Claymore Manga - Japanese Version

[Anh_Minh]

And that's why I doubt she's become stronger since Luciera's awakening.

I think sealing her youki's made her weaker... but since she was strong to start with, she could afford it.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Yeah, but see, if her swordsmanship was good enough for a Number 2 spot before, I'm sure it was good enough to deal with the occasional random encounter without needing her to train like crazy.

Previously she would be training to get stronger to kill her sister. As for the 7 years, it would depend on why she choose to remain alive. Revenge on the org perhaps.

Originally Posted by kari-no-sugata

It would be nice to see that Raphaela is alive, if just to see how powerful she really is.

However, the Org think she's dead, so if she is still alive she must have left some pretty convincing evidence to make them think that. Creepy thought: she could have made her sister's corpse look like herself (I wonder how similar their facial features are?).

We only know that the Org told other claymores that Rafaela is dead. We really don't know what the Org believed. The Org could know that Rafaela is really alive but is choosing to keep this piece of info quiet because it would raise a lot questions why both #3 and #5 skip out on the Org at about the same time. It would raise questions the org probably doesn't want to answer or even get raise.

[SimplyEd]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

And that's why I doubt she's become stronger since Luciera's awakening.

I think sealing her youki's made her weaker... but since she was strong to start with, she could afford it.

It's thoroughly okay if we can come to a consent that she remains at least as powerful as she was back then.
Even at that stage she would still pose a dangerous opponent for most of the currently active Claymores. Excluding the afore mentioned individuals...mentioned way back, that is.

I won't push you to see it my way though^^

[Fenrir_valindri]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

And that's why I doubt she's become stronger since Luciera's awakening.

I think sealing her youki's made her weaker... but since she was strong to start with, she could afford it.

Clare and the others have sealed their Yoki as well, and I have no doubts that they are much stronger then before.

You have to remember Rafeala was not just "laying low" she was activaly looking for her sister by Rubel's comments, the only reason she rejoined in the first place was because Rubel offered up information on her sister.

Not to mention Rubel just arbitrarily decided to give her Rank 5, likely before Clare's generation was even done developing.

Keep in mind that Rubel also mentioned that Clare and Jean together stood no chance against her, and considering Rubel knowns (or implies he knows) that Clare took out Ophelia in awakened form, that is saying alot for Rafeala's sealed strength.

-

[Westlo]

Yeah that's right that Rubel just gave her rank 5 like it was nothing, I doubt Alicia, Beth, Galatea and Ophelia were even ready at that stage.

[kari-no-sugata]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

We only know that the Org told other claymores that Rafaela is dead. We really don't know what the Org believed. The Org could know that Rafaela is really alive but is choosing to keep this piece of info quiet because it would raise a lot questions why both #3 and #5 skip out on the Org at about the same time. It would raise questions the org probably doesn't want to answer or even get raise.

See page 140 of v12. Rubel says Rafaela is dead basically. That's an internal Org discussion not a ruse for the Claymores.

I'm not saying she is dead... just that the Org seem to think so. (Of course, they thought the Secret 7 were dead too...)

[G. Zeus]

Keep in mind that Rubel also mentioned that Clare and Jean together stood no chance against her, and considering Rubel knowns (or implies he knows) that Clare took out Ophelia in awakened form, that is saying alot for Rafeala's sealed strength.

Not to mention being ordered to take out former #2 Irene. It seems as if she were the unofficial executioner of the organization. Perhaps they were even hoping that she would succeed in eliminating Luciera.

I'm not saying she is dead... just that the Org seem to think so. (Of course, they thought the Secret 7 were dead too...)

For all of the org's "evilness", we really have to give them credit for being an optimistic bunch.

SEELE 01 (audio only): ZOMFG! Teresa's gone renegade!
SEELE 02 (audio only): Send out units 02 - 05! For great justice!
SEELE 03 (audio only): Umm, guys? Remember what happened last time we sent out a loli to battle?
SEELE 02 (audio only): Don't worry, this one's closer to being legal.

