Mahouka LN - Master Clan Conference Arc (Volumes 17, 18, & 19) Discussion / Poll

[bakato]

Originally Posted by Jiminy

Even though Mayumi doesn't admit it she fell in love with someone from whom she was supposed to keep her distance. This guy belongs to a rivalling family, a bunch of psychopaths and killers. He lied to her about his identity and might even have used her for his own benefit. To top it all off this guy is already engaged to someone else.

Mayumi feeling sad and torn and Mari worrying about her friend. hmm yeah I'd say that's pretty much what I expected them to feel.

Quit exaggerating. Technically, he never lied because she never askedand if we're gonna talk about who used who then Mayumi's way more guilty.

[tigerdave]

Originally Posted by Jiminy

Even though Mayumi doesn't admit it she fell in love with someone from whom she was supposed to keep her distance. This guy belongs to a rivalling family, a bunch of psychopaths and killers. He lied to her about his identity and might even have used her for his own benefit. To top it all off this guy is already engaged to someone else.

Mayumi feeling sad and torn and Mari worrying about her friend. hmm yeah I'd say that's pretty much what I expected them to feel.

I was responding to the other poster who said that Mari looked annoyed on the cover. I think you're going a little too far with your conclusions. Tatsuya never lied about who he was, nor did she ever ask him if he was from the 10MC. Seriously, did Mayumi ever ask him about his family or his childhood? We know she wondered about whether he was an Extra, but she never asked him about it, so how was she deceived? Of course, if she did ask those things Tatsuya would have lied to her out of necessity. But she never asked personal questions beyond siscon-related quips.

As for Tatsuya using Mayumi, to me it looks like they've had a mutually beneficial relationship. And the engagement was just announced, it wasn't some hidden secret. Maybe Mayumi suspects that they've been engaged for some time, but there is no proof.

[Echizen777]

Kinda amusing that most of you are only taking in account the Tatsuya-Mayumi relationship, he didn't lie to her about is family but some lies were mixed in it and seriously, saying that it's because she never asked is a lame excuse. He didn't only lie to her, he lied to many other persons but most, not all of his lies were necessary as he was ordered to hide his identity.

[tigerdave]

Originally Posted by Echizen777

Kinda amusing that most of you are only taking in account the Tatsuya-Mayumi relationship, he didn't lie to her about is family but some lies were mixed in it and seriously, saying that it's because she never asked is a lame excuse. He didn't only lie to her, he lied to many other persons but most, not all of his lies were necessary as he was ordered to hide his identity.

When did he lie about his family or past? When Katsuto asked him if he was a member of the 10MC, Tatsuya correctly said no. Sure, even if he was recognized as a legit Yotsuba at the time, he would have lied to Katsuto. But Tatsuya was a guardian and not a full fledged member, at least that's how I see it. I can't think of any other instances where Tatsuya or Miyuki were even asked about their past. Maybe Lina did, but that's a completely different circumstance. If you can think of an instance, let me know. The only other instance is probably his conversation with Erika in volume 11, and in that scene Tatsuya did reveal he's a Yotsuba (but neglected to say he was only a guardian). Tatsuya just evaded the question with Shizuka's mom, so you're right about that one.

Honestly, it's pretty odd that (as far as I can remember) nobody from First High except Katsuto and Erika has outright asked them about their family. After all of the exploits of Tatsuya and Miyuki, no one has even brought it up with them? With their power and the emphasis Japan's magical community seems to place on clan names, you'd think someone would have investigated or at least brought it up. Maybe it's because 'Shiba' is not a famous magician family name so people just let it go. But still, you'd think someone would have asked.

Tatsuya has misled people about many things. For instance, he let Mikihiko believe pursuing Zhou was JSDF business and not a Yotsuba mission. Nobody at First High knows Tatsuya's real strength, whether it be combat or magic. They have some idea of his combat prowess, but didn't know that he's a trained killer. Obviously, they have no clue about his magical excellence.

To get back on topic, it will be interesting to see if people at First High figure out that Tatsuya's no defective magician. They probably know that some Yotsubas have a few innate abilities, rather than a general excellence with all magics (Miyuki being the exception). I'm sure they'll all have figured out that Tatsuya has been trained to kill, based on his name and what they've seen him do.

