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Old 2018-06-20, 21:00   Link #3081
GeassedbyLelouch
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vic-vic View Post
Lelouch in dead at the end the original anime series.
That's true, they've been saying that for 10 years, but some fans just don't want to accept that, or twist their words or claim they're "lying".
As if the official words that Lelouch isn't enough, code theory has already been fully debunked too. The anime itself contradicts it.
There are even interviews where they explain that Nunnally did not see any code visions ate the end, but code theorists just continue to ignore that.
https://www.reddit.com/r/CodeGeass/c..._code_theorys/
And now with teh movie coming out they even explained that Lelouch failed to geass his father, that Charles faked it. That means he didn't die, which means codes don't need to be activated.
https://www.reddit.com/r/CodeGeass/c...onfirmed_that/

Those 2 links are just a few examples of the big compilation post about Lelouch' death
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Old 2018-06-21, 03:36   Link #3082
Deim |Envy| Astaroth
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Lelouch’s death serves as a great ending for his character arc
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Old 2018-06-26, 22:22   Link #3083
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So, I finally watched the 2nd of the comp films. Regarding the changes made, I like them for the most part.

Tho, some did leave me thinking that they were better off leaving them untouched. For example, I like the fact that they removed that Nina lesbian sub-plot and toned down her craziness a bit. But on the other hand, I think they should've kept the FLEIJA dud scene instead of having her never appear in the battle at all. (I low key miss table-kun too. )

Also, regarding the part where they just sped through the beginning and middle parts of R2 (you know, the 1Mil Zeroes, the Chinese rebellion, the formation of the UFN and whatnot) are we supposed to treat it as though everything or mostly everything went down the same way it did in the original series?

To a new viewer who knew nothing about CG before going into these comps, that'll be hella confusing for them to grasp. I only understood it because I used my prior knowledge of the series to fill in the gaps when watching that scene.
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Old 2018-07-01, 08:47   Link #3084
devilo96
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Btw when will the bd for movie 3 is out? If im not wrong we must wait for 6 month after the realese date
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Old 2018-07-01, 16:20   Link #3085
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deim |Envy| Astaroth View Post
Lelouch’s death serves as a great ending for his character arc
That sounds kind of sad. Sacrifice meaning improvements has been even contradicted by Nadessico and the entire Kenshin franchise
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Old 2018-07-02, 00:38   Link #3086
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I think Shirley being alive is a good move. There, I said it, and I don't give a shit what everyone else thinks. lol
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Old 2018-07-02, 01:21   Link #3087
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
I think Shirley being alive is a good move. There, I said it, and I don't give a shit what everyone else thinks. lol
Crazy fanboys trigger, blasphemy she must die. XD

Well jokes aside to me keeping her alive or dead actually doesn't matter much. Her role is still pretty much non-existing besides as a girl who loves Lelouch for me.
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Old 2018-07-07, 07:46   Link #3088
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Quote:
Originally Posted by devilo96 View Post
Btw when will the bd for movie 3 is out? If im not wrong we must wait for 6 month after the realese date
4. Most likely September 28th. But maybe later.
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Old 2018-07-14, 10:16   Link #3089
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Well, from what I hear from interviews the third movie basically is a "alternate ending" which is supposed to lead to the new season. Basically, they seem to be saying the original series was intended to be the end of Lelouch's story at that time and they don't want to undo all that happened in that series. So the movie ending is basically an alternate take of the story. Think of it as AU I guess.
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Old 2018-07-14, 10:46   Link #3090
GeassedbyLelouch
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zalem View Post
Well, from what I hear from interviews the third movie basically is a "alternate ending" which is supposed to lead to the new season. Basically, they seem to be saying the original series was intended to be the end of Lelouch's story at that time and they don't want to undo all that happened in that series. So the movie ending is basically an alternate take of the story. Think of it as AU I guess.
That's not entirely accurate.
The ending of the movies was the same as the ending of R2: Lelouch dies.
The difference with the original series, which makes it an AU, is someone else's fate, not Lelouch's.

It is correct, though, that they didn't want to continue from R2 because they consider it a closed book, hence the AU.

