(L) Kara No Kyokai

[cheung]

I thought Kara no Kyoukai was a pilot for ideas. Tohno Shiki's personality and traits are based off Mikiya which is why they seem so similar.

[Cat Megex]

Originally Posted by cheung

I thought Kara no Kyoukai was a pilot for ideas. Tohno Shiki's personality and traits are based off Mikiya which is why they seem so similar.

Exactly.

Except it's slightly complicated than that; technically, Aoko Aozaki (from Tsukihime) is the sister of Touko Aozaki (from Kara no Kyoukai). Meaning that you have two different universes, but the sisters exist in both, even if other characters don't.

[Archer]

Basically, just ignore everything about other TM works and treat this like a standalone. You can make connections and comparisons later, but going into KnK with this mindset will make things even more confusing.

[OceanBlue]

Originally Posted by Archer

Basically, just ignore everything about other TM works and treat this like a standalone. You can make connections and comparisons later, but going into KnK with this mindset will make things even more confusing.

Because otherwise, we won't be able to explain why there are two Mystic Eyes of Death Perception users, right?

But realize that there are some people here who have already read the KnK novels, so it's not like they can get any more confused watching the movies than they were when they read the novels. I don't see any problems with discussing parallels between TM works, since a lot of them do contain similarities. I personally think that comparing and contrasting helps me understand what's going on in KnK better.

[Littm]

Still no news about release of 4th DVD ?

[Archer]

Originally Posted by OceanBlue

Because otherwise, we won't be able to explain why there are two Mystic Eyes of Death Perception users, right?

But realize that there are some people here who have already read the KnK novels, so it's not like they can get any more confused watching the movies than they were when they read the novels. I don't see any problems with discussing parallels between TM works, since a lot of them do contain similarities. I personally think that comparing and contrasting helps me understand what's going on in KnK better.

In the context of KnK, no second Mystic Eye user (Shiki Tohno) has ever been discussed. That's what I mean by standalone: if you're just trying to enjoy a series for the first time, the last thing you want to do is to overcomplicate relatively insignificant details by trying to make connections which have nothing to do in the actual story. There's just way too many people that have the wrong idea about the premise of the story because somebody thought it was a good idea to explain it within the context of Tsukihime.

[stormy001_M1A2]

Originally Posted by Littm

Still no news about release of 4th DVD ?

AFAIK, 6 months rule of thumb, I think 4th DVD should be out latest by November 2008 and 5th is April 2009. They took a break between 3rd and 4th movie since 4th movie onwards are 2 hours in length.

2008-05-24 (Japan, Part 4 - Garan no Dou)
2008-08-16 (Japan, Part 5 - Mujun Rasen)

[Bathory Area]

"Shiki" in Japanese can also be "始期"or"死期”, which means the

"beginning/birth" or "the end/death".

[grunty]

Originally Posted by stormy001_M1A2

They took a break between 3rd and 4th movie since 4th movie onwards are 2 hours in length.

Movie 4 is like 45mins. Movie 5 is 115mins and I bet the next 2 movies will be back to ~1hour.

[Sterling01]

Originally Posted by grunty

Movie 4 is like 45mins. Movie 5 is 115mins and I bet the next 2 movies will be back to ~1hour.

I'm suspecting the 7th movie will be 90mins

[Bloodseeker]

Watched the third KnK movie earlier.

Shiki vs. Fujino was one of those rare fights where I actually found myself cheering for the villain.

Not only did I want to see things turn out well for Fujino, but Shiki's attitude made it kind of difficult to be on her side up until the point where she decides to help Fujino out.

[Skyfall]

Originally Posted by Bloodseeker

Watched the third KnK movie earlier.

Shiki vs. Fujino was one of those rare fights where I actually found myself cheering for the villain.

Not only did I want to see things turn out well for Fujino, but Shiki's attitude made it kind of difficult to be on her side up until the point where she decides to help Fujino out.

I am curious why you would side with Fujino in that fight. As much as i felt the fate of the rapists well deserved, (Which for Shiki didn't condemn her much either), but she had crossed a line when she killed an unrelated person. Fujino might have been a tragic victim of circumstances, but on the other hand it doesn't give her the right to lash out at random people on a whim.

