[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 5 End of the golden witch

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Renall

3) Hideyoshi talks to himself very pointedly about the door being unlocked and closing the windows. He then cries loudly over George. But he should know that, as far as he's aware, George isn't really dead. It's all an act, put on for Natsuhi whom everyone knows will be hiding in the closet. No one was in the room with him. He wasn't attacked at all.

4) Nobody bothers to search the closet, and in fact they actively prevent Erika from doing so. They would never be so daft. They knew Natsuhi was in there from the start, but they didn't want to corner her yet.

How would they know about Natsuhi being in the closet. That would only work if the 19th man and the revenge plot is also part of the grand conspiracy scheme. But that call happens before Oct 4th and Erika isn't expected at the conference either.

As for Hideyoshi - how do we know he was crying about George. This is what we expect to happen because we think George is dead at that time, but when we find out he isn't there becomes no reason for Hideyoshi to cry. For that reason Hideyoshi could not be crying about George in the guest room. Unless he had found out somehow that George died, but we don't know when exactly the six people (including Krauss) died. We know for certain they're dead by midnight of October 5th, according to Bern's red text in the trial, but the time they die is not stated and their bodies are never found.

Kinzo's corpse is also weird. Normally they burn it in the boiler room, but Eva said she checked down there and it was said in red that he wasn't there either. Then again I think they only checked the basement, unless it's consider the same thing (I can't recall them ever even mentioning a basement in the mansion)

[LyricalAura]

From what Bern said, we know that Krauss died right after Natsuhi heard him on the phone (around 7am). The others were confirmed dead by Virgilia and Beato around 12:30pm, although only Battler heard that red.

[Marion]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

From what Bern said, we know that Krauss died right after Natsuhi heard him on the phone (around 7am). The others were confirmed dead by Virgilia and Beato around 12:30pm, although only Battler heard that red.

12:30pm huh? So about 30 minutes before Natsuhi was ordered to go into that closet. Still that makes the idea of George being the caller difficult, since the 'corpses' were discovered by Battler at 7am. Unless two people were making the calls or they were tape recorded. Although in the second instance they would have to record the voice of Krauss as well.

[ijriims]

Pay attention, the dimension where Virgilia said the death of the six was said to be devoid of concept of space and time, so the time she spoke the red truth could not be used to infer the time of death.

[Arachanox]

Originally Posted by ijriims

Pay attention, the dimension where Virgilia said the death of the six was said to be devoid of concept of space and time, so the time she spoke the red truth could not be used to infer the time of death.

Nice catch, and, screw you Ryukishi for going to such lengths to keep clues from us V_V"

[Altima of the Gates]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Secret passages are denied regardless of them being foreshadowed. There is a specific rules for them.



If the underground tunnel reaches the Mansion yes it works. The only problem is that there is no known entrance to that and that would make it a secret passage. Plus I don't know if that would qualify as part of the Mansion even if it was under it.

Let me see if I got something here: In Episode 4, we see the ladder with a hatch covering it that leads to Kuwadorian. Now in Ep. 5, Battler is seen messing sort of device (the scene where he thinks he saw Kinzo) (he mentions another part of the epitaph which I can't remember, one of the "gouge" parts), could he have found a way to open that hatch?

Also, the path that leads to the gold looks like some kind of subway tunnel, which can be interpreted as a "river" (from the epitaph) since subway tunnels have many arteries, and arteries let blood flow in the bloodstream, which is like a 'river.'

And... I lost track of what I was trying to prove.

[xxhiddenmoonlightxx]

the sound isn't playing when I open the game with the patch
When I open it normally there is no problem... T-T

And I just got up to Furudo Erika arriving... (Im slow I know)

[TTR]

I think a secret passage would be defined as an exit that violates either commandments 8 and 6. Either the reader isn't told about the passage until they solve "how dunnit" or the detective suddenly runs into a bookshelf, knocking it over and finding a secret door. Either that, or suddenly either his "years of experience" or "his sudden inkling" that a bookshelf should be moved and it reveals a hidden passage or something like that. However, if something else happens, like the detective notices scratch marks all over a wood floor indicating that the bookshelf was once moved this becomes a legitimate passage in that it's identity could be found by an ordinary person. I personally believe that ability to be found defines it as a secret passage and is a flexible rule.

To put it into context, whenever Battler would (I think he did) assume that a passage exists in a closed room scenario that he couldn't find (or could not be found, akin to Unknown Trap X), that would be a direct violation of the 3rd commandment. However, something like the passage to Kuwadorian could be defined as a legitimate passage because the Battler (I'm assuming he's detective in 1-4 and Erika is the detective in 5) finds it at the end of 4. Everyone comes out of it except the people that died in EP4 as they were escaping the cells in Kuwadorian.

