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Old 2018-07-15, 04:12   Link #21
Haak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenzen12 View Post
Except concept of Game Isekai comes from Log Horizon and got popularised by such as Overlord and Deathmarch. SAO has no direct and very little indirect involvement. With otherworldians using game-like interfaced.
Sword Art Online: 2009
Log Horizon: 2011
Overlord: 2012
Death March: 2013

[EDIT]

I get that SAO isn't technically an Isekai but it's not really that much of stretch to go from "Trapped in a fantasy-like game" to "Trapped in a game-like fantasy". Someone at some point may have been the first one to make that leap, but i'd still say SAO is the biggest influence. Also there's more to modern isekai than just the game element. There's also the bullshit escapism and male powered fantasy part of it and it's not difficult to see that coming from SAO as well (although SAO wasn't as bad with it). I only watched the first episode of Log Horizon so i don't really know anything about it but none of that BS ever came across to me in the first episode, though granted none of that BS became apparent in SAO either until later on. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on that.
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Old 2018-07-15, 07:17   Link #22
dragon1412
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Originally Posted by wuhugm View Post
Mushoku Tensei is actually not so influential in the world building of isekai genre

Most isekai has RPG mechanics (STATS, SKILLS, ETC), this is SAO influence, none of that system is in Mushoku or older isekai anime

Also the most cancerous part of isekai, Wish Fulfillment and Power Fantasy, is also the embodiment of Kirito, once again not the influence of Mushoku with it's MC's Rudeus being not so OP
No, the issues of RPG mechanics was kind of there on the start. What really set is the image of Isekai and it's following world building. Look at MT, MT have magic with the whole ranking, the dungeon delving and adventurer, reincarnation and practice early, later academy and Rudeus being OP in the school arc, this is what set the template. MT simply well written is not saying that it's not in the template, if anything, MT was the root of template.

When it come to world building and game system, SAO is actually quite well thought out. We see that in SAO the status is not even shown and less reliance on the system rather than the skill of players itself. Kirito is OP, but not Rudeus OP. SAO simply have lower upper ceiling compare to MT. In MT, the school arc portraited the OPness of MT in it's highest height, with Rudeus is practically invincible compare to normal humans, he doesn't seem as OP as Kirito simply because the ceiling is much higher. Purely by world building and battle scene, i rate MT far below SAO.

Game + Isekai is LH reponsibility, like the above said, it also what cause the genre of players being vastly superior to original inhabitants.
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Old 2018-07-15, 07:59   Link #23
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Who'd have thought my OP would lead to such talks?
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Old 2018-07-15, 08:28   Link #24
wuhugm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Sword Art Online: 2009
Log Horizon: 2011
Overlord: 2012
Death March: 2013

[EDIT]

I get that SAO isn't technically an Isekai but it's not really that much of stretch to go from "Trapped in a fantasy-like game" to "Trapped in a game-like fantasy". Someone at some point may have been the first one to make that leap, but i'd still say SAO is the biggest influence. Also there's more to modern isekai than just the game element. There's also the bullshit escapism and male powered fantasy part of it and it's not difficult to see that coming from SAO as well (although SAO wasn't as bad with it). I only watched the first episode of Log Horizon so i don't really know anything about it but none of that BS ever came across to me in the first episode, though granted none of that BS became apparent in SAO either until later on. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on that.
Basically this

Quote:
Originally Posted by dragon1412 View Post
No, the issues of RPG mechanics was kind of there on the start. What really set is the image of Isekai and it's following world building. Look at MT, MT have magic with the whole ranking, the dungeon delving and adventurer, reincarnation and practice early, later academy and Rudeus being OP in the school arc, this is what set the template. MT simply well written is not saying that it's not in the template, if anything, MT was the root of template.

When it come to world building and game system, SAO is actually quite well thought out. We see that in SAO the status is not even shown and less reliance on the system rather than the skill of players itself. Kirito is OP, but not Rudeus OP. SAO simply have lower upper ceiling compare to MT. In MT, the school arc portraited the OPness of MT in it's highest height, with Rudeus is practically invincible compare to normal humans, he doesn't seem as OP as Kirito simply because the ceiling is much higher. Purely by world building and battle scene, i rate MT far below SAO.

Game + Isekai is LH reponsibility, like the above said, it also what cause the genre of players being vastly superior to original inhabitants.
Basically there are 2 templates for Isekai

- Isekai Meikyuu de Dorei Harem wo (Teleported + RPG/Game Mechanics)
- Mushoku Tensei (Reincarnated)

The former has more incarnations
Simply because Mushoku Tensei is superbly written and not anyone can replicate it's greatness
Meanwhile, Slave Harem in the Labyrinth of the Other World is a complete shit of literature
Yet, it's very popular in spite of that

But these 2 are inspired by SAO for the reason Haak said
What if instead of Fake Isekai (VR Game), we just go all the way with Real Isekai?
Isekai was there since Alice in Wonderland, but what resuscitated it perfectly was SAO
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Old 2018-07-15, 09:35   Link #25
Sixth
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Spoiler for True Innovation.:


Found this at reddit manga.
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Old 2018-07-15, 09:52   Link #26
dragon1412
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wuhugm View Post
Basically this



Basically there are 2 templates for Isekai

- Isekai Meikyuu de Dorei Harem wo (Teleported + RPG/Game Mechanics)
- Mushoku Tensei (Reincarnated)

The former has more incarnations
Simply because Mushoku Tensei is superbly written and not anyone can replicate it's greatness
Meanwhile, Slave Harem in the Labyrinth of the Other World is a complete shit of literature
Yet, it's very popular in spite of that

But these 2 are inspired by SAO for the reason Haak said
What if instead of Fake Isekai (VR Game), we just go all the way with Real Isekai?
Isekai was there since Alice in Wonderland, but what resuscitated it perfectly was SAO
I would partially agree, since in my eyes, SAO created the WN boom itself rather than genre, and the title that came in after that is what set the genre, like MT, isekai dorei,... The boom started with SAO, and when SAO is at it's peak, Mahouka and LH came, which turn the publisher eyes into WN market, in particular, Narou. And they took some of the top series, which turn out to be quite popular and sell well enough to keep invest on WN market. For example, Mahouka is actually quite popular, but less series copy after it like SAO, no, i'm not talking about OP MC but Isekai. As a matter of fact, Gendai series is relatively rare in Narou even now, SAO did have effect the WN sections and spawn copycat, but the main issues is that series run using Isekai template actually got their own success, which is why they spawn much more copycat. MT start the way, and during it's 1st year, a lot of Isekai WN actually got greenlit, which is the reason for the boom.
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Old 2018-07-15, 10:00   Link #27
Haak
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For the record, we keep talking about Mushoku Tensei but when did that come out again? Wikipedia says 2012 but there were Isekai even earlier than that: Outbreak Company (2011) and Gate (2010) spring to mind immediately. Sure, they weren't the "Truck-sama induced" variety of Isekai but still. In fact, Gate was being published as far back as 2006 apparently.
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Old 2018-07-15, 10:01   Link #28
Tenzen12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wuhugm View Post
Basically this



Basically there are 2 templates for Isekai

- Isekai Meikyuu de Dorei Harem wo (Teleported + RPG/Game Mechanics)
- Mushoku Tensei (Reincarnated)

The former has more incarnations
Simply because Mushoku Tensei is superbly written and not anyone can replicate it's greatness
Meanwhile, Slave Harem in the Labyrinth of the Other World is a complete shit of literature
Yet, it's very popular in spite of that

But these 2 are inspired by SAO for the reason Haak said
What if instead of Fake Isekai (VR Game), we just go all the way with Real Isekai?
Isekai was there since Alice in Wonderland, but what resuscitated it perfectly was SAO
There are also reincarnated + RPG and teleported without RPG. And again game isekai is LogHora as far as Isekai is concerned Noone cares about SAO (with exception of Kazanagi Shinogi, but that's it). SAO itself doesn't match any later developed isekai/Tensei template.

Basically there are three (Five) , templates

-LogHora (Overlord/Deathmarch)
-Shieldbro
-Mushouku
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Old 2018-07-15, 10:44   Link #29
dragon1412
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
For the record, we keep talking about Mushoku Tensei but when did that come out again? Wikipedia says 2012 but there were Isekai even earlier than that: Outbreak Company (2011) and Gate (2010) spring to mind immediately. Sure, they weren't the "Truck-sama induced" variety of Isekai but still. In fact, Gate was being published as far back as 2006 apparently.
Isekai was a thing even far long ago, Fushigi Yuugi was all the way back in 1992. What we are talking about is more of the specific template and the boom of said genre in story follow similar template;
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Old 2018-07-15, 10:48   Link #30
xrick
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Yep, that's what I intended from this thread.
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Old 2018-07-15, 10:50   Link #31
Haak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dragon1412 View Post
Isekai was a thing even far long ago, Fushigi Yuugi was all the way back in 1992. What we are talking about is more of the specific template and the boom of said genre in story follow similar template;
As am I? If SAO can be considered a legitimate origin I don't know why GATE or Outbreak Company can't. Is it not possible to acknowledge that both GATE and SAO had a combined effect? The two aren't mutually exclusive.
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Old 2018-07-15, 11:08   Link #32
Tenzen12
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GATE certainly have some effect by establishing niche sub-genre (modern weaponry vs Isekai), but it doesn't affect isekai genre at large.

SAO only effect is giving Mamare idea or courage go with new work and popularising Narou. But Isekai doesn't take elements from it.

Putting that aside I really think Tate Yuusha and Tsuyokute New Saga (even if this one isn't isekai) are worthy mentioning as important cornestones of genre too
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Old 2018-07-15, 12:04   Link #33
Haak
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GATE certainly have some effect by establishing niche sub-genre (modern weaponry vs Isekai), but it doesn't affect isekai genre at large.
I'd say it did more than that. It also established a mindset that just being a Japanese guy in the 21st century can make you enlightened and worthy of praise thanks to all the ordinary shit you know that the Isekai world doesn't and which just happens to coincidentally give you an advantage. Something I see far too often in Isekai generally. It's just that where as GATE uses it to praise the JSDF, the Isekai that followed it decided to race to the bottom and use it to praise the author self insert main character.

