High School DxD Light Novel - Character power-ups, match-ups, and ratings

[Krudelu]

Originally Posted by Hakaishin

How big is the gap between Maou-class and Rizevim the 'weakest Super Devil'?

Compatibility aside, how do you guys think he'll fare against two Maou-class opponents in a 2vs1 fight?

Let's say something like Bedeze and Tannin vs Rizevim, how do you guys think it'll turn out?

Here's my input on this one so prepare for some blunt statements from me at least

How big is the gap between Maou-class and Rizevim the 'weakest Super Devil'?

This varies which "Maou-class" person that's referring to.

Compatibility aside, how do you guys think he'll fare against two Maou-class opponents in a 2vs1 fight?

I won't suggest neglecting compatibility aside on this one especially this is concerning a solo against two individuals. Depending on the combination of the two "maou-class" opponents, this can vary on how well it will turn out. Sometimes the two may have good combination and teamwork, sometimes the two aren't getting along which affects performance, etc.

Whenever it involves team matches, there's too many things to take into account especially if we don't know which team composition is it.

And whenever I think about compatibility, I'm taking TONS of factor into account. Not just something as simple and straightforward like "fire is a bad matchup against water," "mace is effective against armors," etc.

Let's say something like Bedeze and Tannin vs Rizevim, how do you guys think it'll turn out?

Now this is a much better question since we're being specific of who are those "maou-class" opponents.

Let's do a little breakdown:

Bedeze
1. Good at close combat
2. Can overwhelm his opponent by having his shots come from the hole while surrounding his opponent with a lot of holes.
3. Can return attacks with his hole including melee
4. Can stop his opponent's movement by grabbing on their foot through the hole
5. His attacks are strong enough to cause damage to BB Sairaorg

One thing for sure is that Bedeze's hole might not be able to absorb Rizevim's strongest attack given the shown limit at volume 21.


Tanin
1. Have a huge AoE with his fire breath

Tanin didn't have much battles so far in the series so there's little information to use in his case


Rizevim
1. Good at close combat
2. Blocked Michael's holy spear unscathed
3. Survived after his attack lost to Infinity Blaster
-that attack he shot is said to be powerful enough to destroy the floating city of Agreas. Who knows what may actually happen if the attack actually connect to the city itself but one thing for sure is that it took Infinity Blaster to beat it
-Chances are that his attack may have been able to soften the blast after the two attack's collision. Who knows what would happen to him if he took a direct hit from Infinity Blaster

Okay, we know that Rizevim have really good durability thanks to his feats in volume 18 and 20 but I wonder how long can he hold up if he ends up getting to defensive situation?


Anyway, as for what I think how this will turn out (given that they are working together properly)

Originally Posted by DragonOsman

Anyway, yeah, it's true that Rizevim was strong even without the Sacred Gear Canceler. But probably, in a long war of attrition against two Maou-class opponents, he might lose. I'm not sure, though.

If Rizevim ends up in a defensive situation while the two can keep up the momentum, this is what I think may happen but this is for against Bedeze and Tanin at least.

If Rizevim is able to take out one of them before they gain an advantage, then this will be his favor

So overall, this can go either way depending on the circumstances and who gets the advantage first.

Sorry for trying to get a little detailed into this. I personally go in depth on the characters when it comes to this kind of discussions rather than just rely on the "classes" to determine the results. Well, I guess I can understand to a certain extent as to why people would put emphasis on the "classes" when it comes to figuring out potential results given the nature of data in this series

[Hakai]

Originally Posted by Krudelu

I won't suggest neglecting compatibility aside on this one especially this is concerning a solo against two individuals. Depending on the combination of the two "maou-class" opponents, this can vary on how well it will turn out. Sometimes the two may have good combination and teamwork, sometimes the two aren't getting along which affects performance, etc.

Whenever it involves team matches, there's too many things to take into account especially if we don't know which team composition is it.[/B]

When I said "compatibility aside" it meant he doesn't have horrible compatibility with his opponents, meaning they are not a bad matchup for him. Same goes for his opponents where Rizevim himself isn't a bad matchup for them.