TL;DR:
Intuition is defined as something that either experience or unstimulated thought brings upon. If there are no direct clues, i.e. scratches on the ground, peeling paint, something that would stimulate the idea that the area is movable, then it is solely intuition and is unfair to the reader, violating Knox commandments. However, having clues such as that one would use common sense to deduce that there is a passage, then it is fair game that both the detective and the reader would reach the same conclusion and thus make it fair for the reader. The hatch Kuwadorian clearly looks like a hatch, and looks like it would go somewhere. You can clearly see the ladder that goes down from it from past the bars.

[Knicknevin]

Originally Posted by Renall

You can't let on. Same reason Battler is arguing against her. If everybody just agreed, what would be the point? She might also start to catch on. It's also possible Battler got mad because he realized the real purpose of the "game" was to corner Natsuhi, and it stopped being fun once they started tormenting her.

The First Twilight cannot be real. It's simply not possible. Nobody's behavior makes any sense.

1) No one runs for the guns. They do this every time they have the opportunity (ep4 notwithstanding, and we don't KNOW what happened to the guns there). If they think there is a killer, they get something to defend themselves. All of the adults are alive, yet not one word is spoken of getting a weapon. Why? They believe they are in no danger.

2) They spend more time cornering Natsuhi than trying to figure out who killed everyone. Why would they specifically suspect Natsuhi at first? Why not suspect Battler's family first? Kyrie and Rudolf stand to gain the most. Not one time is any notion of their guilt suspected. That's because they're part of, or even organizing, the fake deaths and/or "game." No one suspects them because there's nobody really dead.

3) Hideyoshi talks to himself very pointedly about the door being unlocked and closing the windows. He then cries loudly over George. But he should know that, as far as he's aware, George isn't really dead. It's all an act, put on for Natsuhi whom everyone knows will be hiding in the closet. No one was in the room with him. He wasn't attacked at all.

4) Nobody bothers to search the closet, and in fact they actively prevent Erika from doing so. They would never be so daft. They knew Natsuhi was in there from the start, but they didn't want to corner her yet.

Originally Posted by Arachanox

Very intriguing. I also noticed that no one ran for the guns, but I didn't think anything beyond that. The whole theory is interesting, but are we so sure about the Second Twilight? Isn't that where things fall apart?

What caught my eyes most was the fact that neither Shannon nor Kanon expressed much remorse when they found out about George and Jessica's deaths. Even if the first twilight was an act, I wonder who all was acting? Eva seems pretty sincere with her emotions after George and Hideyoshi 'died'. If this was all an act put on either to trick a confession out of Natsuhi, or for Erika's benefit (or both), I'm not confident that the entire cast was in on it.

And someone kills off the victims sometime before midnight of the second day.

Hmm... at one point while Battler was boycotting the game, Virgilia described the Witches Game as 'not having any love'. And Battler himself pointed out that a constant theme in what Beatrice showed him was that 'Without love, it cannot be seen.', referring to the truth of this tale. If the game lacks love, it also lacks truth... Battler realizing that he and Beatrice love one another was what finally opened his eyes to the truth.

I wonder if dissecting the mysteries of Episode 5 is really constructive at all. I'm starting to doubt that the events on the game board in this episode are revealing much to us. The core of this game is solving the puzzle of Beato's mind and understanding what it is that she's trying to make Battler see.



... Earlier in this thread there was some mention of the Divine Comedy.

Originally Posted by Proto

It is an interesting read; although, in Erika's words, it would be boring if Battler's sin with Beato was the same Dante had with Beatrice, which simply was to never have the courage to confess his love. Bleh.

Hehehehe. Dante didn't just fail to confess his love to Beatrice.

He let her marry somebody else.

[imaginari]

Finished. I have to admit that this wasn't my favorite, although the second tea party made up for a lot.

I'm also leaning towards Genji for first twilight, if only because we've seen him use knives, but I can't really explain it yet.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by ijriims

Pay attention, the dimension where Virgilia said the death of the six was said to be devoid of concept of space and time, so the time she spoke the red truth could not be used to infer the time of death.

If that's true, then why did Virgilia even bother giving Battler that red? Everyone dies at the end of the game, so it's not a particularly useful piece of information to say that "these people die at some point, but I won't tell you when." Since it was a clue given only to Battler for the express purpose of helping him penetrate Lambda's game board, it has to have at least some utility.

