[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 5 End of the golden witch

[MeoTwister5]

Personally Knox 5 isn't specifically someone who's considered a foreigner but meant to represent a culprit with a foriegner-like presence in terms of being in a place he shouldn't be.

In other words, my interpretation of Knox Rule 5 in terms of Umineko is that it doesn't allow anyone who has no viable reason to be there and be a probable culprit that isn't explorable as a motive beforehand. Foreigner in terms of a person who isn't really supposed to be there and is there for reasons and circumstance alien to the setting at hand. To me Rule 5 means that any possible culprit must have a logically deducible reason for being there, method to get there a realistic means to getting the job done. As such, the culprit can't be someone out of the blue with a motive that's ridiculous and unrelated to the setting.

[chronotrig]

Well, as Ryuukishi said, the Knox rules are open to interpretation, and it's very easy to interpret Rule 5 in a way that makes it irrelevant to Umineko. It was never meant as an overarching "no foreigner can be the culprit", but was mainly directed at a specific trend in detective novels at the time that Knox didn't particularly like.

By the way, not sure if anyone has posted it, but here is the full version of the laws, including the context they were first seen in. Notice the section mentioning chess...

[Renall]

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

Personally Knox 5 isn't specifically someone who's considered a foreigner but meant to represent a culprit with a foriegner-like presence in terms of being in a place he shouldn't be.

In other words, my interpretation of Knox Rule 5 in terms of Umineko is that it doesn't allow anyone who has no viable reason to be there and be a probable culprit that isn't explorable as a motive beforehand. Foreigner in terms of a person who isn't really supposed to be there and is there for reasons and circumstance alien to the setting at hand. To me Rule 5 means that any possible culprit must have a logically deducible reason for being there, method to get there a realistic means to getting the job done. As such, the culprit can't be someone out of the blue with a motive that's ridiculous and unrelated to the setting.

I also interpret it to mean, based on the mystique of the orient at the time of early detective fiction, that the whole thing can't turn out to have been some fantastic happening created by some foreign character with abilities unforseen to the story. So no Chinese mystics with strange potions in a story set in Idaho, no rough-and-tumble Texas cowboys gunning down the bad guys in a story that's supposed to take place in Newfoundland, etc. The story should have a thematically consistent cast of characters and culprit.

On the other hand, perhaps there was a reason behind the rule's omission. In a story where Kinzo studied European magic, keeps sawed-off Winchesters on his private island, a supposedly European-looking witch torments people, and a Japanese guy is named Rudolf, it might be hard to imagine what would even count as a Rule 5 violation.

[Ithekro]

Is Umineko's case, a foreigner would be like if some Brazilian came to the island suddenly. Or an Ethiopian, or Iranian. Someone that was entirely out of place within both the setting and naming conventions of the set piece.

[Hareoic]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Is Umineko's case, a foreigner would be like if some Brazilian came to the island suddenly. Or an Ethiopian, or Iranian. Someone that was entirely out of place within both the setting and naming conventions of the set piece.

Does Erika qualify, then?

[Klashikari]

Hardly, considering she is as "japanese" as the rest of the cast, if not even more.
That said, that rule isn't even used for Episode 5 anyway.

[urusai]

Erika doesn't, because she's the designated detective (and thus not the culprit).

[Ithekro]

Erika is a local, not a foreigner. A foreigner is one would comes from a distant land in most of those old novels. An exotic place...at least to the locals. Coming in off a boat from say Tokyo or Hinamizawa is not all that foreign in Umineko.

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Hardly, considering she is as "japanese" as the rest of the cast, if not even more.
That said, that rule isn't even used for Episode 5 anyway.

This suddenly reminds me of the "chopstick" scene XD

[Used Can]

Originally Posted by Hareoic

Or, if you want to take it to an extreme, rule five would eliminate anybody who has a western name as the culprit, since the name itself is "foreign".

No, with Chinaman, it referred to someone who looked distinctively different from the rest (i.e. quite out of place). Think of it as the Chinese man in a room full of white people, in which the Chinese man is the culprit.

I think this was used a lot on Sherlock Holmes novels.

