[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[GoldenLand]

Thanks for the clarification about the red, Haguruma!

Originally Posted by haguruma

ON A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT NOTE
The often discussed question wether Knox and Dine applies is, I think, also quite well tackled in the EP8 manga during the chapter Mystery vs. Anti-Fantasy.
During these chapters the goats attack with different theories, each giving different characters the chance to attack them. When the final goat attacks and claims that it is all useless and this is neither a mystery nor a fantasy, but simply real mass-murder, all characters are helpless and the only thing capable to stand up to it is Battler with his Golden Truth.

Much as I adore the VN of ep 8 as it is, the ep 8 manga just keeps getting better and better. It really is the ending that the VN should have had. Really, it makes me wonder if eventually there would be some worth in making a VN patch to update the VN with the manga additions and info. Though that would take some additional writing, so would be harder than it looks.

Originally Posted by haguruma

The solution could just as well be gender-swapped Gohda-trice sitting in an insane asylum and smearing the story on the walls with feces

Pfft, Magical Chef Gohda-trice would not be so inelegant. He would transform into a cloud of bread and butterflies and slip through the bars, free to wreak havoc upon anyone. With his army of sentient, magical kitchen implements, there are no mysterious murders he cannot commit. Nobody can prove that Gohda is not capable of that.

On a different note, I do think that when people propose theories which they say are the definite truth, say that the red is the only thing which is trustworthy, and rely absolutely on Ryukishi lying through his teeth in the white text and in all interviews...it is pretty much absurd.

For one thing, the red text on its own is largely worthless. It doesn't tell a full story, and even people who claim to only be going by the red are actually accepting parts of the white text as fact. For example, there is no red text saying that Maria is Rosa's daughter. But that's not a fact which people tend to dispute, and the same goes for other parts of the white text - which means that in the end theorists who claim that only red matters are actually cherry picking things from the white text which they think support their theory with the red, while claiming that the parts of the white text which don't support their theory are worthless.

Secondly, if a writer is completely and utterly untrustworthy, lying shamelessly and without a shred of truth in all the non-red materials, there's no reason whatsoever to trust the red. The red is a tool which relies upon the trust that the reader places in the writer, and the promise that the red truth is the truth is...written in white text. And the writer in this case has gone to pains to make it clear that the mystery isn't one that can be solved if you only care about the red and disregard the white text.

http://witchhunters.livejournal.com/7366.html

R: The Red Text rule can only be established if you trust Beato. No matter how honest Battler is, a promise to speak only the truth is too much. They can argue about this point forever, but in EP2 Battler has already accepted this rule early on. Although even Beato herself cannot prove her Red Text is the truth, in the end, without trust, the Red Text battle with Beato would not be possible.

K: More people are holding the belief that "anything that is not in Red cannot be trusted."

R: Definitely. Doubting all the white text as a strategy is really fascinating.

K: It's certainly one way to go.

R: But at the same time, the suspicion of whether or not the Red Text can be fully believed also arises. It's similar to how we believe newspaper reports as truth and tabloid reports as rumours; it is our ability to determine right and wrong. There might be some discussion of the like in EP4. In essence, whether or not one decides to believe in the author determines the interest level of the mystery story. Now I understand why in mystery novel ads plastered on trains, the author's name is always bigger than the title. Other novels usually have the title in larger font, but it's the opposite for mystery novels. The underlying meaning isn't just about whether we should believe the Red Text or not, but we also see the trust relationship between the player and Beato.

K: I think believing in the Red Text is the right way to handle "Umineko" and Beato's chessboard. At the time EP2 were released, many people didn't believe in the Red Text. It was surprising because I believed in Beato's promise about the rule of the game being sacred.

R: But that promise is written in white (smile).

K: Really in white (smile). But I still believe it even if it's in white. Since Beato has invited us into the game, we should accept her challenge and respect the rules.

R: Right. The game cannot go on if a two-way trust relation cannot be established. Battler sees Beato as a good opponent, but at the same time it contradicts his action to disprove witches. It's like preventing oneself from being scammed; the most important thing is not to subjectively reject everything the other person says. If you haven't even listened to what the other is saying yet, then it couldn't possibly turn into a scam.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by battle22

I understand that. But same can be said about the scene when Battler is being told that he is not the son of Asumu, right? He believes he is, so he...should be able to say the red, but he chocked. Shouldn't the same happen in the scene we are discussing now?

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

It's kind of an explicit plot hole because the Red's pretty inconsistent, especially between the first part and Chiru. Considering the existence of Logic Errors, it seems evident that Beatrice forced him to choke.