On a related note, since Erika spent the whole night listening to Battler's breathing through the wall and apparently has perfect hearing, she should also have been able to hear the breathing of any other people in the room. She didn't hear anyone else, so maybe we can conclude that the victims had already left the room by the time Battler returned to the guesthouse. Erika didn't have the lounge under observation from 12-1am, so the victims might very well have completely left the building during that period, although hiding in another room on the 2nd floor would work too.

[Marion]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

On a related note, since Erika spent the whole night listening to Battler's breathing through the wall and apparently has perfect hearing, she should also have been able to hear the breathing of any other people in the room. She didn't hear anyone else, so maybe we can conclude that the victims had already left the room by the time Battler returned to the guesthouse. That would put them in one of the other rooms on the 2nd floor of the guesthouse at 3am, since they couldn't have come downstairs or climbed out a window without being detected.

But they were all there when Erika went into the room to investigate. Considering she's right next to the guest room I doubt they would all rush into the room right when Battler screamed and not be noticed by her. Then again she didn't appear until the adults did, since she was checking all the windows beforehand IIRC

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Marion

But they were all there when Erika went into the room to investigate. Considering she's right next to the guest room I doubt they would all rush into the room right when Battler screamed and not be noticed by her. Then again she didn't appear until the adults did, since she was checking all the windows beforehand IIRC

Weren't the "victims" completely wrapped in blankets by the time she arrived? They could have just been vaguely human-shaped lumps of bedding splashed with some red liquid. She didn't pay particularly close attention to them.

EDIT:
Something I misremembered... Although the cousins could have snuck out of the guesthouse between midnight and 1am, Rosa didn't get back until 1am. So at a minimum, she was confined to the second floor until 3am, although she could have left afterward.

[Marion]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

Weren't the "victims" completely wrapped in blankets by the time she arrived? They could have just been vaguely human-shaped lumps of bedding splashed with some red liquid. She didn't pay particularly close attention to them.

I think she would at least notice if it were the same people, what with her photographic memory and all. The victims were only covered up to their neck - the face was still visible.

[mizou]

a small question
how to know which chapter we're reading
I see some people says I'm playing the 11 chapter but how can they know that ?
thanks!
EDIT: Battler says that this is the first time he's speaking to Bern and 34
then the two witches didn't speak to him like we expected on the ???? of legend of the golden
but they talked to another person !

[Leinne]

Originally Posted by mizou

a small question
how to know which chapter we're reading
I see some people says I'm playing the 11 chapter but how can they know that ?
thanks!
EDIT: Battler says that this is the first time he's speaking to Bern and 34
then the two witches didn't speak to him like we expected on the ???? of legend of the golden
but they talked to another person !

1-These people have already finished and with the scenary jump can just check your chapter
2- Battler didn't have a meta-form conscient really, that's why no one sees him. In ep4 he mentions 'he think he had seen them somewhere but couldn't remember'
It was a tea party for the witches and till ep5 Battler couldn't get to the higher meta-plane

[ijriims]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

If that's true, then why did Virgilia even bother giving Battler that red? Everyone dies at the end of the game, so it's not a particularly useful piece of information to say that "these people die at some point, but I won't tell you when." Since it was a clue given only to Battler for the express purpose of helping him penetrate Lambda's game board, it has to have at least some utility.

On a related note, since Erika spent the whole night listening to Battler's breathing through the wall and apparently has perfect hearing, she should also have been able to hear the breathing of any other people in the room. She didn't hear anyone else, so maybe we can conclude that the victims had already left the room by the time Battler returned to the guesthouse. Erika didn't have the lounge under observation from 12-1am, so the victims might very well have completely left the building during that period, although hiding in another room on the 2nd floor would work too.

At least the utility from those two sentences of red text was that the fives suffered from wounds so gross that anyone could tell they were dead from one look. So they definitely did not die like Maria in EP4.

Bern's red texts only confirm their death, but not including the appearance of their bodies.

From an in-universe point of view, Virgilia said that because she did not know Bern or Lambda were going to confirm their death.

BTW, that scene was interesting since it was Meta-Virgilia talking piece-Beato, so that it showed that Meta-character could interact with piece-character and enter the piece-world directly.

-----------------------------------------------

Erika was an agent sent by Bern to accuse Natsuhi from the beginning. All she did for the whole episode was to eliminate all fantasies and make Natsuhi the only suspect. She would hide all facts or information in order to achieve that goal set by Bern, so even if she did hear Rosa, George, Jessica and Maria's breath after 3am, she would just not tell it, in order to incriminate Natsuhi.

SHe was not a detective seeking to find the truth, you know.

[Arkwright]

Well, better late than never.