*Priscilla happens*

SEELE 01 (audio only): ZOMFG! Galatea's gone renegade!
SEELE 02 (audio only): Send out units 04 and 47! For great justice!
SEELE 03 (audio only): ......
SEELE 03 (audio only): What about Rafaela?
SEELE 02 (audio only): We've been giving her Linkin' Park albums to raise her emo level in preparation for suicide. She's probably dead by now.
SEELE 03 (audio only): And the 7 missing swords in Pieta?
SEELE 01 (audio only): She probably miscounted them. It's no surprise that Claris's mathematical skills are somewhat lacking since the 3 R's aren't part of Spartan training.
Rubel (as Gendo): But Miria was...
SEELE 02 (audio only): (covers ears) La-dee-da-dee-da, I can't hear you!
SEELE 01 (audio only): Worry not. Everything is going according to plan, as always.
SEELE 03 (audio only): Last time I heard that was before Luciera's test run.

*fixed numbers

[Fenrir_valindri]

You sir have just caused me to laugh my ass off, I could just see it now

and should be 4 and 47 btw :P

[khryoleoz]

Then it isn't that she has become stronger...only that she is no weaker than before. So the argument still isn't settled. From all that I've read, the rankings are not absolute measurements, but relative. We only know that in their generation, Raphaela = Luciera (pre-awakened) in power. But we are also shown that the power of each Claymore of a given rank within a given generation may vary to that of another of the same rank within another generation. They are also promoted and demoted. Luciera may = Raphaela, but Luciera may not be = to Teresa. And who knows how strong Teresa actually was. The gap between her and Irene may have been far, but it could very well have been that Teresa was only that much stronger so that Irene's actual strength may = the 1 and 2 of the previous generation. There just isn't enough information to make any necessary inferences that Raphaela is the strongest Claymore around at this moment. It could be that the reason Raphaela was given the rank of 5 upon reactivation may have been arbitrary. But that would make the rankings even more meaningless as an accurate measurement of a Claymore's abilities. Also, the gap between her and Miria may be wide because Miria is the one who's not as strong, not that because Raphaela is = to Alicia and Beth.

To make matters more complicated, what I do recall is that the org itself believes that Alicia and Beth are the strongest in the annals of Claymores. But this appears to be true only because Alicia can manage a 100% yoki output, which is an awakening. Yet I would say that at this state, she is on a completely different category altogether and no longer a Claymore if we are to make the distinctions between Claymores and Awakened beings seriously.

A little apologetics for Ophelia. It isn't equitable to say that Ophelia was a poor awakened being because she got her ass handed to her by a #47 who donned the arm of a former #2. Ophelia had sufferred from her misjudgements and overreactions when she realized she awoke. But after coming to her senses, it seems as though she had regained control of the fight and of her own volition threw it away to Clare. The event wherein we can measure Ophelia's Claymore abilities is in her fight with Irene, not with Clare.

[TinyRedLeaf]

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by kari-no-sugata

See page 140 of v12. Rubel says Rafaela is dead basically. That's an internal Org discussion not a ruse for the Claymores.

I'm not saying she is dead... just that the Org seem to think so. (Of course, they thought the Secret 7 were dead too...)

I just re-read both page140 in eng and Chi. And in both ver Rubul never states that Rafaela is dead.

Eng v2: Rubul "And with Rafaela gone now,"

Chinese: Rubul: "Without Rafaela at this point,"

Neither ver explicitly states Rafaela as dead.

[AieL]

in the latest chapter...

that miata girl (or watever her name was) is the pwnage! prolly the strongest claymore alive i THINK, excluding that twins which one of them went awakened state. even with the pills on her shes able to massacre yomas :O

[dutchman]

Browsing some other forums I came across a link to a nice MAD its short but it captures the mood of Claymore very well.

http://stage6.divx.com/Japanese-Mad-...re%5D-Craymore

[Fenrir_valindri]

Nice link, definatly worth watching.

Music was good and fit well, too bad I cant say the same for most of the anime series :P

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

Previously she would be training to get stronger to kill her sister. As for the 7 years, it would depend on why she choose to remain alive. Revenge on the org perhaps.