What Shiki told her was correct - for whatever reasons, Fujino had come to crave the act of killing itself, and it was obvious she wasn't mentally stable. Given her abilities, she was a distinct danger to people around her. A loose canon coming to enjoy death. Or worse - developing a psychological need for it. As much as i felt sorry for Fujino, Shiki's decision to bring her down was ultimately correct.

[Alaya]

For someone who's interested, Fujino reprises in the new book for Kara no Kyoukai's lost chapter, Mirai Fukuon. Except from that chapter, the book contain mangas, which one of them have Fujino as a protagonist (or sort of). It also has the happy ending for Kara no Kyoukai (around many years later from the epilogue).

[Bloodseeker]

Originally Posted by Skyfall

I am curious why you would side with Fujino in that fight. As much as i felt the fate of the rapists well deserved, (Which for Shiki didn't condemn her much either), but she had crossed a line when she killed an unrelated person. Fujino might have been a tragic victim of circumstances, but on the other hand it doesn't give her the right to lash out at random people on a whim.

What Shiki told her was correct - for whatever reasons, Fujino had come to crave the act of killing itself, and it was obvious she wasn't mentally stable. Given her abilities, she was a distinct danger to people around her. A loose canon coming to enjoy death. Or worse - developing a psychological need for it. As much as i felt sorry for Fujino, Shiki's decision to bring her down was ultimately correct.

Because there was a way to cure her of her mental instability, and Nasu did a good job of getting me to want her to live long enough for that, so of course I was pretty much hoping that Fujino would manage to ward Shiki off until Mikiya could get her some help or something.

Also, Shiki is kind of difficult character to side with when she's up against a sympathetic opponent, given her cold and overly-combative attitude when it comes to others that she perceives as being her own kind. I think that Shiki would be a LOT cooler if the villains in KnK were more typical to Nasuverse villains in the sense of just being the kinds of bastards that you just couldn't feel sorry for. (well, I didn't really feel sorry for the first movie's villain, but she still didn't manage to feel as straight out evil or dangerous as some of the other Nasuverse villains)

[Skyfall]

Originally Posted by Bloodseeker

Because there was a way to cure her of her mental instability, and Nasu did a good job of getting me to want her to live long enough for that, so of course I was pretty much hoping that Fujino would manage to ward Shiki off until Mikiya could get her some help or something.

Also, Shiki is kind of difficult character to side with when she's up against a sympathetic opponent, given her cold and overly-combative attitude when it comes to others that she perceives as being her own kind. I think that Shiki would be a LOT cooler if the villains in KnK were the kinds of bastards that you just couldn't feel sorry for. (well, I didn't really feel sorry for the first movie's villain, but she still didn't manage to feel as straight out evil or dangerous as some of the other Nasuverse villains)

I see where you are coming from, so i guess we will just have to disagree whether we can side with Shiki or not. You are saying that Shiki is overly combative, but look what she is up against. She is playing a game of life and death over there, and despite appearances, Fujino is a monster. One that cost Shiki her arm to deal with. I am not condemning Fujino here, i can sympathize with her quite a bit, and it was definitely not her fault of what she became. But on the other hand, the result is what Shiki is facing. She doesn't really have the luxury of being soft hearted or consider alternatives when a moment of faltering may well cost her own life. (And ultimately she is the one who is right).

And she actually decided to take a gamble and try and help Fujino when she was in a safe position to do so. She is a demon hunter after all. Hunting dangerous supernatural entities is what she does; having a big heart doesn't go well along with it. Even if what you are hunting isn't downright evil at all times, it is all the same if innocent people are dying because of it. I feel for Fujino's situation, but at the same time i feel that Shiki was doing what had to be done, and wearing a different expression won't be making her job any prettier, nor increasing her chances of coming out alive.

[Bloodseeker]

Originally Posted by Skyfall

I see where you are coming from, so i guess we will just have to disagree whether we can side with Shiki or not. You are saying that Shiki is overly combative, but look what she is up against. She is playing a game of life and death over there, and despite appearances, Fujino is a monster. One that cost Shiki her arm to deal with. I am not condemning Fujino here, i can sympathize with her quite a bit, and it was definitely not her fault of what she became. But on the other hand, the result is what Shiki is facing. She doesn't really have the luxury of being soft hearted or consider alternatives when a moment of faltering may well cost her own life. (And ultimately she is the one who is right).

