Code Geass - Spoilers & Speculation (take 3)

[Dream_Traveller]

Okay, eight.

[Orga777]

Originally Posted by Tokkan

Novels are not canon. And we know Bismarck respected her.

Yeah really. There are A LOT of people that respected her in this cast. Trying to figure out why... but still. Wouldn't surprise me if her death is what put Schneizel on this road too. Everyone else respected her for some reason, so why not him too?

Man... if they just really knew her personality...

[Dream_Traveller]

Eight out of tens of people does not equal a lot.

[Baixinho]

Originally Posted by Orga777

I think you misunderstand me. The world itself may get better and people would be less miserable as a population, but the ones that are involved closely with this conflict will NOT be happy. Too much has happened and there is still a lot that is going to happen. A lot of others will probably be dead, and those that live will really just be there unable to enjoy the new world. At least that is how I see it...

Originally Posted by Dream_Traveller

Baixinho, Zero Requiem might be even worse than what...well, not Schneizel...than what Euphemia did. On a global scale. Which is pretty bad. And seeing as a great deal of the cast is going to meet their maker in 24, presumably, that makes it more miserable.

Yeah Orga, that was pretty much what I had understood of your point. But What I mean actually is that we will see the result of Zero Requiem via the characters that we know. If these characters all have a miserable ending, thefeel it will leave us with will be the one of a bitter ending, even if they show some images of happy unnamed people.

DT, I really don't think they will conclude the show with the result of Lelouch's plan being a bad thing. He wants to create a better world in the end. He is the main character. It would be terribly ant-climatic if he doesn't end up succeeding. Unless he changed his mind, but this is very unlikely imo.

[AbsoluteZero125]

And thank you narona for the welcome

[Narona]

Originally Posted by Orga777

Man... if they just really knew her personality...

Just a note... actually her personality was not that bad before being killed by V.V... Charles almost lost his interest to the whole plan about killing the gods because of the happiness he found with her. that's why v.v. killed her.

Then she became insane. But before that, she was quite sane.

[demon_god04]

Originally Posted by Dream_Traveller

Nunnally's was spoken in Turn 23.

And demon_god04, Marianne was only respected by Clovis, Euphemia, Cornelia, Lelouch and Nunnally, and Charles and Jeremiah. Outside of those seven, she was quite hated by many, and the side material depicted her as a Knight who lusted for combat and who was, frankly, quite murderous.

Bismark as well, and which side material? I am just going by things they have shown us in the anime and that list of named characters is pretty long. And considering the degree of admiration some of them has shown. Cornelia went and conducted an investigation privately to find out who killed her, Clovis' paintings, though admittedly he was more fixated on Lelouch, I shouldn't even have to mention Jeremiah, and Bismark's dieing words were her name. Hell V.V was even worried of her effect on Charles and killed her out of jealousy.

[Dream_Traveller]

Again, those five, plus Lelouch, Nunnally and (presumably) Euphemia. Seven to eight people out of a cast of tens does not make for a lot.

[demon_god04]

Originally Posted by whiter

I'll just say this: read the few last paged with thought, then read this: Kallen had a minor crush for Lelouch / Zero in the first season or so it seemed, and for her to get over it and get stronger as a person, she needed to interact and learn about Lelouch, fall in love and realize the things as they'r now, so that she would be able to move forward as she herself said in Ep 21.
That was all for her to move forward, to learn who she is, to realize her feelings... don't make me put all the details into this post.

Which she hasn't yet either way. And it is unneccessary for you to put the details because quite frankly, and I intend no offence, I am rather confused by many of your arguments as they tend to run contrary to your own earlier points. And I'd suggest you read what I said as the point I am making is that for Kallen to have some kind of resolution after seeing the "truth" about Lelouch for once. And the giant waste of time her side plot would turn into if that does not happen.

[DarkLordOfkichiku]

Originally Posted by demon_god04

and which side material?

The novels, I think...

[ZeroSama]

Originally Posted by Dream_Traveller

Again, those five, plus Lelouch, Nunnally and (presumably) Euphemia. Seven to eight people out of a cast of tens does not make for a lot.

