2011-01-06, 07:51 | Link #21302 | |
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Was this actually confirmed or it was just purely Ange's speculation? Or R07 didn't give any answers ; ___ ; ? |
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2011-01-06, 08:14 | Link #21303 | ||
阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180
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Unless I forgot the details, I'm pretty sure Touya never explained what really happened to Ange, nor why he was writing the "* of the golden witch" novels. But he definitely remembers of everything before even Episode 4 Ange so. Quote:
We won't know since that path won't go any further anyway so heh. That being said, considering the magic end, it is really weird that Okonogi would still leave Ange alone, or even support her even if she let all the business to him. As an observer of both ending, I must say that it is sort of disturbing to see Okonogi having such a win situation if he was really plotting like that (and suffice to say, that scene in Episode 6 with Amakusa is kind of ambigous as well, considering we can't be sure if it is a neutral perspective).
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2011-01-06, 09:19 | Link #21304 |
Miss Kimi
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Residing as the 18th guest of Rokkenjima
Age: 28
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Hachijou Toya as Asumu, is that what somebody suggested? Well, I don't think I believe it, because they don't even foreshadow it. Plus Hachijou looks nothing like Ange nor Battler ._.
*sob sob* I couldn't resist! *sob* I just had to check this thread out *sob* I saw the spoilers and *sob* ,WHY, BATTLER, WHY?!?!?! *armsspreadkinzostyle*
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2011-01-06, 09:36 | Link #21305 | ||
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It's a pretty unfortunate position. To justify his existence with a single almost entirely sidelined point means he's basically less useful as a character than several wholly meta characters. Or else we must conclude Ryukishi just had to have it in there for the flimsiest of reasons. Quote:
Maybe he was just a really nice guy who Ange worried might be shifty (perhaps understandably). I mean, Eva trusted him, and I think by now Eva's earned the benefit of the doubt.
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2011-01-06, 09:46 | Link #21306 |
阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180
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That's actually the other reasons I was doubting the whole deal with Okonogi and Amakusa.
Now the issue is: What's up with Amakusa in the trick end then? His behavior wasn't suspicious, considering the situation. It is just that the weapons he has taken with him don't make much sense. However, if we flip the chessboard, Ange's theory isn't flawless either: If the premise was to kill Kasumi and Ange, why would he need to stage their confrontation considering they are in a deserted island? For all we know, he could as well throw their corpses as fish food as well. Thus, the existence of the Tokarev doesn't really prove jack. In fact, it could pretty well be a weapon just in case, for either himself or even Ange. At worst, it is possible that Amakusa was actually using Ange as a bait, but nevertheless tried to protect her as well (but Episode 4 ending scroll and Episode 6 phone call are just death flag everywhere). Unless, we use a "love filled" vision and consider that Okonogi implied that "Ushiromiya Ange should no longer exist" without necesseraly killing her. A shaddy way to recreate the same scenario than the magic end.
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2011-01-06, 09:54 | Link #21307 |
Komrades of Kitamura Kou
Join Date: Jul 2004
Age: 39
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It has to do more with the mysterious phone conversation between Amakusa and Okonogi while Ange was talking to Hachijou. That's the only link we have that Okonogi wanted Amakusa to do something to or with Ange. There's a good likelihood that perhaps at some point Okonogi did hire Amakusa to kill her, but somewhere down the like Amakusa relented. Reverse Stockholm syndrome if you will.
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2011-01-06, 10:15 | Link #21308 |
阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180
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The phone call itself could be interpreted in 2 ways, although the "love one" is a bit of a sketch. That said, nothing can actually confirm its actual relevancy (after all, this is a part woven by Featherine, since Ange never met Hachijou Touya in reality).
That said, the reality shown in Episode 8 seems to confirm that Okonogi was a "good guy" though, albeit a bit shifty (as shown with his dodgy stance with Kasumi in EPisode 4). Otherwise, Ange would definitely never be left free like that, even if she gave what Okonogi wanted on a silver plate.
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2011-01-06, 10:32 | Link #21309 |
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Well, as you said, it's mostly Ange's own conclusions and one conversation of questionable veracity. The point I was making is more that we can't necessarily be uncomfortable with Okonogi "getting away with it" if he never actually got away with anything and if we don't even know if he was trying to.
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2011-01-06, 11:09 | Link #21310 | |||||||
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Re: Will Wright
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tend to be essay-length and usually have some degree of finality to them, as "in final judgment" finality. That's not because I'm arrogant, it's just the way my mind works. But for some silly reason people tend to mix that mode of self-expression with "elitism" and what-not. Nothing can be further from the truth, really. On the other hand, I do find it amusing how clearly highly intelligent and well-read people like Renall, Jan, yourself and others indulge in day-to-day discussions here about shit that seriously isn't worth your time. Quote:
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She was such a breath of fresh air, and although in retrospect her introduction was probably the point Umineko express went to hell, what a fun ride it was! As for Will, I like him a lot, but I cannot forgive him having everything presented to him on a silver platter and Bern being easy on him (up to that Tea party, of course). Other than that, he's a fine character, indeed. Quote:
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2011-01-06, 11:21 | Link #21311 | ||
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I also liked Battler before he stopped doing anything. I couldn't stand Erika, but I got quickly that she wasn't supposed to be tolerable. Which I assume most of her fans understand as well, and just like her because she's so masterful at it (and no question, she is). I mean, I hope. But I don't think she belonged, or else she should've been around sooner.
