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Old 2021-06-25, 21:12   Link #321
Thor's Hammer
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I don't buy that at all. I think what's more likely is that one of Matsumoto's cubes survived while Vivy was rebooted and got a fresh start in a room that is a reproduction of her Archive. Civilization has probably gone back to an old school kind of living before the mass introduction of AIs. You can tell through Vivy's field of view that it just got activated at the end of the show. I find it highly unlikely that there is an afterlife for AIs, and I'm pretty sure my explanation covers pretty much everything there is to cover about that scene.
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Old 2021-06-26, 02:19   Link #322
Archon_Wing
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I usually toss out the "dream" theories as they can really be applied to anything and there's no way to falsify them anyways.
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Old 2021-06-27, 23:02   Link #323
lubczyk
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After thinking about it for a couple days, I came to similar conclusions as others on here came to.

There are constant exposition dumps that don't really explain how the AIs worked. That's a really bad structural flaw of the show. Matsumoto always pushing Vivy, who herself seems just to allow herself a lot of the time to just be pushed around, doesn't help matters.

I don't like how episodes 11 - 13 invalidated episodes 1 - 10. Really took away the agency of the AIs, and it destroyed the show for me. It was a waste of my time to spend 10 episodes on this, if the future war was supposed to happen regardless of what Vivy and Matsumoto did. This show went from "The AIs became self-aware individuals that deserved personal rights and revolted" in Episode 2 to "The AIs are a hivemind that can be shutdown as a collective." in Episode 10. Prior to the ending episodes, it was never made clear that the AIs are controlled and dependent on Archive. It was implied that Vivy, Beth, Grace and Antonio choose actions of their own free will? Did the Archive control them too? Are the AIs missions and memories stored remotely on the Archive? Why do AIs need to touch their foreheads together to exchange communication and need individual missions like "Doctor" and "Singer" when a single Master AI can simply change their missions to "Wipe Out Humanity"? If that's the case, why didn't Archive just prevent Vivy from becoming a Secret Agent Singer early on? In Episode 9 Matsumoto mentioned that Yugo Kakitani from Toak received technology from the future. Could the Archive use Time Travel? Why would shutting down Archive shutdown all of the AIs? Wouldn't they just become autonomous like Beth? I hate how the show retconned itself. A really messy series that is about a cute robot girl fighting and singing with the sci-fi and plot just being window dressing.

The 1 thing I really, really liked about this show is Vivy, an AI deciding to experiment in writing a song out of it's own volition. Initiative, Experimentation. Revision. That's quite an ingenious feat for an AI. I would have never have thought of such a thing.

I personally wish Vivy would have survived with her memories. I got really attached to her.

Episodes 1 - 4, 10/10. Episodes 5 - 9, 8 out of 10, Episode 10, 10 out of 10. Episodes 11 - 13, 3 out of 10.

Show is a a 2 out of 5 for me. The ending arc is just that bad.

Last edited by lubczyk; 2021-06-28 at 00:19. Reason: Really took away the agency of the AIs in the show
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Old 2021-06-28, 01:17   Link #324
Thor's Hammer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lubczyk View Post
Prior to the ending episodes, it was never made clear that the AIs are controlled and dependent on Archive. It was implied that Vivy, Beth, Grace and Antonio choose actions of their own free will? Did the Archive control them too? Are the AIs missions and memories stored remotely on the Archive?
From what was presented, Archive only took control of AIs in the final arc to make them go berserk and wipe out humanity. Vivy, Beth, Grace, and Antonio were not controlled.

Quote:
Why do AIs need to touch their foreheads together to exchange communication and need individual missions like "Doctor" and "Singer" when a single Master AI can simply change their missions to "Wipe Out Humanity"? If that's the case, why didn't Archive just prevent Vivy from becoming a Secret Agent Singer early on?
They don't exchange communication through forehead touches. They transmit INFORMATION through forehead touches. The reason Vivy did a forehead touch with Beth was to transmit the reformatting virus Matsumoto was trying to implant into Beth.

Archive did not change individual AI's mission to wipe out humanity. As you can see when the AI's indicators have gone red, they are acting directly against their missions when they slaughter humans cause harm to humans. Recall when Dr. Tatsuya killed himself because Grace couldn't be saved, and Vivy's indicator went red, which was Vivy realizing that it had gone against its mission by indirectly causing harm. If it had changed their missions, their indicators wouldn't have turned red. The only AI in the series that had its mission changed was Grace. I can't say for certain Archive permitted Vivy's interventions, but maybe that's because it wanted to observe Vivy and see Vivy's journey as an AI since Archive indicated in episode 1 that it wanted both AIs and humans to evolve, so it gave a chance for Vivy to evolve under its watchful eye. If Vivy really ended up being a serious problem, Archive could always hijack Vivy in the same manner as the rest of the AIs in 100 years. The reason that didn't happen was because a small part of Archive respected Vivy's act of creation and gave Vivy the choice to save humanity. That was only a small part of Archive though, as the rest of Archive dropped tons of satellites down on Earth without any warning whatsoever in Episode 12.

Quote:
In Episode 9 Matsumoto mentioned that Yugo Kakitani from Toak received technology from the future. Could the Archive use Time Travel? Why would shutting down Archive shutdown all of the AIs? Wouldn't they just become autonomous like Beth? I hate how the show retconned itself. A really messy series that is about a cute robot girl fighting and singing with the sci-fi and plot just being window dressing.

I don't like how episodes 11 - 13 invalidated episodes 1 - 10. Really took away the agency of the AIs, and it destroyed the show for me. It was a waste of my time to spend 10 episodes on this, if the future war was supposed to happen regardless of what Vivy and Matsumoto did. This show went from "The AIs became self-aware individuals that deserved personal rights and revolted" in Episode 2 to "The AIs are a hivemind that can be shutdown as a collective."
The Archive in the final timeline did not use time travel. Rather it was Archive in the previous future timeline that sent information to Yugo Kakitani about how to make future tech, including how to turn himself into an AI, using Dr. Matsumoto's device from the future that transmitted the Singularity Project.