Since Ishibumi has been pretty clear that bad match ups can seriously screw you up regardless of classes/levels.

[DragonOsman]

@Krudelu: Good post. I mostly agree, but again, is Bedeze still Maou-class? And we also don't know if Tannin is one or not.

@Hakaishin: I guess you're right about bad match-ups. Thanks for the clarification on what you meant, too.

[Krudelu]

Originally Posted by Hakaishin

When I said "compatibility aside" it meant he doesn't have horrible compatibility with his opponents, meaning they are not a bad matchup for him. Same goes for his opponents where Rizevim himself isn't a bad matchup for them.

Gotcha

As for not having horrible compatibility, it would be almost unavoidable ending up with horrible ones since compatibility varies depending on who are going up against who especially if we're not specific on who are being referred to (what I meant by this is which individual.

Being specific on who is going to be matched up against who and analyzing the characters in depth is one of the ways to figure out whether it's a bad matchup or not and it's severity.

If you meant matching him up to a "maou-class" that doesn't have bad compatibility at each other, yeah that would also depends.

@DragonOsman I think the one in question is at least when Bedeze still have the King piece. Without King Piece, there's no telling how much he got nerfed so it's hard to figure out to what extent can he still do things. For Tanin, yeah there's no telling if he's "maou-class" or not

Personally, when I answered it, I didn't really cared whether they're "maou-class" or not. What's important here is that it's specified who is being matched up against who.

[DragonOsman]

Yeah, if it's Bedeze from when he still had the King Piece, then I guess it's fine to call him Maou-class. But we don't know what tier of Ultimate-class Tannin is exactly, so it's hard to tell if he's Maou-class or not.

[bodo]

Tannin is Maou-class.

Volume 5 Life 2:
“Here you are, here you are. It’s no use even if you become good at just running away. Come on, fight back.”

“It’s impossible! You’re too strong! Could you, be even stronger than Vali!?”

“Well, I have often been said to be Maou-class in terms of pure power.”

See! You’re a monster! What’s with the Maou-class talk!? Why am I trying to survive on a mountain with a Maou-class dragon!?

[vietthai96]

if i remember Dragon King class is at Ultimate-Class Devil to Satan level , and Tannin being resurrected by a Queen Piece it will boost his power even more

[Lucidrago]

I still think Rizevim would win against Bedeze and Tannin unless they have some awesome thought-out tactic to take him down and even then I see it as far-fetched. Bedeze can redirect his attacks through the holes but most likely due to Rizevim's intensive combat experience he's able to instantly react and dodge Bedeze's attacks. And he's able to easily block Tannin's attacks. Even Sairaorg was able to dodge the attacks coming from Bedeze's holes. And Rizevim is way more experienced than Sairaorg. Even if they could beat Rizevim then it would be very hard for them I believe. And with Rizevim, I think Tannin's attacks would be no problem for him. Perhaps if Tannin went Outrage.

EDIT: And Tannin is Ultimate-class. It said that he was Maou-class in terms of raw power. Now if he was truly Satan-class, no offense but he shouldn't have lost to Rudiger Rosenkreutz so many times. And should have been in the Top 3 in the Rating Games and should have at least beaten Diehauser even once. In terms of raw power, he's Maou-class. Think about it like this, Sun Wukong said that Issei's and Vali's attacks could reduce him to ash if he got hit by them. So does that make Issei god-class or does that mean he's god-class in terms of raw power? Because even if his attacks are that powerful it means nothing if he can't hit his opponent with his attacks.

[DragonOsman]

Then Tannin should've been at least low-tier Ultimate-class as a Dragon King. And the Queen Piece boosted him up to Maou-class. Interesting. But this means Ise survived training on the mountains with a Maou-class Dragon Devil chasing him around trying to kill him. No wonder he got so strong.

Edit: One post late.
@Lucidrago: True, but again, we don't really even know what Tannin can really do. We've never seen him fight. All we know is that he can use Outrage and Dragon-breath.