I think rule 5 was not used because it works only for the author. Well, all of the rules work like that, but I don't see how R07 could make it work for the characters. That, and we should take into account no one (other than the fantasy characters) looks out of place.

[momobunny]

I really hope that Ryukishi will hold another character popularity poll. I really wonder how people feel about Bern, Erika, Lambda, Natsuhi, Dlanor, and Beatrice after this Episode.

[Volcanic]

Originally Posted by Maho Momo

I really hope that Ryukishi will hold another character popularity poll. I really wonder how people feel about Bern, Erika, Lambda, Natsuhi, Dlanor, and Beatrice after this Episode.

Add Battler to that, too. YOU ARE THE WITCHES

I predict Battler, Beato, and Natsuhi going waaay up, Bern (and Lamba) going waaay down, and Dlanor starting out up and Erika starting out down.

[Rias]

Originally Posted by Maho Momo

I really hope that Ryukishi will hold another character popularity poll. I really wonder how people feel about Bern, Erika, Lambda, Natsuhi, Dlanor, and Beatrice after this Episode.

Most likely there will be one, just like after every game. I'm actually more interested in the poll for most suspicious character.

[momobunny]

Originally Posted by Volcanic

Add Battler to that, too. YOU ARE THE WITCHES

I predict Battler, Beato, and Natsuhi going waaay up, Bern (and Lamba) going waaay down, and Dlanor starting out up and Erika starting out down.

Ehh Battler not so much, I doubt he'll leave the Top 3 anytime soon. ^^;
Battler and Beato can't go higher, they're already in the top three of the previous polls and the only other character who was as popular as them (Ange) isn't in this episode. So no doubt that the top two favorite spots will go to them.

However, I feel like the results for Bern, Lambda, and Erika will be different... I can't imagine them being the least popular characters, they contribute a lot to the episode apparently... even if what is contributed isn't necessarily what is wanted. I don't think their fanbases will shrink or start out that low.

Natsuhi and Dlanor I can imagine being up quite high though.

[Marion]

Yeah Battler and Beato will probably be in the top 2. Virgilia will probably go up, along with Natsuhi and maybe Kinzo. I can see Erika starting off in the Top 10 but not Top 5. I'm sure Bern or Lambda will get into the Top 5 - maybe even both.

As far as 'most suspicious' goes I think it'll be similar to the usual- Battler, Kanon and Nanjo. Other two will probably be Jessica and Kyrie (both are normally seen within that area)

[Tjfarmer]

If people are still voting for battler though, their votes going to be a total waste....

[ameskitty]

Got some bad news for all the people wishing for a poll:

http://07th-expansion.net/Cgi/clip/clip.cgi (the entry titled 「人気投票」についてのご報告です)

Unfortunately, from what I got from this, they just don't have the resources to do a character popularity poll this time around .

If my translation's correct, though, Ryukishi seems open to the possibility of somebody else independently setting up a poll and sending him an e-mail about it so he can put up a link. So there's still a possibility of some kind of poll.

(please correct me if I'm wrong )

[momobunny]

Originally Posted by the_rogue

Got some bad news for all the people wishing for a poll:

http://07th-expansion.net/Cgi/clip/clip.cgi (the entry titled 「人気投票」についてのご報告です)

Unfortunately, from what I got from this, they just don't have the resources to do a character popularity poll this time around .

If my translation's correct, though, Ryukishi seems open to the possibility of somebody else independently setting up a poll and sending him an e-mail about it so he can put up a link. So there's still a possibility of some kind of poll.

(please correct me if I'm wrong )

Well that sucks. ._.
Hopefully a fan will make a poll... but it still won't be the same...

I'm curious though, what "resources" is he talking about? Does it really take that much to make a poll? O.o;

[Hareoic]

Originally Posted by Maho Momo

Well that sucks. ._.
Hopefully a fan will make a poll... but it still won't be the same...

I'm curious though, what "resources" is he talking about? Does it really take that much to make a poll? O.o;

Bandwidth, maybe?

[momobunny]

Originally Posted by Hareoic

Bandwidth, maybe?

Ahh that makes sense I suppose. Even though I kinda have no idea about that stuff.