Maybe, but I don't think she was counting on pure fighting prowess to get her sister.

Originally Posted by SimplyEd

It's thoroughly okay if we can come to a consent that she remains at least as powerful as she was back then.
Even at that stage she would still pose a dangerous opponent for most of the currently active Claymores. Excluding the afore mentioned individuals...mentioned way back, that is.

As strong as she used to be? Certainly. Strongest Claymore alive? It's possible, but we just don't know.

Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri

Clare and the others have sealed their Yoki as well, and I have no doubts that they are much stronger then before.

Yes, but three things:

• they were able to train with each other. It's much more beneficial than training on one's own, and unlike with fighting, if it's too hard, you call it quits for a bit and try again later. You don't die.

• the Fab Four were half awakened. Even with their youki sealed, there must have been benefits in terms of physical feats.
• Raphaela used to be number 2. She must have been much, much closer to achieving her maximum potential than the Lucky 7. She must have been almost as strong as she could ever get.

You have to remember Rafeala was not just "laying low" she was activaly looking for her sister by Rubel's comments, the only reason she rejoined in the first place was because Rubel offered up information on her sister.

Yeah, but that's not the same as fighting all the time and getting better at it.

Not to mention Rubel just arbitrarily decided to give her Rank 5, likely before Clare's generation was even done developing.

Keep in mind that Rubel also mentioned that Clare and Jean together stood no chance against her, and considering Rubel knowns (or implies he knows) that Clare took out Ophelia in awakened form, that is saying alot for Rafeala's sealed strength.

-

He said she was "special". I think it meant she was specialised in fighting Claymores, which, against Clare and Jean, would give her more of an advantage than her number would indicate.

And nobody but Clare knows what happened to Ophelia, except that she awakened and died. I don't think the organisation can bring itself to believe number 47 could kill her single handedly.




edit:
Other subject entirely.
In the ep10 thread, Twisted Reality posted this:

Originally Posted by Twisted Reality

The Awakened Ones really only serves to convince me that there might be "Voracious Eaters," and that the so-called "fiction" might not be a fiction. If you're a Yoma who spend centuries eating the minds of prominent scholars, priests, military minds, politicians, merchants and the like, you could probably do some pretty scary things and learn a lot about yourself along the way. Some of the Yoma we've been shown did actually think and maybe not all of them are as arrogant as the Yoma and the one "Awakened One" we've met so far. And we've seen plenty of intelligent behavior in Yoma ---> (i.e. Yoma eating all the passerby through a completely infested village, all the Yoma agreeing to attack only surrounding villages, the Cathedral Yoma) Any creature that can steal your memories and pretend to be you and fool even your most intimate lover, has a killer ability to empathize with their prey and capacity for learning all your little human tricks.

Since I'm not sure what's spoiler or not anymore, I'll comment here.
Interesting idea.
And maybe those Voracious Eaters created the Claymores.

Spoiler for hellsing:

In Hellsing, Alucard explained at one point that the reason he hunted vampires was that if left unchecked, the vampires would turn everyone and they'd be left with nothing to eat (or rather, drink).

Maybe those Voracious Eaters looked at the world and thought "Too much competition. Not enough food. Let's do something about it."

It would beg the question of how they managed to not get found out by the Claymores. Maybe, in their wisdom, they found a way to avoid detection - the youki suppressing pills, maybe?

[stormy001_M1A2]

You know, this first time I see a Claymore fighting bare handed and the present no 4 is very impressive. I dunno about you guys, but I consider this girl as the strongest around.

Off course Raphaela killed an Abysmal One bare-handed, sister or not.

[Fenrir_valindri]

From what we have seen, ranks seem to ignore yoki release most of the time, it has always been clear if someone, say Ophelia, decided to fight Galatea and neither released there special abilities or release Yoma energy, Galatea would still win, and if Ophelia resorted to Yoma energy use, Galatea would probably only need her innate, non-yoki reliant, talents to defeat her.

