasumi, what's stopping him from doing it while Eva is alive and able to protect him and Ange from the Sumaderas?

It just doesn't add up any other way than Amakusa being a total cheeseball. Of course if he's not Battler, then there wasn't anything to say.

[Kylon99]

Originally Posted by Renall

It just doesn't add up any other way than Amakusa being a total cheeseball. Of course if he's not Battler, then there wasn't anything to say.

I don't think it's plausible he's the Battler we know. He could be the *other* Battler we don't know but without a proper back history, I don't see what that changes.

Because ultimately we have a small but consistent characterization of him already. This is meta-gaming again, but I don't think an author would suddenly U-turn a character's character without proper foreshadowing since it would jeopardize his name... 8)


By the way regarding Hachijou and the Author Theory, it isn't without precedent that something this crazy has happened before. At first I was thinking about Stephen King's Misery and IT, where essentially his main characters are novelists. But then I remembered reading the wiki page on Dark Tower about how Stephen King is a character in his own novel and the characters realize they needed to save him in order to keep their own universe alive.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Chronotrig

Spoiler for chrono:

I think that this theory is Battler's foldy cheese, whereas Featherinne is a block of cheese. In other words, the Author theory does solve all of the problems, but it doesn't give an actual reason for all of the scenes. With the Battler-centric theory, Sayo does have some freedom when lying to Battler, and Meta-Beatrice can insert the meta-world into the story in some places, but there still might be a reason for every single thing we see.

So, where do these stories come from? In EP1, Beatrice didn't have time to tell Battler the full story, so he just saw her at the end. He did hear scattered rumors of golden butterflies, so they show up from time to time. Scenes that he didn't actually witness are merely his speculation or hearsay he got from one of the other survivors. This includes the final scene between Eva and Hideyoshi, which is significant since that room was a cat box.

In EP2, Beatrice did have time to convince Battler of everything, so the magic and backstory scenes we see are part of the story she told him. In fact, the magic scenes in this game all seem to follow what was going on in Sayo's head very closely. The Kanon and Shannon personalities wouldn't want this plan to be carried out. Both the characters she imagined and the part of Sayo's heart that they reflected realized that love can't be obtained this easily. However, Sayo's desire to save all of her friends with magic eventually won out, and the Beatrice in her story takes control of the island. The fight scenes represent the "deaths" of those personalities, which occur every time Sayo is forced to kill the person that furniture loves. These scenes are as violent as the inner conflict inside Sayo, so we can see that she was not as certain about this as she wanted to be.

Looked at this way, I think every magic scene in EP2 can be said to have a direct explanation. The only tricky one is the final closed room, but the symbolism here seems pretty plain to me. When in the chapel, George and Gohda see "Beatrice" floating right behind Shannon, and gold butterflies chase them all the way to Natsuhi's room. Replace this with Shannon switching to the Beatrice personality and marching them back to Natsuhi's room at gunpoint, and you have an almost direct parallel.

In EP4, Kinzo's secret was about to be discovered, and Sayo could not allow that illusion to be revealed to Battler, so she had to take drastic action and lock away most of the cast. The easiest way to explain this EP is if she held the entire cast hostage and forced them to go along with her story or else watch their kids get murdered. Battler learned most of the magic story details from Kyrie, who was having to endure bullets being shot right past her head (or something loud and nearby) over and over again. However, since Battler spent that EP in a nice, warm room, only saw a couple corpses before the end, and got the majority of the story from outright hearsay, Beatrice thought that there was no chance of convincing him that magic exists. She gave him that test, hoping that he would at least remember Sayo, but it looks like Battler had other things in mind at the time. Finally, she gives up on the Beatrice personality she created for Battler and returns to the original one she that she made for Kinzo. I won't try to go into detail here, but it's pretty clear that she commits suicide shortly after this, probably because she's just murdered everyone for no reason. Rosa is long dead, so she "helps Maria escape" as well.

To tie all this in with the beginning, Battler was unable to serve his purpose as the listener.

This just leaves too many questions for me.

Ep2: What do the Butterflies represent to Rosa? What do the Goats represent? What was with Maria loading a gun when she's never had training? Who killed Kumasawa and Nanjo? Who left them outside? If we beleive episode 5 and think those deaths were faked and that they were killed somewhere else later. The only people you have available is George's group and Genji said they had been gone for about 2 to 3 hours so they had plenty of time to kill people. It literally is George's group too because if you believe that scene he lead the whole situation.

Also why were the red marks on the door? Couldn't Kumasawa and Nanjo do it?

Ep4: Why beleive anyone was locked up in a prison at all? There is no proof that a prison exists in the Kuwadorian. Just that everyone in that group died. If you beleive it's a prison then why is Shannon the jailer? Why can't it be Kyrie or Krauss or even Nanjo? Besides the prisoners the jailer could be anybody in that episode. You also have to explain: why isn't Shannon locked up when the rest are? Why try to convince Battler of magic through the phones rather than closed rooms? Episode 4 had virtually no closed room murders. Why convince him Kinzo is the murderer? In episode 4 for a majority of the episode Battler thought Kinzo was behind the whole thing and then everybody told him Demons and witches did it. Why the sudden change?

Originally Posted by Renall

I wanted to go over this some other time in greater detail, but here's my problem with Amakusa-is-Battler:

What a gigantic dick.

The idea came from Shirou being Archer in the future in fate/staynight. So I agree he really is a giant dick if this is true. It's more likely from his Hair color that he's a sumadera and that Ryukishi's going for a "he's actually Kasumi or Kyrie's son twist". Since the Sumaderas hate her and all...

Or maybe he's Jessica I dunno... Battler gets shot dead, but who knows if Jessica survived or not?