[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[crazysjd89]

I'm going to post a stupid little theory I thought of.

Spoiler for Episode 6:

This theory is an alternate to Shkanon, but it can also be done simultaneously with it (if there is an unknown person on the island), and that can actually make some parts of it more plausible.

First I want to point out how weird Episode 6 really is. If you read the whole story, it might not occur to you, but if you take out all the meta world scenes, and pretend they never happened, it is very very strange.

1.) The killings never happened until Erika killed everyone. We did not hear of the gold being discovered. And if the Epitaph isn't solved, it seems strange that Beatrice wouldn't kill anyone, especially over something as trivial as a guest's rudeness.

2.) Battler was 'saved'. You might not think about this with the meta world scenes, but why was Battler 'saved'? If they wanted to keep tricking Erika, then switching out is completely pointless. Battler could have hid just as well as Kanon. If it was because Battler knew Erika was killing the other first twilight victims and planned on killing him, he would have just broken the seal and left.



Well, to go ahead and say my theory it's that Erika is Beatrice is Jessica.

Why this fits with my first point is obvious. It means the killings 'were' being carried out.

On the second point, Battler ran out, possibly realizing Erika was killing, he met Kanon. Kanon came in, and reset the chain, and talked to 'Erika' (Jessica) to calm her down. This explanation can be gotten with the 'love' hint.


There are also several small points that might be hints to this (Or I'm reading way to much into it).

Right before Battler and Beato shoot Erika, they have a conversation, but this conversation seems more like a couple who are parting ways.
"Are you sure?" "Yes."
"I'm glad I met you, Battler-san."
"Let's pull the final trigger together."

Also, Erika's blood is described as turning into gold petals, and Erika 'finished' the epitaph ceremony.


Erika was also once hurt by love, so having someone return who did break her heart (assuming the reason Jessica became Beatrice was because Battler suddenly disappeared.) might be enough to trigger her to do this. If this goes with Shkanon, then Jessica's pain is further, because the person who she loves will be moving off the island and marrying someone else.


Also, Jessica dodged a bullet and could be allowed to be outside the cousin's room. At first she was going to be in the next room over, where her name would have been said. But according to Erika she wanted to be in the cousin's room with Krauss. And Erika convinced him to allow it. This allowed her to be piled in with 'everyone else' instead of her name being called.


There's also Erika's 'execute' TIP. It says there is no evidence to prove she was ever on the island. Erika reaching the island in the first place is a miracle. Reaching the island twice would be of incalculable odds, unless 'Erika reaching the island' is a set rule for all the Kakera.


To cross reference a TIP from Higurashi, they say that multiple personalities can be formed as an escape from reality. Erika is pretty much how Natsuhi and Krauss want Jessica to act. So it's possible that Jessica made this personality to please them.


The detective authority Erika from Episode 5 can be explained in several ways as being Jessica without violating Knox's rules (I think it would be fair). But there's also the possibility that the Episode 5 Erika was a 'miracle' where Erika actually made it onto the island and survived.


If you think that 'Erika makes it onto the island' is a rule, then it's possible that, in Episode 6, and perhaps other episodes, Jessica found her, and killed her and pushed her back in the ocean, 'taking' her personality, or putting her own personality to her.


That's about all I can think of at the moment. Not particularly concrete evidence at all though and it's very likely there are things I forgot that contradict this.

[Judoh]

I think there are an equal amount of hints about Jessica being the other Battler along the same lines, whom Kanon can rescue intentionally if that's the case. Of course the Jessica of 6 years ago was called "bossy" by Battler so I can't deny Erika is a younger version of her or something.

[crazysjd89]

Well, originally it was just Beatrice, but then I found some hints that might lead to Jessica, so I put her name in there. It can technically work for any of the other people on the island, it's just that I saw it more likely to be Jessica.

But you're right. The hints pointing at Jessica are very small and very circumstancal.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by crazysjd89

But you're right. The hints pointing at Jessica are very small and very circumstancal.

I was definitely not calling the hints small. The hints for Jessica having some importance like this is actually plentiful enough to be convincing to me. What I was saying was that Jessica = Asumu's Battler and Jessica = Erika have equal value as a narrative in Ep6 and they follow the same logic in your theory.

[Solicitous_Beatrice]

I’ve never posted on here before, but I’ve noticed no one’s mentioned anything about the information that Fufur and Zepar mentioned when Shannon and Kanon were about to start their duel.