Thats because the rest didn't have the opportunity to meet her. if they did they would most obviously swear loyalty and attack anyone who even hinted otherwise.

[Orga777]

Originally Posted by Narona

Just a note... actually her personality was not that bad before being killed by V.V... Charles almost lost his interest to the whole plan about killing the gods because of the happiness he found with her. that's why v.v. killed her.

Then she became insane. But before that, she was quite sane.

You kidding? She made the pact with Charles to crush the Jupiter too. XD
V.V. was just jealous and used it as an excuse.

Originally Posted by Baixinho

Yeah Orga, that was pretty much what I had understood of your point. But What I mean actually is that we will see the result of Zero Requiem via the characters that we know. If these characters all have a miserable ending, thefeel it will leave us with will be the one of a bitter ending, even if they show some images of happy unnamed people.

Exactly. I have had a feeling for the last couple weeks that the ending is going to leave a bitter taste in our mouths and an empty feeling in our guts. But will STILL be done well. XD Just that it will be... well, not happy. Like a Shakespearean play really. A tragedy.

DT, I really don't think they will conclude the show with the result of Lelouch's plan being a bad thing. He wants to create a better world in the end. He is the main character. It would be terribly ant-climatic if he doesn't end up succeeding. Unless he changed his mind, but this is very unlikely imo.

I don't know Baix. I think, judging by how he is going about things and his mindset, his plan may not be good at all either. And I don't think him backing out of it is out of the realm of possibility either. Suzaku is the unfaltering one now. Lelouch is not. I expect things to end badly there too actually...

[whiter]

Originally Posted by demon_god04

Which she hasn't yet either way. And it is unneccessary for you to put the details because quite frankly, and I intend no offence, I am rather confused by many of your arguments as they tend to run contrary to your own earlier points. And I'd suggest you read what I said as the point I am making is that for Kallen to have some kind of resolution after seeing the "truth" about Lelouch for once. And the giant waste of time her side plot would turn into if that does not happen.

And I'm saying that all those events could have been for her to get over Lelouch at some point to be able to move forward and to grow as a person. There's no necessity for her to get any resolution with Lelouch anymore if the events were for her to grow.
There's no must that would make the developments pointless, if it weren't to happen. Simple as that, I'll just rest my case.
You'r assuming that if she has been close to Lelouch for all the season, those events must work for distant goal that is involvves Lelouch, which is simply false.
Take it however you want, the fact is that the events could exist for something different from your desire, and it won't make those developments into waste.

[demon_god04]

Originally Posted by Dream_Traveller

Again, those five, plus Lelouch, Nunnally and (presumably) Euphemia. Seven to eight people out of a cast of tens does not make for a lot.

Because the caste is mixed there are Chinese and Japanese characters that do not know her, almost every named character we know to have known her worshiped her. But you are still missing the point. Which is that those characters served to ingrain in us that Marianne was very well respected, except for the other jealous wives of Charles. And among that list note how they are all nobles or royals, treating a commoner with that kind of respect and worship is uncommon to me in Britannia to say the least.

Originally Posted by DarkLordOfkichiku

The novels, I think...

Are they canon material?

[Narona]

Originally Posted by Orga777

You kidding? She made the pact with Charles to crush the Jupiter too. XD
V.V. was just jealous and used it as an excuse.

She accepted when she was young that's right. But then she lived with charles and had children.

Charles and V.V. wanted to destroy jupiter (XD) because they had a terrible past full of sadness and betrayals. For those two, the plan to kill the gods was everything left because they didn't have any faith anymore in this world. But then charles found happiness with Marianne.

The line from V.V. is:

Marianne : "if it's about the SoA-" (She was about to say something)

V.V.: "Hm? No It's about Charles. Ever since meeting you, Charles has changed, as if it's become a joy for the two of you to understand each other. At this rate, our pact will be rendered non-existent. I will be left behind"

There is jealousy because charles and the plan were everything for V.V. and the reason of him seeking immortality and geass code, but charles changed and was about to forget about his pact with V.V.. And Marianne didn't deny it during this conversation.