And she actually decided to take a gamble and try and help Fujino when she was in a safe position to do so. She is a demon hunter after all. Hunting dangerous supernatural entities is what she does; having a big heart doesn't go well along with it. Even if what you are hunting isn't downright evil at all times, it is all the same if innocent people are dying because of it. I feel for Fujino's situation, but at the same time i feel that Shiki was doing what had to be done, and wearing a different expression won't be making her job any prettier, nor increasing her chances of coming out alive.

I think that you're misunderstanding what I'm saying about Shiki being overly-combative.

She's not just practical. She enjoys hurting and taunting people with hostile demeanors, and she lets everybody know it.

That can be pretty awesome when the good guy is up against an equally arrogant villain that needs to be put in his place, but its a very difficult thing to cheer for when you feel bad for the villain and really want things to turn out well for her.

[Skyfall]

Originally Posted by Bloodseeker

I think that you're misunderstanding what I'm saying about Shiki being overly-combative.

She's not just practical. She enjoys hurting and taunting people with hostile demeanors, and she lets everybody know it.

That can be pretty awesome when the good guy is up against an equally arrogant villain that needs to be put in his place, but its a very difficult thing to cheer for when you feel bad for the villain and really want things to turn out well for her.

Nah, i did understand what you were trying to say I guess its just that we have slightly different views on Shiki here ... or rather to what degree we perceive her attitude as misplaced, and to what degree we sympathize with the villains. In Fujino's case, one can say that at first Shiki was trying to bring Fujino's own attention to what she was becoming with her snarky remarks and ironic taunts. There are probably better ways to go about escalating mental instability, but she is a hunter, not a diplomat. She is there to hunt things that ultimately need to be put in their place, one way or another. Fujino needed to be put in her place as well in the end.

Now don't get me wrong - i fully felt for Fujino as well and wished she had a better fate, but at the same time i understood she was the "evil" one there. Nothing of what Shiki said was wrong after all. I felt for Fujino and her unfortunate circumstances, but Shiki was the right one there. By giving in to her murderous madness Fujino had become Shiki's enemy, so i don't expect Shiki to be any more nice than she needs to be ... which isn't much, considering her immediate objective is to dispose of Fujino.

[Massahiro]

Just my opinion. I haven't read the novels I'm not even familiar with the series as you guys. But in general, as I could see (in all episodes), is this follows a "traditional" script for japanese plots. There's no good or bad, completly right or completely wrong. What exisits are points of views.
You can usualy feel compassion for the evil (or bad) "side" of the story for a fact of unfortunate events that broght the "vilans" to act like that.
On the other hand you have the "good side" that, sometimes, can pass for unfortunate events close to the counterpart and chose a diferent path.
This battle, when both meet each other, has a more poetical e phlosophical theme.
They are not fighting because they are "good" or "bad", but beacause they are "human" they have their personalities and point of views.
One good exemple (going out a little from the subject) is the Live Action Casshern, there's no good or bad. Their actions that we could consider "good or bad" are taken by a number of factors, and usally close to what a "normal" person would take.
That's only my opinion of course xD
But as a apreciator of japanese scripts, plots and writers, I could notice that interesting aspect in Kara no Kyokai story.

Anyway, as I've said before: I'm not familiarized with the story as you guys are. I'm eager to read the novels when Del Rey release it.

P.S. Sorry for the grotesque english of mine xD

[Skyfall]

Originally Posted by Massahiro

There's no good or bad, completly right or completely wrong. What exisits are points of views.

I am going to have to disagree here. While it is true the story manages to have sympathetic villains, they are still clearly villains and we have what is clearly the good guys. Sure, they might not be the usual knights in shining armor in terms of demeanor, but the implications are quite clear. This isn't a case of both sides being in morally gray area - there are people who commit wrongdoings (although the reasons can be sympathetic, but that doesn't make the actions any less wrong), and the people who put a stop to them. There is little in terms of moral conflicts here.

[Xakanis]

Anyone just /facepalm when all mikiya could say after essentially being told by Shiki she wants to kill him a little bit (at the end the movie) was that it was her first smile?

^that kind of behavior is bad characterization since hes supposed to be "normal", I wish some other character in this universe would just tell him how much of a nut job he is.