Shingeki no Kyojin (Attack on Titan) - World and Technology

[NoemiChan]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

.... you can't throw that with an arrow.

How about Ballistas and Trebuchet?

Images

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

Don't tell me their technology just jumped from arrows to guns and cannons?

[JamJackEvo]

Originally Posted by GenjiChan

If only the Dardanelles Cannon was introduced... maybe...

HO. LY. CRAP!!!

[yankky5]

Originally Posted by GenjiChan

Lead us the way... You first!!!!

Then make a path like 100 miles. If I'm going down I'd rather descimate 20 mil radius along with me with the Tsar bomba Nhahahahaha >: D

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by GenjiChan

How about Ballistas and Trebuchet?

Images

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

That could work, but it would be as efficient as using cannons in the end.

Bow and arrows have the advantage of mobility, so a soldier with 3d gear can move behind the titans to attack their weak spot.

weapons as huge as trebuchets and ballista would be a lot harder to maneuver and they would be unable to escape as soon as titans get near, which is why cannons are mounted on walls for the most part.

So in the end if you need a weapon that big, you might just keep using cannons instead.

[JamJackEvo]

I'm pretty sure ballistas are more effective in open warfare, in plains. Using these in a city or a forest wouldn't be as much use due to the obstacles in the way.

[yankky5]

Originally Posted by JamJackEvo

HO. LY. CRAP!!!

DOnt be fooled that that thing has a rate of fire like 1 per day

[NoemiChan]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

So in the end if you need a weapon that big, you might just keep using cannons instead.

Well, compared to the cannon.. even if they regenerate.. they got them poles stucked on them if not they're impaled on the spot making them slower... besides they're for defending the gates.... Luckily to poke that 50 meter Titan's eye.... Lols

Originally Posted by yankky5

DOnt be fooled that that thing has a rate of fire like 1 per day

You just removed the excitement in the guys' mind...

[totoum]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

T
That's fine and dandy. But that's no reason for manga readers to abuse fans who try to suggest other tactics that could have worked and should have existed had the mangaka bothered to think things through more thoroughly.

Except manga readers know something you don't which makes a huge case as to why arrows likely wouldn't work,of course they can't mention it because of spoilers.

That being said I can understand the argument that manga readers should maybe stay out of the conversation and let the anime justify itself.

[yankky5]

Originally Posted by GenjiChan

How about Ballistas and Trebuchet?

Images

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

Don't tell me their technology just jumped from arrows to guns and cannons?

Originally Posted by GenjiChan

Well, compared to the cannon.. even if they regenerate.. they got them stucked on them if not they're impaled on the spot... besides they're for defending the gates.... Luckily to poke a Titan's eye.... Lols



You just removed the excitement in the guys' mind...

Here's a tip that thing is one big pain in the ass move you know :/

[NoemiChan]

Originally Posted by yankky5

Here's a tip that thing is one big pain in the ass move you know :/

I think the people in that series are pretty smart to figure things out...

[JamJackEvo]

Originally Posted by totoum

Except manga readers know something you don't which makes a huge case as to why arrows likely wouldn't work,of course they can't mention it because of spoilers.

That being said I can understand the argument that manga readers should maybe stay out of the conversation and let the anime justify itself.

I'm pretty sure it'd be damn frustrating for the manga readers as well, because the debate has already taken up a few pages in this thread (after relocating from the Episode 5 Discussion thread), and the only thing needed to justify the "Arrows, no good; Swords, so good" argument is to state a spoiler, and there they are locked in a damn conundrum. To spoil or not to spoil. If it were me, I'd be a little mad that I can't end the argument quick so we can move on to better and friendlier topics about the world setting.

Well, that or they'll go get the popcorn and watch silently as the debate escalates.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by GenjiChan

Well, compared to the cannon.. even if they regenerate.. they got them poles stucked on them if not they're impaled on the spot making them slower... besides they're for defending the gates.... Luckily to poke that 50 meter Titan's eye.... Lols

Impaling them with several large arrows? Well that would be a thing that would work well to hinder the titans, provided they are sturdy enough so that the titans won't be able to break them, but what kind of material would you use for that?

The advantage here over the cannons, is that the projectiles would remain on the titans' bodies, so that even if they don't kill them, they'll still have permanent effects.

However they wouldn't be more effective at killing the titans than cannons. You'd still need to send melee soldiers to finish them off.

Still better than fighting titans free to move I guess...

[TinyRedLeaf]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

We know that they have gunpowder though, and that they refined the technique enough to create effective cannons and muskets at the very least.

That is enough to create explosives but JamJackEvo makes a good point that those might not be good enough to create effective explosives.

That's what I find highly doubtful. The kinetic energy produced by an explosion powerful enough to propel cannonballs should be relatively simple to adapt into a high-explosive round. It doesn't take a massive leap of imagination to join the dots. We're talking about incremental steps of development here, not a complete revolution in firearms technology.

Even if that were not the case, it's highly debatable that soldiers armed with twin blades could generate enough momentum to slash through titan flesh, even if they were swinging around on their 3DMG. I know that calculations have proffered earlier but, seriously, they look bogus to me. Unless there is a ballistics engineer on the forum who can convince me otherwise, I find it incredibly hard to believe that firearms can't replicate the amount of kinetic energy produced by fast-swinging soldiers. How many Gs do people think they are pulling, to be able to outmatch the destructive power of a speeding cannonball?