[Iramohs]

Kinda amusing that most of you are only taking in account the Tatsuya-Mayumi relationship, he didn't lie to her about is family but some lies were mixed in it and seriously, saying that it's because she never asked is a lame excuse. He didn't only lie to her, he lied to many other persons but most, not all of his lies were necessary as he was ordered to hide his identity.

I'm assuming his friends will understand the necessity of the lie once they see how the First High students start distancing themselves from Tatsuya and Miyuki. If they came to high school as Yotsuba Tatsuya and Yotsuba Miyuki I doubt they'd even have friends.

[Echizen777]

Originally Posted by tigerdave

When did he lie about his family or past? When Katsuto asked him if he was a member of the 10MC, Tatsuya correctly said no. Sure, even if he was recognized as a legit Yotsuba at the time, he would have lied to Katsuto. But Tatsuya was a guardian and not a full fledged member, at least that's how I see it. I can't think of any other instances where Tatsuya or Miyuki were even asked about their past. Maybe Lina did, but that's a completely different circumstance. If you can think of an instance, let me know. The only other instance is probably his conversation with Erika in volume 11, and in that scene Tatsuya did reveal he's a Yotsuba (but neglected to say he was only a guardian). Tatsuya just evaded the question with Shizuka's mom, so you're right about that one.

He lied to Katsuto, it doesn't matter what he thinks about his position of his family, the fact remains that he as Yotsuba blood and is affiliated to them, it was even said in volume 13 or 14, whether he is lying or trying to mislead people it makes no difference, the whole Shiba family coming from a normal family is a cover. He said to Masaki that he had no relation to the Yotsuba attackers, also try to protect the Kuroba's identity to Mikihiko with some weird analogy, he asked a lot of things to certain persons knowing very well that they were aware that he wasn't revealing everything, Mayumi did ask about his family one times but he just talked about his dad and his stepmother. Lie, deception, using another reason to obtains what he wants, he did all of this, and sometimes it was necessary, sometimes he was just abusing of the others, reading some posts it's as if Tatsuya was an innocent boy or something.

[Jiminy]

1) this guy lies the whole day long if he deems it necessary without any regret at all
2) he technically didn't lie ... he was a guardian and not a Yotsuba - true, but that doesn't matter at all since Mayumi doesn't know about that. She might perceive it as a lie nonetheless. Emotions like sadness, feeling betrayed etc. are triggered by what she believes to be true and not by the truth.
3) I assume the bigger problem and true reason for the emotions she seems to have on the cover is the family Tatsuya belongs to and his engagement.

[tigerdave]

Originally Posted by Echizen777

He lied to Katsuto, it doesn't matter what he thinks about his position of his family, the fact remains that he as Yotsuba blood and is affiliated to them, it was even said in volume 13 or 14, whether he is lying or trying to mislead people it makes no difference, the whole Shiba family coming from a normal family is a cover. He said to Masaki that he had no relation to the Yotsuba attackers, also try to protect the Kuroba's identity to Mikihiko with some weird analogy, he asked a lot of things to certain persons knowing very well that they were aware that he wasn't revealing everything, Mayumi did ask about his family one times but he just talked about his dad and his stepmother. Lie, deception, using another reason to obtains what he wants, he did all of this, and sometimes it was necessary, sometimes he was just abusing of the others, reading some posts it's as if Tatsuya was an innocent boy or something.

I don't think anyone who's read the series would claim Tatsuya is an innocent boy or do-gooder by nature. But I also don't see Tatsuya as a villain. He simply does what he has to do to get the desired results. I think he's mostly a good person, even if he's ruthless and unapologetic. Or at least he does more good things than bad things, and usually does things for morally good reasons. I think most of the people he interacts with regularly see him in the same light. He's certainly no angel, though.

[MRD143]

Tatsuya never tells an outright lie, he shades every deception with a bit of truth. Miyuki has even said he is devious.

[expertsource]

suddenly, an idea flashed in my head. tatsuya vs masaki is vague but, what if we go on it over gouki, after miyuki rejects masaki, gouki presses more and wants to show off that his son, the heir of ichijou clan, stronger than tatsuya and deserves miyuki more than him, also he thinks their honour as ichijou will be repaired which was damaged in the 9SC. he presses to tatsuya to vs against masaki, and he thinks in the 10mc which has less restriction(high possibly) rules, masaki can win against tatsuya.

all speculation...