Quote:
SAO only effect is giving Mamare idea or courage go with new work and popularising Narou. But Isekai doesn't take elements from it.
So you're saying the above pic is just a coincidence?

I think it takes quite a few elements. Like I said, it's not big leap going from Western medieval fantasy-like game to Western medieval game-like fantasy and SAO did establish the "Kirito-archetype" of being a fucking badass with fucking OP stats slaying monsters and pussy alike. Modern Isekai didn't take a different template: It simply took the worst elements of SAO and dialled it up to eleven.

I'd say Mushoku Tensei established the "reincarnated into the Isekai by the force of God/Truck-sama" element as well as the idea of growing up in the Isekai from childhood/birth. A significant addition but no more so than what SAO and GATE gave.
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Old 2018-07-15, 14:11   Link #34
Tenzen12
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Mighty whitey (or in this case Yellowey) was always strong trope, I don't think Gate is one who popularized it, but I don't insist it's the case. You might be right.

Same with Kirito, popularity of non descriptive badass protagonist may or might not be something SAO made common , but it's certainly not something unique to tensei/isekai. On that account SAO is around as related to genre as LOTR, ie it affected it in same way, it affected everything else.

EDIT: After some thinking I dare say these pictures might be indeed "just concidence" after all. Tensei genre (where protagonist is human being,, that is) have usually blond/brown hair because pseudo europe, where isekai would obviouly go with "random japanese guy " design. I would go even so far to say that SAO just happen follow same logic as some of Isekai does, because, well it's fairly intuitive thing to do.
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Last edited by Tenzen12; 2018-07-15 at 15:01.
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Old 2018-07-15, 17:15   Link #35
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So which isekai is responsible for the trend of having the main character spend the first 10 chapters of the series drooling over all the various isekai foods? And then eventually inventing soy sauce and miso which absolutely everyone in the new world loves (probably SAO with Asuna)?
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Old 2018-07-15, 17:26   Link #36
xrick
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If I'm not mistaken, Gastronomy & Hygiene are deeply engrained into the Japanese Culture, so I can only guess people very into food inserted those elements into their stories...or else, Isekai Konyoku Monogatari wouldn't exist
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Old 2018-07-16, 00:06   Link #37
dragon1412
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
As am I? If SAO can be considered a legitimate origin I don't know why GATE or Outbreak Company can't. Is it not possible to acknowledge that both GATE and SAO had a combined effect? The two aren't mutually exclusive.
Because GATE is originally not a LN, but full blown novel format, see the original GATE books, SAO is more legitimate because SAO affect the entire of market of WN. Which GATE isn't. GATE also suffer from political issues that have to be toned down when it's got published, so GATE is far from the success that is SAO. If anything, GATE actually ride the wave that SAO cause when it got republished as LN.

In order for the books to set a template, the books must be a massive success, which GATE or OC isn't, GATE is not bad and is actually the most successful title of alphapolis, but it's sale and popularity is above average at best compare to the novels of LN industry. While at the same time SAO is at the very top, SAO boom happened because SAO succeeded. The same issues apply to OC, OC never make it as big as SAO was, which is why it doesn't set the standard. OC also suffer from the same issues as GATE, which is the story nature only drew a lesser audiences base.

The food trend, in my eyes is blamed on Souma, while food issues was there from the start, it get much worse when Souma introduced foodgasm.
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Old 2018-07-16, 00:33   Link #38
wuhugm
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^Basically what dragon said

As for food, the introduction of Japanese Food to make heroines wet for the MC can be found in Slave Harem in the Labyrinth of the Other World
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Old 2018-07-16, 10:35   Link #39
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The food trend, in my eyes is blamed on Souma, while food issues was there from the start, it get much worse when Souma introduced foodgasm.
Souma and not Yakitate Japan several years earlier?

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Originally Posted by wuhugm View Post
As for food, the introduction of Japanese Food to make heroines wet for the MC can be found in Slave Harem in the Labyrinth of the Other World
I've seen the title but vowed never to read it solely because of said title
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Old 2018-07-16, 13:14   Link #40
dragon1412
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Souma and not Yakitate Japan several years earlier?


I've seen the title but vowed never to read it solely because of said title
Yakitate was a joke, Souma was what introduced the foodgasm, the trend of describing ingredients and process definitely come from Souma rather than Yakitate, but if you talk about food purely, then it's been there for quite a while, ever since the famous Chuuka ichiban and the earlier age of cooking manga it was always a things, Souma simply make the it more detailed in recent light. It actually is quite troublesome to pin down the origin in this case, since it have so much variation, in 1 things, i'd say even LH is a culprit to a certain extent with food taste being an actual plot point. Many author choose food to give the books a SoL part in the case the story is heavily actions, plot oriented also played in it's case
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