Lelouch's death (as in actual, real death, no code, no immortality) in R2 has been confirmed many times by now, and from what can be seen in the movie, this is 100% the same, so he's truly dead at the end of the movies too. That's why the sequel is called Resurrection.
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Old 2018-07-14, 11:54   Link #3091
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Yup bd for movie 3 will out in september just another 2 month
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Old 2018-07-14, 16:31   Link #3092
MK-95-
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeassedbyLelouch View Post
That's not entirely accurate.
The ending of the movies was the same as the ending of R2: Lelouch dies.
The difference with the original series, which makes it an AU, is someone else's fate, not Lelouch's.

It is correct, though, that they didn't want to continue from R2 because they consider it a closed book, hence the AU.

Lelouch's death (as in actual, real death, no code, no immortality) in R2 has been confirmed many times by now, and from what can be seen in the movie, this is 100% the same, so he's truly dead at the end of the movies too. That's why the sequel is called Resurrection.
For the sake of discussion, I'd like to interject by saying they didn't have to go this route either. Things only went this way because they didn't want to alienate those who hold the original series as gospel and would refuse to accept anything new even if it were 10x better. In other words, these comp films are a safety net of sorts to ensure that they can please everyone.

The original series was handled in such an ambiguous way that they could've easily gone with the code theory and most would accept it on the basis that these theories have been floating around for years, but they didn't and instead, they decided to go with this route of having him die and more or less confirm it by implying that someone/something would revive him when he's needed again. Him dying may have been confirmed now, but that wasn't always the case. If it were, there wouldn't have been all of these rumours circulating on the net for literally a decade at this point.

Contrary to what I'm saying, I'm actually not displeased with the comps and I do enjoy them for the most part. I've only seen 2/3 so far tho, so my final thoughts/opinions will have to wait until I see the third part with comes in Sep.

I just take a small issue with the way you phrased Lelouch's death as absolutely confirmed in the original series. People have been telling me for years that his death was confirmed via this source and that source, yet when I ask for links to said sources, I get moot. Hell, even if you try googling it, the results are a shit show.

Now in a way, these comps finally confirm it after all this time, but there's still a valid counterargument that this newly established AU has no connection to the original series and for all we know, the code theory could hypothetically still be valid in that continuity.

Tl;Dr, Don't just write it off as Lelouch = dead just because the AU says so. That's their whole reason for establishing the AU in the first place as they don't want to interfere with that continuity. (Now, I'll kindly concede if one can link me absolutely undeniable proof that Lelouch died via interviews and other official sources, but well, we all know how that goes.)
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Old 2018-07-15, 15:17   Link #3093
GeassedbyLelouch
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MK-95- View Post
For the sake of discussion, I'd like to interject by saying they didn't have to go this route either. Things only went this way because they didn't want to alienate those who hold the original series as gospel and would refuse to accept anything new even if it were 10x better. In other words, these comp films are a safety net of sorts to ensure that they can please everyone.
There may be truth in that, but they have said several times before that R2's ending was their sense of aesthetics, their moral code, for them Lelouch's death was absolute and something they didn't want to tamper with.
So while there may have been safety net motivations, there's definitely the reason that they themselves really did not want to change R2

Quote:
Originally Posted by MK-95- View Post
The original series was handled in such an ambiguous way that they could've easily gone with the code theory
Sorry to come across as blunt, but that's incorrect.
Code theory is only plausible at first glance but falls apart under scrutiny.
Code theory violates the lore of the anime itself and as such it was always impossible for Lelouch to have a code. Code theory consists of 2 sorts of arguments: those contradicted directly the anime (such as codes needing activation) and those which are completely detached from the anime's canon lore because there's never any mention or precedent to root the wild assumption on (such as Lelouch being a special case which allwos having both a code and a geass).

If you wish to go over the full evaluation of code theory, I recommend this reddit post. (part 2, part 1 is a compilation of all the official statements that confirm Lelouch is dead)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MK-95- View Post
and most would accept it on the basis that these theories have been floating around for years,
That is true, but only for the English speking fandom. In the Japanese fandom code theory is only followed by a tiny minority and it is hardly ever discussed.
Even so, popularity of a fan theory is no measure for its veracity, as the anime itself contradicts code theory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MK-95- View Post
Him dying may have been confirmed now, but that wasn't always the case.
Again not true.
They've been repeating for 10 years that Lelouch is dead, they've never said or insinuated anything else.

