2011-05-01, 02:31 | Link #1361 | |
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And, yes, I think the aspect of "pity or not" fundamentally goes back to the romance aspect of the show.
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2011-05-01, 02:44 | Link #1362 | ||
さっく♥ゆうきゃん♥ほそやん
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===== And nope, I'm not talking about the pity issue. I personally don't think it was pity...even though Sheryl started believing that. I don't think Alto himself thought about it that much (edit: at least not on that day/night itself). Nope. (Hm...are you analysing Sheryl mostly in 23 and 24? Because my reading of the dressing room scene is also slightly different to the whole 'going out with a bang' or even the 'bring Ranka back so that you can be really honest' interpretations...) To try and make what I'm getting at a bit clearer, I'll just post the relevant parts of what I said before again. Quote:
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2011-05-01, 02:52 | Link #1363 | |
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He wasn't cold to Ranka and he was honest to her... I don't think he could nor should have done more than that.
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2011-05-01, 03:47 | Link #1364 |
さっく♥ゆうきゃん♥ほそやん
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^
Those 'pleases' aren't quite as strong in Japanese as they might sound in English. Besides that, I've said all I wanted to on the subject, and I don't think we'll even come to an agreement on it. I won't absolve Ranka for being...well, pathetic, to put it bluntly. But I won't absolve Alto for being KY (i.e. for having low EQ) either. To be honest, I don't see him saying anything like that either, it's just not in his character to even notice emotional issues. And that's a flaw I think he has to fix.
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2011-05-01, 04:29 | Link #1365 | |
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2011-05-01, 08:31 | Link #1366 | |
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I agree with you that Frontier should not be burned down but on the other side, the way Alto has asked Ranka to sing "for the city and the people" just emotionally overran her. In episode 19 she figured out that it was not for the people she was singing. It was for the love for one person. That is her truth behind her power of singing. And then Alto asking for the opposite... it has a bade taste if you ask for my opinion.
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2011-05-01, 09:03 | Link #1367 | |
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2011-05-01, 12:32 | Link #1368 | ||
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Gyaah... so behind. Going to just comment on a few things quickly for now.
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Karice, this may sound a bit lazy, but can you just explain what your thoughts on Episodes 22 and 24 are rather than trying to make us guess? Various things I could note about Episode 25 itself, but for now I'm just going to stick with one thing I noticed during this particular rewatch. You know the scene with all the various secondary characters standing together in front of the Quarter just before the credits? Anyone think the three guys Elmo is standing with look awfully familiar? |
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2011-05-01, 17:40 | Link #1369 | |
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2011-05-01, 18:42 | Link #1370 | ||
さっく♥ゆうきゃん♥ほそやん
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For 24, SS13 pointed it out last week: Quote:
So in my mind, the reason she stops him from saying anything (even though she might have guessed that it's likely to be what she wanted to hear), it'd hurt because she knows - or believes, if you will - that she'll have to leave him soon, quite possibly during the battle. p.s. Kawamori's commentary on this episode in 2059: memories is basically that you have to look for the deeper meaning behind their conversation in this scene, rather than just taking the words at face value. ==== My question for episode 22 was just an exercise. I just want to see what (shippers) come up with when they take a step back from the romance aspect - i.e. you don't have to disregard it completely, just be aware of the wider context of the situation and how that may affect what happened that night. I'm not asking anyone to change their interpretations, just to be more fully aware of other readings of the scene. Would it help if I say what my present interpretation of the scene is? I think it's highly probable that they slept together, but as an AltoxSheryl fan, I'd prefer that they didn't - and no, it's got nothing to do with the 'was it pity?' interpretation that some people would go on about. Hence, I'll take Yoshino's evasiveness anytime: only Alto and Sheryl know what really happened that night.
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2011-05-01, 18:43 | Link #1371 | |
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I get that she's had a bad day. I really do. She's given a parade in her honor with the entire colony waiting around on her arrival. Her pet ran away. The ice cream store didn't stock her favorite flavor. And just when you think things couldn't get any worse, her future bf has to go ahead and save some stupid terminally ill girl, whose career she's pounded into the dust, from faceplanting into the ground. It's all too much to bear! No, the this is the one and only time that Alto ought to be more like Alto and less like Michael and Ozma. See, Ranka got everything that she'd ever envied about Sheryl's lifestyle on a silver platter, but she had to sign a deal with the devil to do it. The "hard knocks" of ep 19-21 was really the only way that she could break from that trap and be true to herself again. A necessary evil. |
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2011-05-01, 18:53 | Link #1372 | |
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As I already said several times, I'm NOT defending Ranka in this scene. But I'm also not as forgiving of Alto as most people seem to be.