[Echizen777]

Originally Posted by tigerdave

I don't think anyone who's read the series would claim Tatsuya is an innocent boy or do-gooder by nature. But I also don't see Tatsuya as a villain. He simply does what he has to do to get the desired results. I think he's mostly a good person, even if he's ruthless and unapologetic. Or at least he does more good things than bad things, and usually does things for morally good reasons. I think most of the people he interacts with regularly see him in the same light. He's certainly no angel, though.

I don't see Tatsuya as a villain, but as said MRD below me he is devious and most of what he did to hide his identity is reasonable.

[Kadia]

As much as i want to defend Tat as a fan, i have to admit that he did lie on many occasions. But that lies did not incur any losses to Kasuto or Mayumi so what's the deal? He is absolutely not a villain he just act with his/his sister best interest in mind.

About facing off b/n Tat and the prick(don't blame me i just hate him), your scenario is interesting but i think Gouki's hidden agenda asking for the marriage is more than meet the eyes. It should be something more than trying to undermine Yotsuba's power and strengthening his own family's blood line.

Is it as simple as father doting on his son?

p.s. Sadly, nobody want to join my previous guessing...sob...

[Iramohs]

Originally Posted by Kadia

As much as i want to defend Tat as a fan, i have to admit that he did lie on many occasions. But that lies did not incur any losses to Kasuto or Mayumi so what's the deal? He is absolutely not a villain he just act with his/his sister best interest in mind.

About facing off b/n Tat and the prick(don't blame me i just hate him), your scenario is interesting but i think Gouki's hidden agenda asking for the marriage is more than meet the eyes. It should be something more than trying to undermine Yotsuba's power and strengthening his own family's blood line.

Is it as simple as father doting on his son?

p.s. Sadly, nobody want to join my previous guessing...sob...

I feel as if Gouki found out what happened to Colonel Sakai so he filed that complaint about the Yotsuba. He and Sakai had a falling out cause Sakai wanted to launch a counter invasion of the New Soviet Union. But after Yokohama he may have started to sympathize with the Anti-GAA party.

[fsck]

I don't think Mayumi would be too surprised as she connects their ridiculous magic aptitude with the knowledge that they're somehow related to the fourth magic lab, the conclusion isn't too far off.

More randomly, will Minami still need to pretend to be their cousin, and if not, how will people treat her if she's, even remotely, related to the Yotsuba.

[somerand]

Originally Posted by MRD143

Tatsuya never tells an outright lie, he shades every deception with a bit of truth. Miyuki has even said he is devious.

"“The arrest of Zhou Gongjin has been mobilized in secret by certain magician group”
“Apart from the the military police, is it?”

“Yes. It is not a formal operation”
Masaki perfectly understood that he was suggesting of an illegal operation.
“Soon they will be entering the gates of the base”
“From the gate?.... I see so they are using outer systematic magic?”
Tatsuya nodded in Masaki’s question.
Masaki guessed the identity of the ‘magicians who were mobilized in secret’.
Magician specialized in outer systematic magic, magician that might go against the JSDF. Masaki only had 1 idea of where that though was heading to.
“Shiba, you are…”
“I’m different from them”
Before the question formed, Tatsuya denied him flatly."



That's virtually flat out lying to Masaki in volume 15. He was operating as a Yotsuba guardian, on a Yotsuba family assignment, with Yotsuba family blood flowing through his veins yet he flat out denied involvement with them........




In volume 13:

"Besides, Tatsuya was also a person of the Yotsuba. Even though his relatives did not acknowledge him as a member of the Yotsuba, looking objectively, Tatsuya was unmistakably a warrior of the Yotsuba. Kazama was essentially part of the brass of the 101st brigade which had the potential to be an antagonistic influence against the Ten Master Clans, so it would be natural for him to conceal things from someone who, as a subordinate of the Yotsuba, was under the command of the Ten Master Clans. "

Tatsuya clearly acknowledges here that objectively he is part of the Yotsuba family. Yet in volume 3 he denied being a member because subjectively he didn't feel like one/ isn't treated like an actual family member. But objectively speaking he is part of the Yotsuba family, undeniably.