The official guide book very explicitly explains that Lelouch is dead: "For those two who bear the heavy sin known as killing their fathers, they share the belief that they can forgive each other by imposing the greatest punishments on themselves. Death for Lelouch who wishes for a tomorrow with his sister, life for Suzaku who wishes to atone for his sins through death."
Source

They even remade the epilogue for the ZR movie blu-ray (2009!) because the original hay cart scene was being misunderstood by some. They dropped that scene and replaced it with a new scene where C.C. narrates to the audience, explicitly stating that Lelouch is dead, that she mourns him and that she comforts herself with the thought that he died accomplishing his goals.
Her exact words: "A young man dies. He had the power to change the world, to create a new order. The world feared him, hated him. But, I know he died with a smile on his face. Only those who have realised their dream will truly understand that feeling of utter contentment. So, this is not a tragedy. And whenever I feel sad or cry at night, I sing a song. A song of man's making. Zero Requiem!"
You can watch the new epilogue here.

There's even an interview from 2009 which already explicitly denies a core point of code theory: Nunnally's alleged "visions". They explain she saw nothing, that there was no code or geass involved, and that her understanding her brother was all her own doing. So no code visions and no seeing memories.
The interview was in Mook Animedia (28 January 2009, p.89-90), here are 2 pictures
Q: "How did Nunnally managed to realize Lelouch true intention, when she touched his hand at the end?"
Staff member K: "The way Nunnally can tell that someone is lying, just like she was able to tell that Lohmeyer was lying to her, is that she can feel the hand of the person she is talking to is sweating or lightly trembling. It's nothing like Geass or some special ability like that."
Staff member Y: "Yes. So, she simply came to conclusion [Lelouch was lying] by herself, because of this ability."
Staff member K: "She is Marianne's daughter and Lelouch's little sister. Two months have passed since that defeat of Schneizel and for this two months she's been wondering constantly about what had happened, like "why it happened?" and so on. So when she touched Lelouch's hand at the end she felt that he is calm, she put the two and two together and realized the truth. Of course, we know that in anime, it's hard to explain things like that, but yeah, please accept it like this kind of romantic idea we had."

My point being, they were very clear about Lelouch's death from the very beginning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MK-95- View Post
If it were, there wouldn't have been all of these rumours circulating on the net for literally a decade at this point.
Pure typical fan denial of when a beloved character dies.
It's a normal reaction of a fandom.
There's theories for all of the beloved characters that die on Game of Thrones for example. Even when we see him getting decapitated on screen, there's still people clinging to an idea that he's still alive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MK-95- View Post
I just take a small issue with the way you phrased Lelouch's death as absolutely confirmed in the original series.
It is, though.
Code theory has always been an illusion which was debunked by the anime itself.
It completely falls apart under scrutiny.
Read the reddit post I linked earlier.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MK-95- View Post
People have been telling me for years that his death was confirmed via this source and that source, yet when I ask for links to said sources, I get moot.
You should have asked me!
There is pleeeeeenty of sources.
You want more than the ones I posted above?
Here's recent tweets about how they decided that Lelouch had to die, it was one of the very first decisions they made for the show. The tweets are recent and are about shedding lighjt on the production process from 10 years ago, called "Geass Memories"

- "Before I started writing the story of a person called Lelouch, I confirmed with Taniguchi-director something. That thing was that the end of Lelouch will be DEATH."
- "At least he is aware of his sins and pays for them with his DEATH. This is mine and Taniguchi-director' sense of ethics in our works."
- "This man called Lelouch will pay for his sins by his DEATH. The story follows him till he finally make this decision."
- "Probably this Lelouch we see in the first episode of the series wouldn't choose DEATH. He would try something to avoid it. He couldn't DIE, for Nunnally as well. But we see him changed in the last episode."

Link to the tweets: https://twitter.com/ichirou_o/status/998739675895365633
A screenshot of the tweets: https://imgur.com/a/2dxGMFX
The translation of the tweets: https://imgur.com/a/HoF6xhX