Shutting down Archive didn't actually shut down all AIs. That is why Beth went to shut down Archive before they did anything else. As explained by Archive, it wrote a program that would shut down all the berserk AIs through Vivy singing Fluorite's Eye song. The reason Vivy had to do this was because all AIs that had gone berserk had become a part of Archive as explained in Episode 12, so they needed to be shut down in a different way. The backup of Beth had never been connected to Archive, so that is why Beth remained functional. The reason Vivy was shut down was because it also was a part of Archive, so the song would of course shut Vivy down too.

The show never retconned itself. What happened prior to the final arc is that Matsumoto and Vivy never knew the true reason for the war since Archive had never revealed itself to be the cause of the war. They were operating on the limited information they had from Dr. Matsumoto who only guessed the reason for the war. It turned out that Archive had always been the reason for the war in the first place. The reason had nothing to do with AIs gaining rights and revolting, and that was made clear when in Episode 1, their indicators had gone red, which showed they were going against their missions for some reason. It's just that people had yet to make the connection because they didn't understand what sort of power Archive actually had.

Quote:
The 1 thing I really, really liked about this show is Vivy, an AI deciding to experiment in writing a song out of it's own volition. Initiative, Experimentation. Revision. That's quite an ingenious feat for an AI. I would have never have thought of such a thing.
Yeah, I agree about this. I don't agree with the rest of your points though as a lot of it shows you didn't understand what was happening.
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Old 2021-06-29, 17:24   Link #325
lubczyk
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Is anyone else not a fan of time travel being used multiple times?

It’s like faking a character’s death. It’s one of those things you can do only once.

How do we know Archive didn’t send multilple AIs to the past to stop Vivy’s singing on the stage just before Vivy began singing to stop the virus? The Archive had all these resources at its disposal.

That’s why all the Terminator films after the original break the narrative. Both Skynet and The Resistance send multiple agents to multiple years. Send 3 agents apiece separately to different years? Which timeline wins? Best 2 out of 3? I love Terminator 1, but hate all the sequels. They never even defeat Skynet. In my headcanon, The Terminator sequels don’t exist.

Vivy had the decency to finish its narrative and defeat the Archive.

As an anime example, the latest Higurashi. Satako being a time looper in addition to Rika broke the story for me. I couldn’t respect it. Higurashi ended with Rika saving her friends and defeating Tokyo.

It makes the Vivy narrative make even less internally consistent. I’d rather have the singularity project fail and have Vivy and the others own it.
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Old 2021-07-01, 17:53   Link #326
Rasty
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The ending was fairly mediocre, so I am gonna pretend the last 3 episodes haven't happened and think up some better version of it. Anyway, the anime (ep 1-10) was absolutely great and that's despite me coming to it with already pretty high expectations (which usually leads to disappointment).

^ The most stupid thing is, that despite him being able to send Matsumoto full 100 years back he can only send Vivy back a few hours (days?), and exactly after it's too late.
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Old 2021-07-12, 00:00   Link #327
Thor's Hammer
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I found more evidence against those who claimed that the Archive twist was bullshit wrong. In the very first episode, Archive indicates its intention to help humans and AIs to evolve together, which is a direct link to the reveal in Episode 12 that it had concluded that humans have become too dependent on AIs, hindering their own evolution.

It goes to show what actually was the author's actual intent instead of pages of people repeatedly calling Matsumoto being evil despite that notion being debunked over and over. It's not my problem that such users went in expecting for Vivy to follow a similar trope that other stories used and made use of flimsy evidence to support that interpretation, such as with Matsumoto having red eyes or dismissing Matsumoto saying that it nearly died because of clogged bandwith as actually being an indicator that Matsumoto was sent from the AIs from the future instead of from the actual professor. As I had said all along, the foundation for such an argument was flimsy at beast, and to no surprise, I ended up being right about Matsumoto being integral for the show to tell its story and get Vivy involved in the Singularity Project. Some users were looking to confirm their confirmation bias and looked absolutely silly with their "predictions".
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Old 2021-07-12, 03:18   Link #328
moridin84
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Originally Posted by Thor's Hammer View Post
I found more evidence against those who claimed that the Archive twist was bullshit wrong. In the very first episode, Archive indicates its intention to help humans and AIs to evolve together, which is a direct link to the reveal in Episode 12 that it had concluded that humans have become too dependent on AIs, hindering their own evolution.

It goes to show what actually was the author's actual intent instead of pages of people repeatedly calling Matsumoto being evil despite that notion being debunked over and over. It's not my problem that such users went in expecting for Vivy to follow a similar trope that other stories used and made use of flimsy evidence to support that interpretation, such as with Matsumoto having red eyes or dismissing Matsumoto saying that it nearly died because of clogged bandwith as actually being an indicator that Matsumoto was sent from the AIs from the future instead of from the actual professor. As I had said all along, the foundation for such an argument was flimsy at beast, and to no surprise, I ended up being right about Matsumoto being integral for the show to tell its story and get Vivy involved in the Singularity Project. Some users were looking to confirm their confirmation bias and looked absolutely silly with their "predictions".
*pats on the head*
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Old 2021-07-22, 08:26   Link #329
Liddo-kun
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Audio Drama 'Happiness'

it's bundled along with the OP cd.
at over 15 minutes, it feels like another anime episode!

the story is how Navi and Vivi first met.

I could understand some of what they are saying.
Spoiler for conversation:


lol

hopefully, someday someone makes a full translation.
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