Spoiler for Kyrie:

How they explain how the number 19 is appropriate for their duel.
1) The illusion of a 19th person (This one is sort of trivial to the point)
2) The number of years needed to create the tale
3) The number of years it took to reach that day
4) The true age of the territory lord of the world
I’m not sure if this was proposed before, but don’t those numbers sort of connect to Kyrie? I mean, Battler is 18 years old and Asumu and Kyrie were pregnant at the same time and even had the same due dates. Women are generally pregnant for about 9 months, give or take a week or two. You could round those 18 years and 9 months to about 19 years (or you could assume that the leftover 3 months were the months that Asumu and Rudolf were getting serious/messing around most before she got pregnant). Maybe this was the “birth” of the territory lord (I’m assuming it’s “Beatrice”, but I could be wrong).

However, after Asumu died and Kyrie and Rudolf were back together, Battler became a constant reminder of Asumu to Kyrie(which probably caused her to stress about the past, also this was 6 years before ) until Battler moved to Asumu’s grandparents. She probably went back to normal emotionally, but probably festered over the thought that symbolized Rudolf’s and Asumu’s marriage/love/sexual relationships was still around. Maybe she fantasized about destroying the last thing that reminded her of Asumu and losing Rudolf, or even his whole family since Ange is never brought to Rokkenjima on the day of the mass murder. I think the fantasy stayed a fantasy until Battler began to live with her and Rudolf. I think this triggered her to stress and think about her murderous fantasy until the day of the murders came. I mean, she did talk about murdering Asumu if Asumu hadn’t died. I wouldn’t hold it pasted her. Plus, Kyrie seems like the calmest person on the island during the murders. I think she could coolly plan out murders and have a backup plan. She is the only other one that puts things in terms of chess and other games (which Beatrice also refers to the murders as games).

I also think that Battler’s sin related to Kyrie most. His sin to her could simply be the constant reminder of a reunion that should have never happened and that his whole existence is a sin or his rejection of her being his stepmother/mother, but the sin became larger when Battler moved away from to his grandparents because his father married Kyrie. I know this would definitely hurt a lot of step-parents.

TL;DR: The murders are basically a delusion(or well thought out plan) of the envious Kyrie who began to fantasize about the murder of the Ushiromiya family because of Battler’s birth, his rejection of accepting her as a step-mother, Rudolf cheating on her and choosing Asumu over her, and Battler coming back into Kyrie’s life.

Then again, I’m probably wrong.D:

[Raiza Sunozaki]

Originally Posted by Solicitous_Beatrice

I’ve never posted on here before, but I’ve noticed no one’s mentioned anything about the information that Fufur and Zepar mentioned when Shannon and Kanon were about to start their duel.

Spoiler for Kyrie:

How they explain how the number 19 is appropriate for their duel.
1) The illusion of a 19th person (This one is sort of trivial to the point)
2) The number of years needed to create the tale
3) The number of years it took to reach that day
4) The true age of the territory lord of the world
I’m not sure if this was proposed before, but don’t those numbers sort of connect to Kyrie? I mean, Battler is 18 years old and Asumu and Kyrie were pregnant at the same time and even had the same due dates. Women are generally pregnant for about 9 months, give or take a week or two. You could round those 18 years and 9 months to about 19 years (or you could assume that the leftover 3 months were the months that Asumu and Rudolf were getting serious/messing around most before she got pregnant). Maybe this was the “birth” of the territory lord (I’m assuming it’s “Beatrice”, but I could be wrong).

However, after Asumu died and Kyrie and Rudolf were back together, Battler became a constant reminder of Asumu to Kyrie(which probably caused her to stress about the past, also this was 6 years before ) until Battler moved to Asumu’s grandparents. She probably went back to normal emotionally, but probably festered over the thought that symbolized Rudolf’s and Asumu’s marriage/love/sexual relationships was still around. Maybe she fantasized about destroying the last thing that reminded her of Asumu and losing Rudolf, or even his whole family since Ange is never brought to Rokkenjima on the day of the mass murder. I think the fantasy stayed a fantasy until Battler began to live with her and Rudolf. I think this triggered her to stress and think about her murderous fantasy until the day of the murders came. I mean, she did talk about murdering Asumu if Asumu hadn’t died. I wouldn’t hold it pasted her. Plus, Kyrie seems like the calmest person on the island during the murders. I think she could coolly plan out murders and have a backup plan. She is the only other one that puts things in terms of chess and other games (which Beatrice also refers to the murders as games).

I also think that Battler’s sin related to Kyrie most. His sin to her could simply be the constant reminder of a reunion that should have never happened and that his whole existence is a sin or his rejection of her being his stepmother/mother, but the sin became larger when Battler moved away from to his grandparents because his father married Kyrie. I know this would definitely hurt a lot of step-parents.