Actually this part is interesting because it kind of doesn't make sense... unless we take it to mean that a person can state a subjective or objective truth in red and their ability to do so actually turns upon their intention.

For example, if Battler were to say in red "I am Ushiromiya Asumu's son," I think he probably could, if what he was trying to say is "Asumu was the person I called my mother and she's the one who raised me." Lots of people who are adopted refer to their parents as their parents, and they're not wrong; for example, if legally adopted the law would say that their adoptive parents indeed are their parents. The issue in ep4 is that Battler is attempting to make a statement about an objective physical truth regarding whether Asumu gave birth to him.

We see this come up in ep6 as well, where Battler and Erika quibble over the red definition of "person" versus "body." This is the first time anyone's really demanded a strict physical definition and Battler agrees to abide by it. Arguably, this is the very reason a Logic Error exists at all, as had Battler not agreed to a hard definition of "exist" then he could've argued some silliness like "Battler gave up his name and hid under the bed, so he wasn't Battler anymore and Battler didn't exist in the room." The red truth can be entirely subjective or this entire sequence of back-and-forth between Battler and Erika makes no sense. If red truth is non-subjective and not subject to interpretation then Battler's red statements mean the same thing regardless of how Erika requests that he define the terms he uses. Since she does do this, and it changes how things work, it's clear that red is subjective and Erika knew or suspected as much, and Battler confirms this by agreeing with her.

That said, using "dead" to mean something other than dead is blatant authorial cheating and opens up all sorts of cans of worms, but that's bad writing, not a sign that the true solution is still out there.

[Captain Bluebeard]

Originally Posted by haguruma

The solution could just as well be gender-swapped Gohda-trice sitting in an insane asylum and smearing the story on the walls with feces

WHYYY WHYYY WHYYY WOULD YOU DO THIS TO ME??? I CAN'T GET THE IMAGE OUT OF MY HEAD!!!!!!!!

ON A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT NOTE
The often discussed question wether Knox and Dine applies is, I think, also quite well tackled in the EP8 manga during the chapter Mystery vs. Anti-Fantasy.
During these chapters the goats attack with different theories, each giving different characters the chance to attack them. When the final goat attacks and claims that it is all useless and this is neither a mystery nor a fantasy, but simply real mass-murder, all characters are helpless and the only thing capable to stand up to it is Battler with his Golden Truth.

This seriously makes me look all the more forward to the scanlation of EP8.

And also kind of pissed.... Ending the series in a way that you know will dissatisfy readers is one thing, could even be said that it was his right. However, when you yourself and your audience have invested so much time and thought in such a long (and definitely well-loved) work, isn't it like a huge middle finger to everyone to just end it so sloppily? Couldn't he give EP8 (and arguably, all of Chiru) some more quality time and work? I heard somewhere that an average Chiru Episode took Ryukishi one month to write. Which is amazing to some extent, but also seems very.... unprofessional.

As much as I liked EP8, it was very very sloppily done, and it definitely had a lot of potential which it didn't live up to. It's a really good thing that the manga is making up for it, but there shouldn't be a need to do so in the first place.

[Renall]

As I understand it he wanted to do a Comiket release and missing a Comiket deadline means waiting at least another 6 months for the second Comiket of the year (or first of the next, whatever). So money was kind of riding on it. On the other hand he's a semi-independent doujin author so it's not like he was really running against strict corporate deadlines or anything.

[Captain Bluebeard]

I think he did miss a winter Comiket with RGD because of health problems(?). I'm not sure if that was the reason, but I'm almost certain he didn't attend one. If he could afford to do this with RGD, then he certainly could hold Umineko's finale up if it would help achieve a greater quality and include more things. Since it was the finale, you would assume he'd try to make everything perfect.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by eX_ploit

battle22
while I was writing a response to you I decided to reread the part about Kanon's death in ep1, and found a curious fact.
After they found Kanon injured in the boiler room, Nanjo and George took him to the servants room, and after that George and Jessica helped Nanjo to treat Kanon. And Nanjo said that Kanon had a very serious wound, so Shkanon doesn't match here at least, unless you suggest that George and Jessica are accomplices as well as Nanjo.

Hum... from your reply I've the feeling you doesn't have a full knowledge of the details of the ShKanon theory and of the other sources of info.