Spoiler for initial thoughts:

Thoughts regarding episode 5.

Overall, I found this episode enjoyable. I'm not sure yet, but it's probably close to my favorite, simply because it was solid throughout and I didn't feel any particular weak sections.

It didn't have the emotional impact of episode 4, but it still had a number of good points. Especially in the beginning of episode 5, it reminded me considerably of episode 1, which is a plus for me because sometimes I have wished that the story read more like episode 1 where all the magic and comic relief elements had not been introduced yet.

Rather than drawn out scenes, the jokes were kept to simple off-comments, which makes sense because episode 5 was basically running at full narrative steam the whole way through and anything more would have thrown off the mood.

Also, Beatrice and her furniture as a whole took a back seat this time around. While I don't particularly hate them, Beatrice, Gaap, the stakes, and such can tend to make a certain atmosphere (I guess I would describe it as gaudy, a carnival mood) and I probably preferred how things felt without them around in episode 1. So, I think it was good to see things from a different perspective. Virgilia did have a sizeable visible role, as well as Ronove to an extent, and those are the more grounded characters on the witch side (Virgilia being my personal favorite of them, so it was good to see her once again as an active character.)

As for the new characters, I liked them more than I expected to.

Dlanor and co. in particular had a more meaningful role than the usual "magical troupes" introduced so far, and although their designs were a bit strange it didn't bother me too much.

Erika filled the role she was supposed to play, although it bugs me a bit that she talks about meta-world concepts in the actual game. In episode 4 it was suggested that "each instance of the game world has its own universe in which the future plays out based on the results in the game." So even though Rokkenjima is closed off, things that happen on the "game board" should make sense in terms of the real physical world. And yet, episode 5 makes it seem like the "game board" here is just a puppet show that can be freely manipulated without restriction. Unless the nature of the game board in episode 5 is different, it takes some work to justify some of Erika's statements and actions.

Similarly, we are not left with a real conclusion for the episode 5 gameboard - is this a relatively-good-end where Battler finally comes home to his sister? Or does everyone die anyway? In the case of the latter, among other things it would seem to point to "pay more attention to why Eva survived in episode 3" but in that case, why was the outcome left unclear?

However, I like the ambiguity that was left in Bernkastel's actions. Erika is supposed to accomplish something specific: be an ultra-paranoid nutcase who will take every measure to monitor her surroundings just because she can. So it initially seems Bernkastel takes on an antagonistic role, but the question remains just how much control she had over Battler's piece during the same timespan. We know that she embellished his actions at least once, and if she gave anywhere near as much consideration to his piece's actions as she did to Erika's or at least played them off each other towards some kind of goal, it could be possible that her objectives in the game were considerably less "evil" than they seem if it's just taken as "Erika's goal = Bernkastel's goal."

As for the mystery aspect of the story, considering how directly it was included in the story it didn't feel too obtrusive. A reversal of episode 4 where everyone died but the details were extremely ambiguous with all the red left until the end, this time nearly every detail was meticulously riddled with obstacles. I don't usually think too much about the theory aspect right away, so I haven't really considered how the details might interact with my thoughts, but some questions I was thinking of were answered/confirmed, making me more confident in the overall premise I've been working with.

For music, solid as usual - although I can't think of any in particular that jumped out, all of the new tracks were used well. I think a couple of the old tracks might have been used a bit more than might have been wise, but they were some of my favorites so I didn't mind too much.

Finally, I grew to like Natsuhi in episode 1 so the spotlight here is appreciated. Probably a considerable factor for my opinion of this episode is simply that the elements I preferred were fairly visible, and the other ones not as much. A simple reason, but it works.

Only thing missing was Ange - now that the number of people can change, I wonder if someone will bring the 6-year-old version to the game board in the future.

[ElderKain]

I just had my own Theory on what Knox's 5th Commandment is, lol.
Since in the Ep5 Arc, the actual use of the Knox's 5th was not not used.

ElderKain's Knox's 5th: The culprit cannot be of supernatural origin.

If the above is the case, it was purposely left out becasue if that was know, it would be instant win for Battler, and if that is the case as well, it works well with actual mysteries, like the "Hound of the Baskervilles" story on how it wasn't really a demon hound (supernatural creature) but just some trick from the culprit.
or like Scooby Doo Mysteries, lol.

If you take my Knox's 5th into consideration, it fits well with the other commandments.

[Proto]

The Knox commandments can only be used when explaining the crime from the mistery POV. If you are explaining it from a fantasy POV you are not restricted by those and can do whatever you want with your explanation. eg. Beatrice and Gaap create magical secret passages left and right during the whole game.