If you want sources, links and pictures of interviews and such, read the reddit post I mentioned. Part 1 is all about that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MK-95- View Post
Hell, even if you try googling it, the results are a shit show.
Because of the massive propaganda push the code theory had.
People who believed Lelouch to be dead were bullied, mocked, ridiculed, ...
I've personally even been threatened on youtube because I pointed out that Lelouch was officially confirmed dead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MK-95- View Post
but there's still a valid counterargument that this newly established AU has no connection to the original series and for all we know, the code theory could hypothetically still be valid in that continuity.
I know people who've seen the last movie, and I've read a whooole bunch of reactions to it.
The 3rd movie still has the exact same Zero Requiem and Lelouch still dies. Combined with the fact that the rules for codes and geasses didn't change make it impossible for Lelouch to have the code in the AU
In the original series, this impossibility has been proven years ago.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MK-95- View Post
(Now, I'll kindly concede if one can link me absolutely undeniable proof that Lelouch died via interviews and other official sources, but well, we all know how that goes.)
That would make you one of the most reasonable people who I've debated with about this subject.
I hope the links and sources above are sufficient. It's more than 1
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Old 2018-07-15, 16:26   Link #3094
MK-95-
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Brilliantly done. As promised, I'll kindly concede.

Tho, I'd just like to say that some of the character poems and character quotes are cryptic and make poor examples for this type of debate. They aren't decisive proof that confirms Lelouch's death. (Not like they were needed anyway since you can pretty much shut most people down with those tweets alone.)

Where were you when I was debating this with people 4-5 years ago? (on other forums, haven't discussed this particular topic on AS) You'd have saved me a lot time time.

Not gonna lie, this is a hard pill to swallow, but it's right here in front of me. I'll at least take my L with stride. No sense in being a sore loser on top of that when there's so much proof to back up your points. Some of the stuff in the reddit post is a little suspect, but as previously noted, those tweets are more than enough to prove otherwise.
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Old 2018-07-15, 18:53   Link #3095
GeassedbyLelouch
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Originally Posted by MK-95- View Post
Brilliantly done. As promised, I'll kindly concede.
Thank you!
It's refreshing to meet a man of his word online. It's a rarity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MK-95- View Post
Tho, I'd just like to say that some of the character poems and character quotes are cryptic and make poor examples for this type of debate. They aren't decisive proof that confirms Lelouch's death. (Not like they were needed anyway since you can pretty much shut most people down with those tweets alone.)
True enough.
But those old, more poetic statements by the show staff still serve a function. They show that Lelouch's death is not something which was "retconned" recently, but instead is something which was always part of the true canon.

Also, a single of those more poetic statements might perhaps be dismissed as vague, but when they're all put together it's hard not to admit they all do tell the exact same story and that it's really implausible to every time twist their words in "what they reeeaaally mean is ..."


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Originally Posted by MK-95- View Post
Where were you when I was debating this with people 4-5 years ago? (on other forums, haven't discussed this particular topic on AS) You'd have saved me a lot time time.
Ah sorry.
Back then I had the idea that it was harmless to let people believe whatever they wanted even if the show itself and Word of God contradicted their headcanon. The show was done, fan debates would have no impact on the future of the franchise.
Then everything changed when the Fire Nation attacked, I mean when they announced the sequel.
The code conspiracy theorists grew more aggressive and toxic, claiming that this was proof they had been right all long (even though the very title of the sequel verrry strongly suggested that Lelouch was dead)
Seeing how hostile these people could be and knowing that Word of God had been saying for years that Lelouch was dead and that the sequel's title fitted perfectly with those official statements, I grew worried about the possible damage that side of the fandom could do. There's 1000s and 1000s of people who are 100% convinced that code theory is the absolute canon fact because that's what they were told online, and all those people will be very very frustrated, disappointed and confused when they see dead Lelouch at the start of the sequel, and some of those will most likely get very aggressive and toxic and vent their rage on the show creators, as seems to be in fashion right now (Star Wars, Darling in the Franxx, etc), saying that the the anime' canon was betrayed.
So it dawned on me that people adamantly believing in their non-canon headcanons COULD be harmfull, both towards the fandom as towards the show itself.

I wish I had had the foresight to anticipate the possibility of a sequel, I would have done all of this a lot sooner and possibly reduce the risk of a violent backlash against the show staff

Quote:
Originally Posted by MK-95- View Post
Not gonna lie, this is a hard pill to swallow, but it's right here in front of me. I'll at least take my L with stride. No sense in being a sore loser on top of that when there's so much proof to back up your points. Some of the stuff in the reddit post is a little suspect, but as previously noted, those tweets are more than enough to prove otherwise.
You have a very rational approach, I respect that!