TL;DR: The murders are basically a delusion(or well thought out plan) of the envious Kyrie who began to fantasize about the murder of the Ushiromiya family because of Battler’s birth, his rejection of accepting her as a step-mother, Rudolf cheating on her and choosing Asumu over her, and Battler coming back into Kyrie’s life.

Then again, I’m probably wrong.D:

You haven't been looking hard enough. We've covered it several times, though you're the only one I remember who linked it to Kyrie.
Still, I don't think Kyrie has the ability to kill off several people on Rokkenjima, mainly Rudolf. There's never any evidence that Kyrie would have any inclination to kill Rudolf. She has forgiven him for being such a womanizing dick in his youth, after all. Same goes for Battler. With Asumu dead, she no longer has any reason full on loathe Battler, though I do think she has mentioned that sometimes he reminds her too much of Asumu.
Kyrie, to me, seems completely motiveless, aside from why you could pin it on all the other adults (monetary needs, selecting their child as the next head, etc.). She's a very calm and rational person, and she has nothing to gain from murdering a family such as the Ushiromiya.

Unrelated, but after reading Episode 6, I've been able to clear my head a bit and think seriously about somethings. I think we've been looking at this a bit the wrong way. It's a bit hypocritical after what I wrote above, but I get the feeling solving the usual riddles of the mystery genre: the who dunnit, how dunnit and why dunnit, isn't the main theme of Umineko. After all, like Erika said, there are an infinite number of truths for this story, each one probably pinning the blame of the culprit on a different assortment of characters and scenarios.
More important to me, from reading Episode 6, is understanding Beato, who she is and why she acted the way she did. Thanks to Battler's Sin, Moetrice and Ange, we've got a somewhat loose answer to these questions, but there's still somethings that don't allow us to completely know the answer, as well as important details which still evade us.

[LuckySovietStar]

TL;DR: The murders are basically a delusion(or well thought out plan) of the envious Kyrie who began to fantasize about the murder of the Ushiromiya family because of Battler’s birth, his rejection of accepting her as a step-mother, Rudolf cheating on her and choosing Asumu over her, and Battler coming back into Kyrie’s life.

Hm, then Battler's sin is "Not calling Kyrie mother"? Well...that conversation "what kind of girl I prefer" sounded like something they would talk about.

[Solicitous_Beatrice]

Originally Posted by LuckySovietStar

Hm, then Battler's sin is "Not calling Kyrie mother"? Well...that conversation "what kind of girl I prefer" sounded like something they would talk about.

No. His sin is rejecting her as a step-parent while being ignorant of the past(even though he was a child at the time. Even adults can hold grudges against children)

From what I understand, Battler was so upset that Rudolf re-married so quickly, that he seemed to dislike Kyrie and rejected her as a step-mother. From personal experience, this sometimes really bothers a step-parent if they're rejected so quickly and if the step-parent tries to be friendly with the step-child that they're not too fond of. Kyrie comes across to me as the type of person to pin up a negative emotion until it's too late, but because of her cool, rational, and intelligent personality, she could effective carry out her plans.

I'm only assuming she's the most hurt by Battler's existence because she thinks he's Asumu's child, not to mention Kyrie seems to still have a major grudge/envy against her even after she won Rudolf. Some people can be crazier than hell but have a nice, calm composure. *shrugs*

But I'm probably wrong and everything that happens on the island is actually magic .

[LuckySovietStar]

His sin is rejecting her as a step-parent

Well I just tried to say it in more poetic way, sorry . I know what you are talking about, I have personal experience in this matter too.
So, without rejecting her, there is a chance that Kyrie would stop accumulating all these negative emotions-->not end up crazy enough to kill, yes?
I wonder, is acting towards Battler friendly "magic" on her part?

[DgBarca]

Wait wait waiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit.
EP5 Red Truth :
'Kinzo doesn't exist'
Kinzo does not exist anywhere outside Natsuhi's room!
<= My face right now
Does the word "exist" is the same in both sentences in the Japanese version ?

Natshui's room doesn't exist or what ?

[Renall]

I'm pretty sure her room exists. Remember, "Kinzo" in ep5 is constructed to mean "a living Kinzo." A living Kinzo does not exist anywhere, because he isn't alive.

[Klashikari]

No, you didn't understand the situation.
The thing is Erika and Bern used a false logic contrapositive.
They know Kinzo is dead, but for the sake of cornering Natsuhi in her lie, they started from the premise that Kinzo is alive.

