[Manga] Chapter 478 Discussion

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by Fran~

I don't agree with this...

In fact, Naruto got intel about a lot of people to defeat pain, but his victory was absolute. In a Battle/War, defeat is defined by the willing of the parts to fight, Naruto defeat both tactically and mentally to Pain. He didn't need to kill him, but Pain lost his willing to fight after his talk with Naruto.

Same thing with Kakuzu, Kakashi did the killing, but Kakuzu was totally defeated.

It's like you don't recognize Shikamaru's win over Hidan.

Haak answered this properly:

Originally Posted by Haak

If I recall, Pain actually beat Naruto and it took two plot devices to save him. The first one was Hinata and the second was Minato. XP

Before Hinata came Naruto was all but defeated. He need the nine tails to break free and then went out of control, damaging Pain in the process. Like Bleach & Ichigo's hollow.

Can only expect so much from shonen I guess.

Sasuke... Sasuke didn't defeat Deidara, Deidara choose a jutsu who mean death for both, but he fails... and Sasuke barely survives. With Itachi, Itachi never wanted to killing him....

Okay, I take back what I said about Sasuke then.

[Vindi89]

If Danzo falls here I wonder what will become of Root. Hopefully they'll peacefully integrate into the regular Anbu sqauds.

Originally Posted by Haak

If I recall, Pain actually beat Naruto and it took two plot devices to save him. The first one was Hinata and the second was Minato. XP

The funny thing is, the plot device was Pain beating Naruto in the first place.

[Fran~]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

Wait. Sasuke didn't defeat Deidara because Deidara chose a jutsu that killed himself. But Naruto's victory over Pein was absolute?
Last I checked, Pein also chose a jutsu that killed himself rather than Naruto landing the final blow. Losing the will to fight vs. choosing to kill your enemy along with yourself but failing both result in the same thing: victory for the opponent

Pain chose a Jutsu that bring back to life a lot of people from Konoha. Deidara chose to explode in order to killing Sasuke.

It's so different.

Pain could chose to keep alive and recognize his defeat or dying fighting, perhaps he even could win with Kanon's help, but, Naruto brainwashing was efective enough to allow Pain recognize his mistake and trying to apologize with that final jutsu.

Originally Posted by Kafriel

The third was narutism, don't forget that Naruto was rather exhausted when meeting Pain up in the paper tree.

he could overpower the chakra disturbing rod that Pain shoot at him being in that state... Pain was at his limit too.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

Haak answered this properly:Before Hinata came Naruto was all but defeated.

Huh? Is that the right use of that idiom?

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Fran~

he could overpower the chakra disturbing rod that Pain shoot at him being in that state... Pain was at his limit too.

Pain resurrected hundreds of dead people just minutes later (and Konan seemed pretty sure that he could have pwn'd Naruto even from the wheelchair/spider-thingie). So, yeah...Pain was clearly not at his limit, nor had he actually even attempted to complete his "mission"...

That being said, who cares? What does any of this have to do with Danzou v. Sasuke, or anything that happened in this chapter? Pain and Nagato done did (non-literally) "blowed themselves up good", so please leave them alone in their shallow graves...

[Kafriel]

^ I bet it was Danzou who killed the orphans' parents in the first place! -reckless speculation-
Danzou looks like a mini-Aizen, no matter what Sasuke does, he has a counter for it and ALWAYS has the upper hand

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by Vindi89

If Danzo falls here I wonder what will become of Root. Hopefully they'll peacefully integrate into the regular Anbu sqauds.

They won't really have a choice, unless they all become missing-nin. But aside from seeing Danzou become Hokage, Root doesn't really seem to have any ambitions that put them at odds with Konoha.

Originally Posted by james0246

Pain resurrected hundreds of dead people just minutes later (and Konan seemed pretty sure that he could have pwn'd Naruto even from the wheelchair/spider-thingie). So, yeah...Pain was clearly not at his limit, nor had he actually even attempted to complete his "mission"...