[vietthai96]

1. I think Maou-class and Satan-class are the same, Maou mean Demon King in Japanese it equal to
the word "Satan"
2. If you don't have enough power rival your enemy, use your skill to make up for the gap. There are many case prove that. Rudiger Rosenkreutz winning again Tannin because i think he have more skills as a magician that filling the gap in term of raw power between him and Tannin, and some trick up his sleeve(human is very famous in term of cunning ). Beside Tannin is not a technique-type dragon, most Dragon rely on their raw power. Even Cao Cao can fighting both Azazel and Vali whose is superior in term of raw power than him, and Azazel and Vali both are speed-type fighter

[DragonOsman]

I know that Satan-class and Maou-class are the same thing. Why would you think I didn't know that?

On the rest, I guess you're mostly right. But the fact that Dragons rely on their raw power and aren't Technique-type is partially incorrect. Look at Vritra and Apophis. It's just that most Dragon rely mainly on raw power. There are exceptions to every rule. Tannin is most likely a Power-type, though.

[Lucidrago]

Well we use Satan-class and Maou-class interchangeably. They're the same thing.

And plus it just said in terms of pure power, Tannin was Maou/Satan-class. For example, we can say in terms of pure speed Kiba is Maou/Satan-class. Doesn't make him Maou/Satan-class overall. And Tannin is a power-type. Dragons are like every other species where each one of them vary. Is every devil a wizard-type that relies on use of their demonic powers? We have Vritra who's very versatile because of his numerous abilities. And Apophis.

And with Rudiger him winning against Tannin had less to do with his abilities as a magician, but more as his abilities as a tactician and strategist and intensive research of his opponents. There's a reason even Diehauser even fears his tactics.

And if Tannin was Satan-class overall, then Rudiger Rosenkreutz would have been in the Top 5. Because only Diehauser, Roygun, and Bedeze were stated to be Satan-class. It only said that Tannin was Satan-class in terms of pure power.

[DragonOsman]

I think someone who's Maou-class in terms of pure power can still become a Maou, especially if they can use that power to defeat all kinds of Technique-types (which can happen if a Power-type is strong enough). Look at Strada for example. Ultimate Power-type and original wielder of Durandal. Technique-types are nothing in front of him. Strada and Cristaldi have tons of experience considering their age, but Tannin is also really old.

[vietthai96]

While Tannin is a wise Dragon but he lack some unique abilities. Rudiger Rosenkreutz is a magician so he have plenty spell to counter a dragon(and even other supernatural race) combine with his strategy make him a dangerous opponent, because the series don't show case much of Rudiger Rosenkreutz power, we don't know much about his pure magical power so i think he is atleast average Ultimate-Class Devil

Well, experience will convert into skill, so in the end Strada have more skill than Kiba or Xenovia because of his experience. You can close the gap by your intelligent but i doubt about Kiba and Xenovia are smart-type. Issei is example, he is a stupid guy but sometime he can come up with good strategy because of his experience in fighting and training with the someone stronger than him. But well there a two type of being smart, Sona is excel in analyzing her opponent, prepare a battle strategy beforehand and command in the back but i doubt she good at quick-solving problem in the middle of a heat/fast-pace battle like Azazel, Vali or Cao Cao, Ajuka

Most of nowaday people's issue in power comparison is responsible by the past anime like Dragon Ball Z and Sailor Moon with the concept that is you want to defeat your enemy, just powering up or transform into the next level; your power level is higher than your opponent mean you instantly win =.=!. That make them always debate, argue about the thing that is that guy is weaker why the hell he/she defeat the one stronger, and thought that is unlogical and bullshit and they don't know that there are many factors are playing in a battle

[DragonOsman]

Most Dragons are mainly power-oriented in fights, so they focus more on raw power, and I think Ddraig, Albion and Tannin are good examples of that (but Albion also has some Technique, like the Wyverns (that's originally Albion's thing and Ise has it because of the jewel he got from Vali's armor)). But there are also those like Vritra and Apophis who are more about tactics and technique (even though Apophis is on the same level as Ddraig in terms of pure power). But that being said, we haven't really seen Tannin fight that much and therefore we don't know much about what he can really do.

I agree with you on your second and third paragraphs.