Thus, they used the red to make look like Kinzo has to be in Natsuhi's room.
The following red,Kinzo does not exist anywhere outside Natsuhi's room! , doesn't mean that Kinzo exist in Natsuhi's room.
It is like saying: there are 3 rooms, there is no chair in room 1. there is no chair in room 2. By this, you think there is a chair in room 3. But that's an assumption only if you are "certain" there is at least a chair in one of the 3 rooms.

Back in this situation, because of the red, Natsuhi has no choice but to admit Kinzo is dead.
Even if Bern and Erika know it is wrong, they are holding the red truth themselves. Thus, they do not have any obligation to reveal the "whole" truth.

[DgBarca]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

No, you didn't understand the situation.
The thing is Erika and Bern used a false logic contrapositive.
They know Kinzo is dead, but for the sake of cornering Natsuhi in her lie, they started from the premise that Kinzo is alive.

Thus, they used the red to make look like Kinzo has to be in Natsuhi's room.
The following red,Kinzo does not exist anywhere outside Natsuhi's room! , doesn't mean that Kinzo exist in Natsuhi's room.
It is like saying: there are 3 rooms, there is no chair in room 1. there is no chair in room 2. By this, you think there is a chair in room 3. But that's an assumption only if you are "certain" there is at least a chair in one of the 3 rooms.

Back in this situation, because of the red, Natsuhi has no choice but to admit Kinzo is dead.
Even if Bern and Erika know it is wrong, they are holding the red truth themselves. Thus, they do not have any obligation to reveal the "whole" truth.

So...for EP6...Kanon does not exist inside the guest room....could it be that Kanon just...died ?

[Renall]

Well, he had to enter the guest room, but after that yes, he can die and thus cease to be in the room without leaving. That's one theory.

[DgBarca]

Originally Posted by Renall

Well, he had to enter the guest room, but after that yes, he can die and thus cease to be in the room without leaving. That's one theory.

Then Erika could have killed Kanon. As she didn't have her detective authority at that point, her PoV is not objective.

[LuckySovietStar]

But his body would be still here. And she said something like, talk about location of bodies.

[Renall]

But Beatrice didn't. And Beatrice is the one stating the red.

[Solicitous_Beatrice]

Originally Posted by LuckySovietStar

Well I just tried to say it in more poetic way, sorry . I know what you are talking about, I have personal experience in this matter too.
So, without rejecting her, there is a chance that Kyrie would stop accumulating all these negative emotions-->not end up crazy enough to kill, yes?
I wonder, is acting towards Battler friendly "magic" on her part?

It's alright. I just wanted to make sure my point was clear.

That's what I'm thinking. I'm only drawing this from that one scene in Dawn when Kyrie tells Jessica about her past with Rudolf and her envy of Asumu. Kyrie seemed to feel intensely about her past even though she "won" Rudolf in the end. I know from personal experience that even "winning" in the end doesn't remove those feelings of resentment from the competition in an emotional fight.

Actually, I don't think her negative feelings would stop accumulating, but the rate that the feelings built up might have slowed down a little bit. I just think the straw that broke the camel's back was Battler's return from his grandparents house to live with Kyrie and Rudolf.

It'd be like:

Losing the the guy you liked to some stupid airhead> then getting the guy you wanted after years of waiting but he has a child that reminds you of that girl you lost him to at first> that kid doesn't like you because you got married too quickly> You begin to resent the brat because it's "her" child> The child rejects you and doesn't even try to like you> The child leaves and you're happy> You start your own family and are happy> that bratty child comes back and reminds you of the pain of trying to get the guy you wanted.


I wouldn't say it's magic that Kyrie and Battler are friendly towards each other, I think Kyrie just trying to be nice to him because he doesn't know the past well, but still resents him because he reminds her of Asumu.

:x I wish there was a shorter way to explain it.

I just want to believe that everything that happens in the game is actually magic.;-;

[DgBarca]

Ho...did anyone notice that Ange says that "Beato died at the end" ?
And the ????...

Beatrice died just after the wedding ? How manly for Battler

How...and...for Shkanon...I hate to admit it...but all those hint are awful...But...does anyone solved Maria last "riddle" on the book ? The thing with glasses and money...
If the solution is to stack glasses...then super Shkanon hint of hell.

[Jan-Poo]

Yes it was solved it's easy. You just stack the glasses.

But what about Beato? I don't remember that. Unless you are talking about the start of the episode, which doesn't really tell us anything new


BTW how come no one ever commented the phone call between Amakusa and Okonogi?