I'll toss him some details.
In the ShKanon's theory the murderer who kills off screen is always the same for all the murders. This doesn't stop others from killing on screen (Eva shoots Battler in Ep 3).
Nanjo, Genji, Kumasawa and Gohda are hired as accomplices in all the games.
Kumasawa and Gohda believe however that it's all a mystery game and people are faking being dead.
Genji is supposed to be in out of loyalty (no official confirmation yet from the manga) and Nanjo is supposed to either have been blackmailed or bribed (he has a sick granchild and he had been bribed more than once through his life).

In addition to those regular accomplices Yasu, according to the gamboards, choses some adults to bribe/blackmail. In Ep 5, the most obvious of the boards, Natsuhi was blackmailed while the adults were 'hired' in exchange of info over Kinzo's death and the promise of the gold.
Often people doesn't know she's killing for real but think it's all make ups and fake corpses.
Maria always helps as she believes in Beatrice and in the fact she'll take her in the Golden Land where her mother will be more loving.
Occasionally George and Jessica are also hired under the belief of taking part to a game.

Originally Posted by eX_ploit

Lol, that's why I said from beginning that we can't trust manga.
She accepts testimony that he's in the back without seeing him?
Are we really talking about Erika here?
Doesn't she have perfect sight and hearing? And always looking out for clues?

Yes, we're talking of the Erika who didn't check the corpses and bladantly ignored the riddle of who placed the letter during the trial. The Erika who accepts that Kinzo walks around moving corpses while at the same time managing to not let even a clue for her HE was the one walking around.

Erika is out on searching clues when she can't rely on red or when it can be useful for her theory. She isn't ALWAYS out searching for them.

In addition Erika accepted in the VN testimony for things she couldn't know... like that the adults found an envelope out of the door.

But what's the most important is that PieceErika and MetaErika weren't present when it was said everyone was gathered in the parlour so Erika didn't know about this. Bern withold from her informations so that she would propose a solution of Bern's liking and not necessarily the truth (Bern knows Kinzo is dead but she wants a solution that says Kinzo was Natsuhi's lover and accomplice).

So Erika had no idea she had to check this apparently harmless piece of info and didn't do it.

Originally Posted by battle22

I understand that. But same can be said about the scene when Battler is being told that he is not the son of Asumu, right? He believes he is, so he...should be able to say the red, but he chocked. Shouldn't the same happen in the scene we are discussing now?

Nope because the question was if he was born from Asumu while he was the detective and couldn't say falsehood so he couldn't use red to claim he believed he was born from Asumu.

I think the red in Ep 5 refers to the fact 'he claimed he saw Kinzo' which is true. However he was "mistaken" (or whatever else) and what he saw wasn't really Kinzo.
Alternatively the trick is similar to the one used in Natsuhi's room when Erika checked if it was possible that Natsuhi were to call the room 'Kinzo'. He saw someone else, knew he saw someone else but insisted he saw Kinzo because he labelled that person as 'Kinzo' as per previous agreement or sudden impulse.
So he saw someone he arbitrarily decided to call "Kinzo" even if the name "Kinzo" doesn't belong to that person.

Originally Posted by haguruma

ON A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT NOTE
The often discussed question wether Knox and Dine applies is, I think, also quite well tackled in the EP8 manga during the chapter Mystery vs. Anti-Fantasy.
During these chapters the goats attack with different theories, each giving different characters the chance to attack them. When the final goat attacks and claims that it is all useless and this is neither a mystery nor a fantasy, but simply real mass-murder, all characters are helpless and the only thing capable to stand up to it is Battler with his Golden Truth.

I think it is really dependent on what you attempt to take from it. If you decide that the story is a mystery, then it has to go conform with the rules of said genre (according to Umineko), if it is not then you have to adapt your theory accordingly.
Thus neither Knox nor Dine help us with figuring out the truth, not unless we assume that reality happened just like a mystery.

Again thank you so much for translating this lovely bits from the manga which is really making everything so much better. Really, the manga is totally awesome in how it "clears the board" and answers to everything.

[battle22]

I think he did miss a winter Comiket with RGD because of health problems(?). I'm not sure if that was the reason, but I'm almost certain he didn't attend one. If he could afford to do this with RGD, then he certainly could hold Umineko's finale up if it would help achieve a greater quality and include more things. Since it was the finale, you would assume he'd try to make everything perfect.

I hear that people had a horrible reaction to EP7 regarding Yasu's gender. And Ryu tried to rush it and end it as soon as possible.

Can anyone back this up?

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by battle22

I hear that people had a horrible reaction to EP7 regarding Yasu's gender. And Ryu tried to rush it and end it as soon as possible.