The trick, of course, is speed and accuracy. These are the only factors that weigh down gunpowder weapons in anti-titan combat. So, the question isn't really whether explosives or firearms can do sufficient damage, but more about whether they can hit the titans' weak spots precisely.

My earlier query still stands: I see no glaring reason why combined arms tactics couldn't have been implemented to increase the soldiers' survival rate. I'm fine with the idea that individual soldiers are required to play the role of precision-strike weapons. But there are very few good reasons why artillery couldn't have been used to soften the targets sufficiently for soldiers to strike with minimum risk to themselves.

[NoemiChan]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Still better than fighting titans free to move I guess...

You got my reason...

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

That's what I find highly doubtful. The kinetic energy produced by an explosion powerful enough to propel cannonballs should be relatively simple to adapt into a high-explosive round. It doesn't take a massive leap of imagination to join the dots. We're talking about incremental steps of development here, not a complete revolution in firearms technology.

Even if that were not the case, it's highly debatable that soldiers armed with twin blades could generate enough momentum to slash through titan flesh, even if they were swinging around on their 3DMG. I know that calculations have proffered earlier but, seriously, they look bogus to me. Unless there is a ballistics engineer on the forum who can convince me otherwise, I find it incredibly hard to believe that firearms can't replicate the amount of kinetic energy produced by fast-swinging soldiers. How many Gs do people think they are pulling, to be able to outmatch the destructive power of a speeding cannonball?

The trick, of course, is speed and accuracy. These are the only factors that weigh down gunpowder weapons in anti-titan combat. So, the question isn't really whether explosives or firearms can do sufficient damage, but more about whether they can hit the titans' weak spots precisely.

My earlier query still stands: I see no glaring reason why combined arms tactics couldn't have been implemented to increase the soldiers' survival rate. I'm fine with the idea that individual soldiers are required to play the role of precision-strike weapons. But there are very few good reasons why artillery couldn't have been used to soften the targets sufficiently for soldiers to strike with minimum risk to themselves.

Don't get me wrong I agree with that, but it is a fact that gunpowder is not an explosive as effective as TNT or C4.

So you need to reason about how much quantity of gunpowder you'd need to create an explosive strong enough to destroy a titan's nape.

You can't simply think that it would be something as big as dynamite, because dynamite wasn't invented if not much later than cannons, and it's a whole new technology.

Clearly an explosive made with gunpowder would be bigger. How bigger, I don't know, but I don't expect it to be small enough to be thrown easily.

[yankky5]

This weapon dellema would all be solved if someone just invented a gun that looks and act like the m79

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M79_grenade_launcher

Ahh found it the gun that they need is grenade launching, breach loading version of the blunderbuss shot gun

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blunderbuss

[NoemiChan]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Don't get me wrong I agree with that, but it is a fact that gunpowder is not an explosive as effective as TNT or C4.

So you need to reason about how much quantity of gunpowder you'd need to create an explosive strong enough to destroy a titan's nape.

You can't simply think that it would be something as big as dynamite, because dynamite wasn't invented if not much later than cannons, and it's a whole new technology.

Clearly an explosive made with gunpowder would be bigger. How bigger, I don't know, but I don't expect it to be small enough to be thrown easily.

I'm not sure but there is a "delayed fuse" cannon ball right? They could hit a Titan with a cannon like a gun then explodes after seconds?

[TinyRedLeaf]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Clearly an explosive made with gunpowder would be bigger. How bigger, I don't know, but I don't expect it to be small enough to be thrown easily.

True, gunpowder is not as destructive as TNT, but it is powerful enough to shoot cannon rounds that can blow off the heads of titans. That much is clear from Ep5. In contrast, we don't see soldiers aiming to decapitate titans.

Who knows? Maybe they can, but that certainly doesn't seem to be their goal during training. I'll go with the simpler answer: the soldiers aren't nearly strong enough to match the destructive power of firearms and artillery.

Now, imagine a more effective use of the cannons to weaken the titans by shooting off legs or arms, before the meelee units swoop in for the kill. Realistically, that should be the kind of drill a competent military would use against titans.

Sure, I'll concede tghat no matter how much I wish, I can't change the fact that such tactics are not used in the story. I can attempt to rationalise the omission by pointing out that the military is obviously incompetent and inexperienced in warfare. Perhaps, as the story progresses, the soldiers will create and adapt tactics at a much faster pace. After all, necessity is the mother of all invention and grim necessity should presumably give them even greater incentive to innovate.

I can do all kinds of rationalisation and more. But this doesn't mean I'm going to give the mangaka a free pass. He didn't do his homework thoroughly. That's plain for many people to see. Still, as I've said, it's an easy "flaw" to forgive.

After all, mediaeval spider-men vs titans are so much more exciting to watch than the same-old, same-old gun-fu re-enacted ad nauseum in countless Hollywood productions.

[totoum]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

I can attempt to rationalise the omission by pointing out that the military is obviously incompetent and inexperienced in warfare. Perhaps, as the story progresses, the soldiers will create and adapt tactics at a much faster pace.

I'd also like to remind that we actually havn't seen how the Recon troops operate yet,they're the ones who specialize in fighting titans.

[eplipswich]

Originally Posted by totoum

I'd also like to remind that we actually havn't seen how the Recon troops operate yet,they're the ones who specialize in fighting titans.

Or so we think. Remember how a guy from the Recon Troops in Episode 1 said they fail to learn anything about the titans at all (and that many of the Recon troops died)?