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2011-05-01, 20:12 | Link #1373 | |
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Ranka has to confess her feelings to Alto, NOT THEIR FRIENDS BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT RANKA NOR ARE THEY HER REPRESENTATIVE. I remember something to this happened in Bakemonogatari and even its main character as nice as he was admitted that it wasn't his fault for not letting her down because she never confessed to him, nor was he obligated to return her feelings. |
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2011-05-01, 21:33 | Link #1374 |
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I have three words: "suspension of disbelief."
Well, I enjoyed watching this again with everyone. It is a fun series to watch and you can't beat music and mecha action. I plan on doing a re-watch of the original series over the summer, so keep a look out for the thread. Special thanks to Karice for all of the commentary stuff. You should make a blog for it so future audiences can read it.
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2011-05-02, 17:48 | Link #1375 | ||||
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Well, Some thoughts on Final episode.
- Sheryl's breakdown is totally understandable. She just thought Alto was lost and this took her last power. Also the network surely affected her as well (remember - fold network - Macross Quarter arrives just in time to Liberate Brera and save Alto - AND to unmask Battle Galaxy. - Grace once again -one-ups Mishima. Since she killed all his agents, nobody is here to protect him now. - Ghosts are awesome fighters, way superior to VF-17X. - By the way, it seems NUNS REALLY cut corners - after the VF-19 programm was cancelled, they haven't bought any thing new for nearly 20 years! No wonder they had such problems with Vajra: - NOW we know how Vajra were able to combat unmanned Frontier fighters - they were trained to do so by Galaxy. Most likely the interference field was established by Galaxy as well. - Galaxy REALLY is superior technologically. Ghosts, VF-27, Battle Galaxy. Guess corporate executives that financed it really were wealthy. We also understand how determined Frontier had to be to survive such an assault. - Galaxy is still hidden, which means... They'll be back! For more! AND it's confirmed Grace wasn't alone... so : - Interesting possibility: could it be that Galaxy leaders intended to hack and overtake Grace's network once it was established? - Again, Brain bug : If Vajra network is NOT designed with queen controlling everything tightly, how does Grace manage to turn it into such a network? - Vajra turning pink and going berserk is very artfully done. We really see the danger here. - Once again, songs save the day. - Interesting parallel : just like humans considered Vajra brainless, can it be that those fold batcteria are intelligent and just didn't understand that human brain is not the best place for them? - Ranka slapping Sheryl DOES have an effect but, this really comes uncalled for. The irony is that the slap wasn't about healing at first. The point of slap was: "Get a hold of yourself, just because YOU are going to die the others don't have to, so get up and sing!" And in the process, Sheryl got healed . - The healing was more "lead by example" than any special capabilities. By connecting with bacteria (viruses?) in Sheryl's brain, those in Ranka's body probably "explained" to them where they had to live, if the wanted their host to live longer. - There is a fine theory that says that Vajra lost their brain as adjustment to fold bacteria - no brain, no weak point. If that's true can it REALLY be that Ranka's brain is smaller? - Ranka STILL is not at on par with Sheryl. The slap was discussed earlier as was "help me". BN even her demeanor after that is still childish. - The dual Sheryl - Ranka song was indeed wonderful. - One wonders about all that Vajra attacking other places. Did they left with the queen? Regarding idols: Japanese Idol Singers are most like Disney Child Stars - selecting as much for looks as for ability, groomed to be stars, pushed up by advertisment more than anything else, adored on celebrity principle (if everybody watches it I will too), and then discarded after a few short years. Sheryl's fate in this is actually typical, and her comeback is what's really a wonder. One reason for it being possible was that Frontier is more traditional than Galaxy, so Sheryl was able to reach a bigger, more faithful fanbase with charity concerts, and then Ranka left and she got the opening again. For any girl that becmes an idol there are 10+ that don't despite being just as good. And of course idol singers are lead to believe they made it on their own, only learning the truth when they are discarded. As for Ranka and Elmo, Elmo doesn 't have power of Grace. He's got contacts, but little money. Some points: Quote:
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By the way, Kawamori outright said Alto should have died. What does thsi tells us about the movie? more later... |
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2011-05-04, 15:32 | Link #1376 | ||||
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Generally Macross is not a military fan. In all shows we see that military higher-ups are not really competent. First they forego VF-19 in favor of V-9 ghost (which promptly betrays them), and the then don't rearm their forces until 15 years later - they still are stuck with Vf-17 even though military companies altready churn VF-25 Quote:
I mean sure a stronger Zentraedi group coulbe be invented, bujt this wouldn't be quite as interesting ) And btw., we DO get this - in the middle, but compare ep. 13 to ep 25., for example - which is better? But the main Villain here seem to be the Galaxy conspiracy, and THAT thread is dangling. Will they, or some other cyborgs, be the 30 -anniversary antagonists? OK, some further points. - Sheryl'sx healing is a bit rushed, but I think the point wss that with V-Infection moved out, she simply got her willpower back. Brain is more sesilient than, say lung or vocal cords, so if only brain ws strained, this kinda makes sence - Alto is clearly now considered one of the bes pilots - why else would Klan leave Michel's gun to him? - One wonders what will happen to Brera - surely he helped in the end, but betrayal is betrayal, and he may face court-martial - And then there is Ranka, who may face charges, too. Spoiler for Comparison:
- Somehow even NUNS know that SMS is betters, since they immediately hear to Wilder - Some random thought: What will happen to Alto's infection? Did they manage to cure him, or did the link rendered his infection harmless, too? - One wonders how Klan feels about all this, having lost Michel, she is the loser here. But then maybe she can find her love from the Zentraedi who prefer to live macronized? - By the way, Frontier is in for bummer with this. Those forcefully micronized Zentraedi are sure unhappy now and will be a problem in a future. - The Explanation about Vajra feels somewhat off, but the main point is explained:_ they were interested in Ranka, and were goaded by Galaxy into attacking Frontier. - One wonders though what became of the Vajra: They left the that planet, but what about Vajra in other locations (like those we see attacking, and many else)? Doid ALL the Vajra left except Ai-Kun and if yes, where? Or did they just abandoned this one planet and resettled on some other planet in vicinity? And will we run into them in 30th anniversary (very unlikely) or later (at least possible)? - By the way, the Vajra attack scene (when they go overdrive and appear in many places) was utterly terrifyin. But on the other hand, Frontier is also a little backward technology, so... - This is another fine point. At first, seeing Frontier so copying today (trams, no implants etc) seemed dumb after Macross 7, but in hindsight, that's some deeper point: Frontier may be better prepared for the whole ordeal precisely because it clings to traditions and doesn't rely on newest technology. - Though the early implication that technology didn't save Galaxy is obviously wrong - Interesting tidbit: In episode 13, we had that Zentran rebel claiming "Universe is not big enough for two races!", One wonders what he would say now that three races (at least) are dividing it: Humans, Zentraedi and Vajra... - Once again Frontier shows us its idealistic, yet not wide-eyed nature: sure, a few superbaddies can force all other into fight, but once they are exposed and punished, all other will happily make peace. Klan even seems to forgive Ranka for what she did. -Yes, this challenge on Ranka's side is utterly stupid. As I mentioned earlier, the most likely reason Alto didn't told her off was that he didn't want to upset her with Vjara still around - More interesting will be the career challenge: Sheryl recovered her popularity on Frontier, but what on other ships? Or mabe she is still popular there (but given what I mentioned earlier about idol singers, this means unlikely ) Ranka, OTOH, is seen by many as traitor, and it's unclear wheter other Ships kno about her at all. But then the whole Idol singer mechanics constantly need fresh faces, and here Ranka is in advantage. - One also wonders about Sheryl's financial situation. Did she lost all her wealth with Galaxy, or is part of it stored in other accounts? If so, she may decide she has enough and settle for smaller stages (now that she finds that nice) and leave the Idol position to Ranka? - Regarding Sheryl's charachterisation. I remember to read somewhere that in early drafts, Sheryl really was a haughty, arrogant diva (like Miranda here), whom Ranka had to overthrow on her way to stardom. But we can be very happy this was changed, as the way it is played in the series is WAY better. In fact, Macross F is utterly honest here by showing how such "overthrowing" is total crap. - This is partially why Ranka comes as immature - she cannot live up to THAT Sheryl. The latter's charachter growth means that Ranka's development is constantly outshadowed. Mind you, she IS molre mature than in the beginning... but she still can't quite reach up to Sheryl. Quote:
Sheryl through late series represents accepting tragedies and living with them (her own, but also Michael etc. ) Ranka represents Hope that despite all bad things, everything will turn out fine. In fact, this is the point behind their medley. The Songstress of Hope and The Songstress of (despair) Reality are reunited - and their synergy gives other the power to win. Finishing part later. |
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2011-05-04, 15:49 | Link #1377 | |||||||||||
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OK, some further points. Quote:
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Unless I am mistaken, that looks like you got the info from the BS liner notes from Shaloom.