Can anyone back this up?

I've also heard about the bad reaction people had in regards to Yasu's gender at least on 2ch where the idea seemed to generate horror and disgust.
I don't know if this pushed Ryukishi to end it as fast as he could, but I've heard when it was a delay in handing either the new Higurashi or Umineko at Comiket Ryukishi had troubles (can't remember well the details, sorry) so I guess he really didn't want to delay Ep 8 any further?

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard

I think he did miss a winter Comiket with RGD because of health problems(?). I'm not sure if that was the reason, but I'm almost certain he didn't attend one. If he could afford to do this with RGD, then he certainly could hold Umineko's finale up if it would help achieve a greater quality and include more things. Since it was the finale, you would assume he'd try to make everything perfect.

RGD was written after Umineko, so it could just be that he learned his lesson with ep8 and chose not to rush RGD if circumstances prevented him from finishing it properly.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

I've also heard about the bad reaction people had in regards to Yasu's gender at least on 2ch where the idea seemed to generate horror and disgust.

Well, 2ch is always a hellhole, so you can't really go by that. They scream horror and apocalypse if a woman dares so much as to step out of the kitchen or a foreigner dares to do anything remotely challenging the perceived outsider-norm...not to talk even of most of their ideas of gender-identity. It's basically as qualitatively well-rounded as taking a step into a newspaper comment-section.

I can imagine though that he got quite tired of Umineko in the way it was done then, considering how much he hammered on tha large masses being slobbering goats...I think there was a bit of frustration that the whole game got so negatively out of hand at certain points.
Ending it in the VN kinda gave him a little leeway to recreate it in the manga I suppose, because by now only those that are actually interested or new readers would be following.

EDIT: Btw. for those interested. I caved and bought the Kindle-version of vol.4 of the EP8 manga...and since it's the first time I'm properly reading those chapters (not tachiyomi or Chinese scans I only half understand) I am again surprised by how much more dramatic those chapters are within the restructured plot...
Details will probably follow

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by haguruma

Well, 2ch is always a hellhole, so you can't really go by that. They scream horror and apocalypse if a woman dares so much as to step out of the kitchen or a foreigner dares to do anything remotely challenging the perceived outsider-norm...not to talk even of most of their ideas of gender-identity. It's basically as qualitatively well-rounded as taking a step into a newspaper comment-section.

I can imagine though that he got quite tired of Umineko in the way it was done then, considering how much he hammered on tha large masses being slobbering goats...I think there was a bit of frustration that the whole game got so negatively out of hand at certain points.
Ending it in the VN kinda gave him a little leeway to recreate it in the manga I suppose, because by now only those that are actually interested or new readers would be following.

2ch seems quite a scary place...
Well, I think Umineko was a work that should have exhausted him. Maybe it's just me but it looks much more complex than Higurashi and requiring a lot of extra work to make sure everything fit as well as making up characters and so on.

It can entirely be he just wanted... to end it.

Considering also there wasn't going to be a second anime series and that he had to compromise with his original idea maybe he felt a little disappointed and discouraged.

Honestly it's a pity Chiru didn't get animated but I'm re-reading the VN while re-watching the anime and re-reading the manga and while the manga, with some up and down, can be considered a decent transposition the anime is... a poor summary at best which prefers to fevote more attention to female breasts than to the plot.

Though, truth to be told, as far as I'm involved the second series of Higurashi was better drawn than the first so maybe Umineko could have been improved in Chiru...

*sighs* I wish they would collect the Pachinko animation in one OAV. So far it seems much better than the anime.

[jjblue1]

Random question is random.

In Ep 1 they talk about how several years ago Jessica began to give suggestions to Shannon about how to act around George. I was wondering if in the original text is made clear Shannon was talking about George or if it was just Jessica who assumed it because after Shannon mentioned George.

Because Shannon started growing interested in George around 1984 so it's not really several years ago... so I've been wondering if Shannon was actually thinking at Battler and Jessica assumed instead she was thinking at George and us readers were further mislead into thinking Shannon was referring to George by Ep 2.

[Captain Bluebeard]

I looked up the scene in question. Here is what Jessica specifically says:

"...............Well, I......several years ago, I had a talk with Shannon....About you, George nii-san."

"......I wonder what she could have said."

"............Shannon was always really bad at lying. Once she started talking about you, it was instantly obvious.............She asked whether it would be okay if she herself...with only the status of a servant, could get close to you.......She asked about stuff like what kind of things do boys like, and what kind of clothes should she wear would make them happy, lots of stuff like that.
...............How should I say it? Well, I was jealous of her."