Ise got a nosebleed from straining his brain too much when he commanded his comrades in Kyoto (on the top of the train, when they were in the other dimension). But I don't think he's really as dumb as he thinks. If he was, he wouldn't be able to come up with strategies that are any good at all. But the fact remains that his brain isn't good enough for Rating Game strategies. He'll have to leave that to Ravel and any other servants he gets that are good at strategizing.

[Lucidrago]

Actually Kiba has more skill than either Vasco or Xenovia because he's a technique-type. Vasco Strada had more experience and was a better swordsman. Those that are technique-types are better in skill. And just because someone's a power-type doesn't mean they don't have any technique. And Issei isn't stupid, but it strains him to think of overcomplicated things during battle. Fighting for himself and coming up with something to defeat tne opponent is one thing. But having to actually take command of the peerage and come up with a battle plan for them is a whole other ballpark. It wasn't extraordinary or anything, just average but it was a start. Remember that Issei had never gotten lessons in these things. While high-class devils of noble birth like Rias and Sona were taught these things most likely since they were young. So Issei is on his own. Sure he can get advice, but Issei is more of a practical guy. Sure he won't be able to think of some overly complicated tactics or strategies for Rating Games, but that's what he has Ravel for. It's not necessary for the leader to be the one making the tactics and strategies. Although it is a lot of stress just putting that on Ravel's shoulders alone although she is very capable. Anyone can strategize. I bet high-class devils of noble origin are taught basic tactics and strategies of Rating Games and all that. But to be a brilliant tactician and strategist like Sona and Rudiger Rosenkreutz? You have to go above and beyond. Most high-class devils mainly rely on their strength and the strength of their servants and have basic tactics and strategies.

[DragonOsman]

I know that there are Power-types that also have Technique. Ise has the Wyverns and the way uses his Dragon Shot, though he's more of a Power + Support-type with a bit of Technique added.

On what you said about High-class Devils like Sona and Rias being taught basic tactics and stuff from a young age, yeah, I think you're right there. It'd be good if Ise got some quick lessons on that at some point as well, though as you said, he's more of a practical guy that comes up with stuff on the fly. Only for his own individual fights and some real-battle situation plans for his comrades and himself, though. He'll need more experience to be able to come up with strategies for Rating Games.

It's also true, though, that the more you use your brain, the better it gets (your brain, I mean). Ise should try to exercise his brain like that. In Kyoto, when he came up with those plans in that other dimension, he got a nosebleed from too much mental effort. I'm worried about that. After tests in Kuou Academy as well, he always ends up all burned out with his head on his desk (though he gets good marks on all tests and final exams). Not good. He needs more mental exercise.

[Lucidrago]

Yeah mental exercise would be good. Although he won't be good at using his mind like Sona or Rudiger Rosenkreutz. But the thing with Issei is that he is very simplistic. He hasn't had a lot of situations where he has needed to use his mind for. And not to mention Issei isn't really talented when it comes to using his mind. Not saying he's stupid and that he doesn't use his mind. But he's really lacking compared to others.

[Tbolt]

To many people have said that Technique will beat Power which in it self is false, its true if you just go in swinging but power used at the right time and place will always beat Technique.

[Lucidrago]

Well it depends but Technique-types have a natural advantage over Power-types. Again depends on who we're talking about. For example Sairaorg in Breakdown the Beast vs Bedeze Abbadon. And you saying that power used at the right time and place will always beat Technique is the same as saying that Technique always beats Power. And just because someone is a Power-type doesn't mean they can't come up with a good plan in mind to beat a Technique-type. It's just that Technique-types use their minds a lot more when it comes to battle and use varying abilities like counter and rely on skill and technique. While Power-types mainly spam powerful attacks that can one-shot most opponents if they hit and basically just attack and defend and are mainly just straightforward when it comes to battles. No tricks, no skillful maneuvers. Well at least when compared to Technique-types who incorporate that into the way they fight mainly. While you'll see a power-type using few techniques or only using technique when they really need it. So all-in-all, due to the varying nature of technique-types they have a natural advantage over power-types. With technique-types, you'll always on your toes about what they're going to think of and what abilities they have and what masterful control they have over their abilities. The main thing to worry about with power-types is getting hit by their OP attacks.