Then after her death marianne's goal was ONLY to destroy the gods, same as charles and v.v..

I guess that charles and marianne may have changed their mind if v.v. didn't kill her

[DarkLordOfkichiku]

Originally Posted by Orga777

Exactly. I have had a feeling for the last couple weeks that the ending is going to leave a bitter taste in our mouths and an empty feeling in our guts. But will STILL be done well. XD Just that it will be... well, not happy. Like a Shakespearean play really. A tragedy.

So the ending'll be soemthing like this? <_<:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_0EnZ_pjWE

[DarkLordOfkichiku]

Originally Posted by demon_god04

Are they canon material?

*shrigs* How much "canon" they are is up to debate - and as I haven't read'em, I really can't say. They should count as "side material" though.. <_<.

[Orga777]

Originally Posted by Narona

She accepted when she was young that's right. But then she lived with charles and had children.

Charles and V.V. wanted to destroy jupiter (XD) because they had a terrible past full of sadness and betrayals. For those two, the plan to kill the gods was everything left because they didn't have any faith anymore in this world. But then charles found happiness whith Marianne.

The line from V.V. is:

Marianne : "if it's about the SoA-" (She was about to say something)

V.V.: "Hm? No It's about Charles. Ever since meeting you, Charles has changed, as if it's become a joy for the two of you to understand each other. At this rate, our pact will be rendered non-existent. I will be left behind"

There is jealousy because charles and the plan were everything for V.V. and the reason of him seeking immortality and geass code, but charles changed and was about to forget about his pact with V.V.. And Marianne didn't deny it during this conversatioon.

But Charles still wanted to crush Jupiter XD. That is the thing, Marianne also wanted to crush Jupiter. V.V. was just a jealous little kid there. There was no rael hints that Charles was NOT going to toast the gods. Just that he was changing. Who knows though, you may be right, but Marianne was in on the plan fromt he beginning and was going along with it. No doubt about that.

[Baixinho]

Originally Posted by Orga777

You kidding? She made the pact with Charles to crush the Jupiter too. XD
V.V. was just jealous and used it as an excuse.



Exactly. I have had a feeling for the last couple weeks that the ending is going to leave a bitter taste in our mouths and an empty feeling in our guts. But will STILL be done well. XD Just that it will be... well, not happy. Like a Shakespearean play really. A tragedy.



I don't know Baix. I think, judging by how he is going about things and his mindset, his plan may not be good at all either. And I don't think him backing out of it is out of the realm of possibility either. Suzaku is the unfaltering one now. Lelouch is not. I expect things to end badly there too actually...

Well, I'm really thinking this is just some drama build-up. If the show is to have a bitter end, it will most probably be because the main protagonist(s) will meet a tragic end (which seems very likey right now actually), but I don't think they will add a tragic ending for the secondary characters on top of that. Some may have (Viletta/Ougi? Todo/Chiba? Cornelia? Nunnally? Kallen?), but I think most of the secondary cast will live happily thanks to what Lelouch achieved. It will be his way to atone for what he did.

Of course I could be wrong on this.

[Narona]

Originally Posted by Orga777

But Charles still wanted to crush Jupiter XD. That is the thing, Marianne also wanted to crush Jupiter. V.V. was just a jealous little kid there. There was no rael hints that Charles was NOT going to toast the gods. Just that he was changing. Who knows though, you may be right, but Marianne was in on the plan fromt he beginning and was going along with it. No doubt about that.

As I edited it above: I guess that charles and marianne may have changed their mind if v.v. didn't kill her

C.C. changed her mind. And said that charles and marianne only do that for themself. Think about it. Since marianne's death charles can't be with her. Yeah, there was the plan to kill the gods from the start, but it also became a silly solution for them to reunite since marianne had No body anymore in the current world.

C.C. changed her mind, so I guess that marianne and Charles may have changed too.

I'm just saying that we can't be sure that they may have not changed given the circumstances