[millie10468]

Honestly, I don't really understand the purpose of establishing that Tatsuya is a liar. It's not like he particularly cares about how the people he has "lied" to feel. It wasn't his duty to tell them the truth after all nor is he obligated in anyway to treat them like he trusts them. They are merely acquaintances. Even if they feel hurt or angry, it's pretty obvious he wouldn't give a shit. How they feel is their business, not his and I don't see why he would be bothered.

He's certainly not a villain or a bad person for keeping things close to his chest and not blabbing his secret to any and everyone. If people are hurt because they believed he'd never lie to them, that's their fault for having unrealistic expectations. After all, he never swore to be BFFsFFE with anyone.

[MRD143]

Originally Posted by somerand

"“The arrest of Zhou Gongjin has been mobilized in secret by certain magician group”
“Apart from the the military police, is it?”

“Yes. It is not a formal operation”
Masaki perfectly understood that he was suggesting of an illegal operation.
“Soon they will be entering the gates of the base”
“From the gate?.... I see so they are using outer systematic magic?”
Tatsuya nodded in Masaki’s question.
Masaki guessed the identity of the ‘magicians who were mobilized in secret’.
Magician specialized in outer systematic magic, magician that might go against the JSDF. Masaki only had 1 idea of where that though was heading to.
“Shiba, you are…”
“I’m different from them”
Before the question formed, Tatsuya denied him flatly."



That's virtually flat out lying to Masaki in volume 15. He was operating as a Yotsuba guardian, on a Yotsuba family assignment, with Yotsuba family blood flowing through his veins yet he flat out denied involvement with them........




In volume 13:

"Besides, Tatsuya was also a person of the Yotsuba. Even though his relatives did not acknowledge him as a member of the Yotsuba, looking objectively, Tatsuya was unmistakably a warrior of the Yotsuba. Kazama was essentially part of the brass of the 101st brigade which had the potential to be an antagonistic influence against the Ten Master Clans, so it would be natural for him to conceal things from someone who, as a subordinate of the Yotsuba, was under the command of the Ten Master Clans. "

Tatsuya clearly acknowledges here that objectively he is part of the Yotsuba family. Yet in volume 3 he denied being a member because subjectively he didn't feel like one/ isn't treated like an actual family member. But objectively speaking he is part of the Yotsuba family, undeniably.

"I am different from them" is not a lie because at the time he was a Guardian which to the Yotsuba is a totally different thing. For your follow up post yet again he is a Guardian and not a member of Yotsuba until he is acknowledged by Maya, so as my post said earlier Tatsuya never outright lies he shades deception with some truth. Now if anyone had asked if he takes orders from the Yotsuba and he denied that he did that would be a lie.

[Echizen777]

Originally Posted by millie10468

Honestly, I don't really understand the purpose of establishing that Tatsuya is a liar. It's not like he particularly cares about how the people he has "lied" to feel. It wasn't his duty to tell them the truth after all nor is he obligated in anyway to treat them like he trusts them. They are merely acquaintances. Even if they feel hurt or angry, it's pretty obvious he wouldn't give a shit. How they feel is their business, not his and I don't see why he would be bothered.

He's certainly not a villain or a bad person for keeping things close to his chest and not blabbing his secret to any and everyone. If people are hurt because they believed he'd never lie to them, that's their fault for having unrealistic expectations. After all, he never swore to be BFFsFFE with anyone.

It's about acknowledging that he is a liar, not sugarcoating things as if he was a pure boy. and it certainly doesn't mean he is a villain. He is a liar, lured and manipulated people at times so that he will receive their support.

[Kadia]

Well... let's get back on track shall we? Which supporting families among 28 clans do u guys think will replace the current 10MC? I don't think Shippou's family will get promoted. There is also a possibility to maintain the status quo. I believe that the criterias used for consideration should be:

-Housing strong magicians
-Having great achievements/track records relating to magic community during 4 yrs interval (i.e. participate in defending country, invent new magics etc) 10MC meeting is held every 4 years right?
-Having recommendation by big wigs or current 10MC

Do u think there is a chance that Saegusa will fall to "extra" before the series end?

[Kokus]

guys just one question why are you so sure that the 3rd person on the cover is tat's ? ( at lest it fells like most of you are ) the combination of mayumi and mari on the cover dosn't make mutch sense if it is him
i think it may be a new character for example a hiden fiance for mayumi