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2011-01-06, 11:37 | Link #21312 |
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Oh, and speaking of favourite characters. Let's not forget Kyrie of Ep7 Tea Party. I don't care if it was supposed to be grotesque, gross mischaracterization or just plain lie.
The fact is I've always believed her capable of doing what she did there, and I was having time of my life watching her finally doing it. It's that unique sensation when everything you thought a person capable of doing finally comes together and reveals itself in all its ruthless, naked glory. I laughed, I cried, I rooted for her because in her inhumanity she was the most human (in the truest sense of the word), the most alive of them all, the way she has always been, I believe. Truly the stuff dreams are made of.
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2011-01-06, 11:45 | Link #21313 |
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I liked it because she was being as competent as she was talked up to be for once (instead of dying instantly), but it was grossly out of character to be that, well, impulsively stupid about things.
Like Jan-Poo pointed out: What if Beatrice was lying about the bomb?
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2011-01-06, 11:55 | Link #21315 | |
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It goes far beyond Kanon.
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2011-01-06, 12:13 | Link #21316 |
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What you need to argue is that there is a need for gender ambiguity in the story, and thus, there is a need for these characters. There isn't, nor was the presence of one even remotely important before it was shoehorned in. Your argument amounts to "because Ryukishi put in a stupid and irrelevant plot point, these characters needed to exist."
Yet Kanon at the very least can exist for a half-dozen other reasons (some Shkanon, some not) without any gender ambiguity issues being material to the story (and they aren't, but that's a bad writing issue and not an incorrect interpretation issue). His character can fill other roles, and in fact does fill other roles. Cheapening him to an afterthought is disrespectful, but I can't really fault anyone for it since apparently Ryukishi thought we'd all be satisfied with him cheapening Kanon to an afterthought. But really, the character has no reason to exist at all. Umineko as a whole and in component parts is no weaker if he doesn't exist in it. In fact, I'd argue it's stronger, as a story and as a mystery. Or we could conclude there's something more valuable to him than scent-thrower-offer and Characterization For Dummies: A Very Special Blossom Episode vector.
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2011-01-06, 12:20 | Link #21317 | |
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Of course there can be other reasons for that, but that's the one given in the text. As I pointed out, it's not just Kanon, it's a bunch of other things. Ryukishi could have ignored it all together, but he also has Will bring it to our attention in EP7. It's something we're meant to think about and consider as part of Beatrice's character.
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2011-01-06, 12:25 | Link #21318 | |
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Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Ryuukishi created something unique. Yeah, certainly, you can find many of his ideas in several previous works, but he was the one who managed to put them together and he created a system that allowed the readers to discuss about this story through a very long span of time. He was also able to create a sort of feedback author-reader that I don't remember seeing in any other work of this kind. He basically adapted his story on the readers' responses and theories. The idea of the red truth was probably what I found particularly fascinating. Ryuukishi has been a master in presenting you closed room scenarios, guiding you through a set of plausible explanations and then denying them in the most abrupt and dramatic way leaving you completely mindfucked. I remember myself grinding my teeth and then shouting: "this is impossible! How the hell the culprit did it if you deny all of this stuff! It can't be!" It was a thrilling experience. But it was so only because I had the certainty and faith that a brilliant and ingenious solution existed. My reaction would have been completely different otherwise. The red truths were also an incredibly funny tool to use during discussions in this forum. The red truths allowed this to be a game. A game needs rules, if there aren't rules you don't have a game. We had very few rules, we had very simple rules, but they allowed for a very fun game: The red truth is simply the truth, Battler's perspective is reliable. I remember how I enjoyed that game. I was addicted. That's why I've spent so much time on this forum. But then something changed. Chronotrig can confirm that after EP6 I lamented the fact that "the game" didn't exist anymore. There were simply no rules anymore, it was anarchy, and without rules you can't have a game. The red truths became almost meaningless and the discussions could never reach a satisfying conclusion anymore. In the end if one wanted, he could argue that there was some kind of loophole that allowed his theory to be correct no matter how much preposterous it was. We don't know. We can't know. We can't be sure. You can't deny it. So what exactly are we discussing about? if it's about how you enjoyed the story that can be done in like a week tops, there's really no need to go on indefinitely. And honestly I don't really care about that. Not because I don't care about a good story, but because I don't care about listening to other people's impressions. You hated? You liked it? Big deal! That doesn't really affect my opinion. And I've been in forums long enough to know that you'll always find haters and fanboys in every human work. De gustibus non disputandum est Ancient roman wisdom, and they were damn right; so you can pull me out of any discussion of that kind. I think my activity in this forum went downhill from EP6 onward (apart from the initial shkanon struggles), because there was simply no much point in discussing theories anymore. And now... it feels like there wasn't a point to begin with. You can choose whatever theory suits you better and believe it's the truth. But of course for that, you don't really need a forum.
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2011-01-06, 12:40 | Link #21319 | |
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I hope at least Witches & Woodlands pt.3 is going to see the light of day. Otherwise I.. WANT... FORGIVE YOU!!
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2011-01-06, 12:52 | Link #21320 | |
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They really weren't kidding when they said Rokkenjima was such a box way back when.
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