Other than the 'once she started talking about you' part, I'd say nothing in the scene conclusively points towards George. If that wasn't mentioned, it might not be much of a stretch to say Jessica only assumes that she was talking about George, but we see that his name did come up in the discussion.

Btw, a bit irrelevant, about the red truth matter that was discussed above, in EP4 Beatrice makes a red statement about Sakutaro having been made by Rosa and being unique in the entire world. EP8 manga clearly confrims the opposite. So we can take it that the red is completely subjective, right?

[theacefrehley]

I guess Beatrice chokes before finishing her line about Sakutaro in EP4

[Captain Bluebeard]

I'm pretty sure she doesn't.

[Renall]

I think that goes with the whole "later truths override the truths of the past" and "some red speaks to a game, some red speaks to reality."

Beatrice/Yasu believes Sakutarou is unique and made by Rosa because Rosa told Maria that, Maria believed it, and Maria told Beatrice that. In Beatrice's eyes, that is the truth. Ange knows that none of that is true, so once Ange's truth becomes overriding then Beatrice can no longer state it because it's factually false in the broader sense of the world at large.

Or something along those lines.

[Captain Bluebeard]

In that case, isn't Battler's inability to state in red that 'it was from Ushiromiya Asumu that he was born' sort of a plot hole? This is the truth in his eyes, so he should be able to say it.... Except if Beatrice knowing it isn't true renders him unable to do so (although how would Yasu know such a thing is beyond me, it's unlikely anyone but Rudolf and the doctors made the exchange would know).

Also, he is able to make this statement:

Ushiromiya Battler's mother is Ushiromiya Asumu.
It was from Ushiromiya Asumu that Ushiromiya Battler was born

The first one can sort of be explained if we go by the persona logic, saying that since Asumu raised him and loved him as his mother she is qualified to the title 'mother' and therefore the red reffers to her as that.

But does the second one reffer to the stillborn child? Because if so, it is really shitty. It might make sense if, per say, Rudolf or Asumu had expressed a desire to name their first child Battler no matter what or something, but there's no reason for the dead baby to also have the name Battler.

P.S: A little bit irrelvant but re-reading that scene, an interesting thing I noticed is that it looks like the Meta representation of Yasu trying to delude herself that this man who does not remember the promise must not be the real Battler, which I really hadn't picked up before.

[Renall]

Well, if Beatrice is even able to use that logic then someone who feeds information to Meta-Beatrice is aware of Battler's unusual birth circumstances. Beatrice wouldn't have even tried to use the argument if she didn't know, because like Battler she'd just assume that Asumu did give birth to him. I don't know how Beatrice/Yasu knew, but apparently she did know.

Maybe Genji got tied up in the baby swap nonsense at some point or another and was supposed to keep his mouth shut about it but told Yasu because he tells Yasu everything. Maybe Yasu did some digging. Maybe it's information from the future where the baby swap was better-known... although in that case Sakutarou's non-uniqueness also ought to have been known to Beatrice so maybe not.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Renall

Well, if Beatrice is even able to use that logic then someone who feeds information to Meta-Beatrice is aware of Battler's unusual birth circumstances.

Well, the question here is also whether we can really equate Meta-Beatrice and Yasu to the degree that it really tells us something about what Yasu on the island knew.
I'm working my way through being able to show some stuff from EP8 manga's chapters 12-24 (and maybe 25-27 once I'm back in Japan), but to say that beforehand, it is made quite clear that "Beato" and "that person" are two distinct entities.

We can probably assume that the Beatrice who fights Battler in EP4 is only born out of the "Rokkenjima Witch Murder Case" discourse from around 1988 onwards and Tohya's reading of the message bottles as well as his own thoughts and Battler's memories.
It's kinda weird logic in a way, but I think it's more Tohya remembering that there was something off about Battler's connection to the family and thought it an excuse to escape the game as well. If Ushiromiya Battler was not Ushiromiya Battler then Hachijo Tohya has no obligation towards whatever that weird person on an island in 1986 was demanding of "him".

[theacefrehley]

http://umineko.wikia.com/wiki/Red_Truth

Made by Rosa for her daughter's birthday, and in the entire world, the only[,]


I dont have the game now, but, yes, Beatrice cant say the whole phrase, and stops midway.

And there's a chapter in ep8 manga that explains how Beatrice got to know about the baby swap (via furniture = Genji)
It's chapter 7 of ep8