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2011-05-04, 18:04 | Link #1378 | |||||
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This open a frightening possibility. Typically mind control, in Sci-Fi setting, requires implants (compare Borg). But what if on Galaxy, there is a technology to mind control somebody just by a control device being close to the brain (after all, Brera's device was also partially outside - and an older model)? Just like those helmets from Macross 7? Now That would be a threat! Quote:
But there is a valid point here. NUNS in early episodes sucked totally, putting only a couple pf light units on display. Can it be that they had peace for so long (or alternatively fought with Ghost drones for so long) they got out of habit of actual warfare? It's almost as if Frontier military was massively reinforced during series - and given that Sheryl can travel from ship to ship in relatively short time, it isn't out of bounds. As for Battle Galaxy in-story, it WAS used in Frontier-near battles, except the very first, where they probably had iit not operable at the time (as above.) In Episodes 14, 18, 20, and 24-25 it was used. And in ep 7 or so it would be too dangerous to send it away from main island, so... But a couple more times usage would be good. Generally it's a shame it only got 25 episodes - it had material for 30-35. Quote:
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And generally put down everybody else too. Almost any person is portrayed worse in movies than in series, Grace being exception: Brera, Howard Glass, Leon, Alto, Sheryl And generally the movie differs from series precisely here. The series proposes the idea that most people (and non-people - see below) are reasonably good, even if selfish and can resolve conflichts peacefully - unless provoked by some very evil villains. As I wrote earlier Frontier makes a point to refute the claim that "The univers isn't big for two races" - it is , even for three. Spoiler for In contrast:
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But compared with "Protodeviln", Vajra are quite and interesting and enigmatic antagonist. In general this is a worthy successor of original Macross. |
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2011-05-05, 01:59 | Link #1380 | |||
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[QUOTE=SS13;3599484]And generally the movie differs from series precisely here. The series proposes the idea that most people (and non-people - see below) are reasonably good, even if selfish and can resolve conflichts peacefully - unless provoked by some very evil villains. As I wrote earlier Frontier makes a point to refute the claim that "The univers isn't big for two races" - it is , even for three. Spoiler for In contrast:
Well, until I've seen the movie, I'll reserve judgement on those characterizations and I think the series introduced "but we can get all along!" very late in the series ( in regards to the Vajra ). But in essence you are right about the series. [QUOTE=SS13;3599484]Well, Vajra ARE interesting in a way. Most times when Bugs are presented, they are just evil irredeemable bastards to shoot (compare Starship Troopers or StarCraft). When they are not (Species 8472 for example) they are mostly Humanlike in everything except appearance. The idea of an antagonist which is totally different from humans in both appearance and mindset, and yet reasonable (so when Grace is removed, we get some sort of peace agreement, at least for now). This is rarely presented in Sci-Fi, and when yes, it often leads to tragedy ("Ender's Game" comes to mind, and also "I Am Legend") So this was interesting, even though the seires never went deep enough to explore all the possibilities. But compared with "Protodeviln", Vajra are quite and interesting and enigmatic antagonist.[/SPOILER] Actually, I like the Protodevlin more, since they had a personality. Faceless antagonists like the Vajra bore me to tears. Also, the Zerg in Starcraft have those amusing Cerebrates and the Overmind. And let's not forget Kerrigan. I think the "implacable enemy who cannot be reasoned with" doesn't work too well for a long-term series. The Zerg actually have a personaliy through their leaders. The Tyranids from Warhammer 40k are an implacable and unknowable enemy, but they are not the sole antagonists of that universe, but only one menace to your existance. In Frontier it also were the people behind the scenes of Galaxy which were presented as interesting antagonists. The earrings.
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