Out of curiosity, which parts of the big reddit post came across as suspect?

Also, could I ask you to stop the spread of disinformation and tell people about this whenever you see someone say that Lelouch is alive or has the code? You could link to the reddit post, or even just to the tweets if you wish.
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Old 2018-07-16, 13:00   Link #3096
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My knowledge of the reddit post is limited to parts 1 and 2-2.1 only as those are what you recommended I read. So, what I'm about to say is confined specifically to that.

But basically, while there's no denying the tweets, interviews and to a lesser extent, the official guidebook, the posting of dialogue between characters, character quotes and interpretations of symbolism from scenes from the TV series itself is a poor argument as I previously noted.

As you've said, maybe putting it all together may lead one to the conclusion that "this is what they meant or was going for", but this was done by summing up all of that along with the character poems and other similar material that was included in box sets, collectors' editions, CDs, etc... and wasn't even present in the TV anime. For the average/casual CG fan, they wouldn't have access to or even be aware of these, so using the dialogue from within the TV series itself is a poor argument imo considering that you'd need to couple it with bonus material to make a compelling argument.

Because of how cryptic/vague dialogue and scenes sometimes tended to be in the TV anime, both sides of the fandom were given a lot of freedom with regard to interpretation and could manipulate the information in any way they see fit. The biggest indicator of this being these very theories that have persisted for a decade. Had they not beat around the bush and outright just represent things the way they were meant to be be represented, then this current situation may not even exist to begin with. (tho by the same token, this vagueness is what kept CG as popular as it is in the first place, so when scrutinized as a marketing tactic used to preserve interest in the franchise, this was a huge payoff for Sunrise. Had they kept it black and white, the franchise may have quickly lost steam after it ended, so I do understand the need for presenting it the way they did.)

To sum everything up neatly, the suspect information in the reddit post is the interpretation of character dialogue and symbolism in scenes from the TV anime itself. Simply put, both factions of the fandom can make use of this information to support either argument. Even more simply put, the information presented in the post was at best speculation from the poster's own interpretation of the scenes/dialogue. (The real deciding factor in it all was as noted, the information from interviews and tweets which is undeniable proof that comes directly from staff that worked on the series as there's no room for debate there.)

--------------
Sure, I've no problem with sharing this info with people. I mean, I've spent the last 5 or so years believing a theory that just got debunked before my very eyes, so...
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Old 2018-07-16, 13:36   Link #3097
GeassedbyLelouch
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I see.
Well, the quotes from the anime itself were included to show that the interpretations the code theorists give to things are not the only possible interpretations as so many often claim.
On top of that I often meet people who downright refuse to accept the statements by the writers "because their words weren't in the anime". According to them only what was literally said in the anime counts. (Ironically, the core assumptions of both code theories, codes needing activation and the possibility of having both a geass and a code, were never mentioned or shown in the anime either)
And then there's even people who claim that "the creators are wrong", "the creators don't matter" or even that "the creators are lying". These people believe they have a higher authority to declare what is canon and what not than the writers of the show!!
So, that's why I include a bunch of anime quotes which support what the show staff have said so many times.
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Old 2018-07-17, 20:09   Link #3098
Mad Pierrot
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Have you checked these illustrations?

https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/int...-merch/.134339
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Old 2018-07-18, 00:26   Link #3099
konart
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8 years ago, yeah...
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Old 2018-07-18, 23:54   Link #3100
darthfury78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeassedbyLelouch View Post
I see.
Well, the quotes from the anime itself were included to show that the interpretations the code theorists give to things are not the only possible interpretations as so many often claim.
On top of that I often meet people who downright refuse to accept the statements by the writers "because their words weren't in the anime". According to them only what was literally said in the anime counts. (Ironically, the core assumptions of both code theories, codes needing activation and the possibility of having both a geass and a code, were never mentioned or shown in the anime either)
And then there's even people who claim that "the creators are wrong", "the creators don't matter" or even that "the creators are lying". These people believe they have a higher authority to declare what is canon and what not than the writers of the show!!
So, that's why I include a bunch of anime quotes which support what the show staff have said so many times.
I am happy to see that there's activity on this forum once again. I do agree that Lelouch is dead because it's the only way for him to escape imprisonment. It's basically the immortal soul making its escape from the physical realm...

We'll see how the third movie unfolds as well as the upcoming R3 series...
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