Similar to how Teresa could defeat everyone below her without releasing Yoma energy at all (to use an extreme example)

Now going by this guideline, former #2 Rafaela should be able to beat almost anyone below her previous rank WITHOUT releasing Yoma energy, and not using Yoma energy at all has become a vast advantage for her regardless. People cannot even detect her AT ALL anymore, even our resident Yoki radar (Clare) did not notice Raphaela until she had spoken up, and she was right behind them.

Miria even commented that if they sent Rafaela after them, she would probably be able to find them. Considering that she is even better at hiding her aura then they are (and had been doing it much longer as well)

Not releasing Yoma energy has likely in no way affected her normal skill and power, which is probably higher then any of the current generations even with Yoma energy being released, with the possible exceptions of Miata and the Partially Awakened group.

Also specializing in fighting Claymore's is also effectively specializing in fight anything in this Series Considering Claymore's are related to both Yoma and Awakened beings (poor humans dont even get mentioned :P )

and on a final note

Training yourself might not yield as much results as training with others, but I have no doubt it would still cause progress, and we have seen no real indication of solid "development" sealing so her being naturally more powerful then Clare and the others only servers to make her that much scarier when she develops herself more.

Rubel just throwing the #5 at her when she rejoined especially hints that the only purpose of the rank was for her to be in a position of some authority, but still able to keep her profile low (at least compared to her former rank of #2 and being on par with #1)

On Rubel

Rubel is also another topic of interest, he seems to know things that others in the Organization do not, his words to the Organization members and his own personal thoughts often conflict with each other.

So I would have to say that Rubel was probably aware from the start that Clare was alive and had most likely managed to defeat Ophelia, but he seems to have a strange semi-protective/malicious relationship with Clare considering he threatens her and puts her in dangers way, but also gives her helpful advice/info when she needs it and avoids telling other Organization members what he knows most of the time.

As for the Organization members being Voracious Eaters, it is a possibility, and I could see it happening.


I need to learn to shorten my posts.

[Fenrir_valindri]

Edit: whoops double post plz delete >.<

[G. Zeus]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Interesting idea.
And maybe those Voracious Eaters created the Claymores. in Hellsing, Alucard explained at one point that the reason he hunted vampires was that if left unchecked, the vampires would turn everyone and they'd be left with nothing to eat (or rather, drink).

Maybe those Voracious Eaters looked at the world and thought "Too much competition. Not enough food. Let's do something about it."

It would beg the question of how they managed to not get found out by the Claymores. Maybe, in their wisdom, they found a way to avoid detection - the youki suppressing pills, maybe?

Seeing that even highly trained warriors of the holy capital still aren't a match for regular Youma, it would make a lot of sense if the Voracious Eaters actually made the first move. Looking at Isley's attitude towards his inferiors (kamikaze mission) and Riful's policy concerning the weaker awakened (if it's no good, kill it), it wouldn't be unlikely if some old and powerful yoma held the same beliefs about the weaker yoma competing for food.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri

From what we have seen, ranks seem to ignore yoki release most of the time, it has always been clear if someone, say Ophelia, decided to fight Galatea and neither released there special abilities or release Yoma energy, Galatea would still win, and if Ophelia resorted to Yoma energy use, Galatea would probably only need her innate, non-yoki reliant, talents to defeat her.

What makes you say that?

Similar to how Teresa could defeat everyone below her without releasing Yoma energy at all (to use an extreme example)

It was Theresa. Don't use her as an normal example!

Now going by this guideline, former #2 Rafaela should be able to beat almost anyone below her previous rank WITHOUT releasing Yoma energy, and not using Yoma energy at all has become a vast advantage for her regardless. People cannot even detect her AT ALL anymore, even our resident Yoki radar (Clare) did not notice Raphaela until she had spoken up, and she was right behind them.

I really don't think a superior number means you can defeat an inferior without releasing. It depends of the gap there is between you, and of your own fighting style.

Miria said there wasn't much difference between #6 and #9, so I don't think she could have beaten any of them without releasing. (pre-time skip, of course.)