That's only because Konan believed Naruto was in close enough range to be controlled once Nagato hit him with chakra transmitter. The Kyuubi distorted it. Nagato was on his last leg, even though was able to resurrect all those people.

Originally Posted by Fran~

Pain chose a Jutsu that bring back to life a lot of people from Konoha. Deidara chose to explode in order to killing Sasuke.

It's so different.

Pain could chose to keep alive and recognize his defeat or dying fighting, perhaps he even could win with Kanon's help, but, Naruto brainwashing was efective enough to allow Pain recognize his mistake and trying to apologize with that final jutsu.

Sasuke out fought Deidara. Just because Deidara never submitted or the fact that Sasuke did personally kill him doesn't change that. He forced Deidara to resort to suicide, something Deidara would've never done if he thought there was any proper way of beating Sasuke. Sasuke didn't simply withstand the attack, he was already prepared for it. When the best one can hope for is a draw where they kill their opponent along with themselves, if they fail that, they've lost. Sandaime lost Oro. Deidara lost to Sasuke.

But anyways, I'll just say that Sasuke's fights are rarely clear-cut Sasuke curb-stomping his opponent. Likely Danzou's going to be the same way. Expect Sasuke to just barely survive.

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by Haak

Huh? Is that the right use of that idiom?

How so? He had the rods stuck in him, pinning him the ground, and disturbing his chakra. Pain could have very well ended it all right then and there.

[Kafriel]

I believe Haak means that "all but defeated" is the same as "anything except defeated", meaning that Naruto was winning the fight, which he wasn't. More of a phrasal lesson than a clush in opinions

edit: Let's stay on topic as much as possible, it's only day 1 and we're derailing already.

[bhl88]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

How so? He had the rods stuck in him, pinning him the ground, and disturbing his chakra. Pain could have very well ended it all right then and there.

Yeah... at which Naruto released both Sage and Kyuubi chakra to warn him: (I can kick you're a** right here and then.)

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Kafriel

I believe Haak means that "all but defeated" is the same as "anything except defeated", meaning that Naruto was winning the fight, which he wasn't. More of a phrasal lesson than a clush in opinions

Yeah this.

[Fran~]

Originally Posted by bhl88

Yeah... at which Naruto released both Sage and Kyuubi chakra to warn him: (I can kick you're a** right here and then.)

^ This... sameway Itachi didn't want to kill Sasuke, Naruto didn't want to kill Pain, that was his biggest victory... to defeat his hate towards him.

[SeanQ]

Sasuke's susano'o remains useless...
Danzou owned !!! xD I wonder what Izanagi is...

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

That's only because Konan believed Naruto was in close enough range to be controlled once Nagato hit him with chakra transmitter. The Kyuubi distorted it. Nagato was on his last leg, even though was able to resurrect all those people.
.

Nagato was at his limit, yet he could resurrect hundreds of people (something that killed Chiyo when she resurrected just one person)…? Whatever, let's just get off this topic...

Originally Posted by SeanQ

Sasuke's susano'o remains useless...
Danzou owned !!! xD I wonder what Izanagi is...

I like Sasuke's Susano'o. I think it has a cool design, and I like that it was designed with 3 arms...plus bows are cool...

[Haak]

Originally Posted by james0246

I like Sasuke's Susano'o. I think it has a cool design, and I like that it was designed with 3 arms...plus bows are cool...

Yeah me too. I like it. I was wondering when someone was gonna use a bow and arrow. Sasuke uses a crossbow.

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by Kafriel

I believe Haak means that "all but defeated" is the same as "anything except defeated", meaning that Naruto was winning the fight, which he wasn't. More of a phrasal lesson than a clush in opinions

edit: Let's stay on topic as much as possible, it's only day 1 and we're derailing already.

I googled the term and it was a pretty poor choice on my part.

Originally Posted by SeanQ

Sasuke's susano'o remains useless...
Danzou owned !!! xD I wonder what Izanagi is...

Itachi's Susano'o is still cooler, even without the mystical items.

[Cub-Sama]

Just want to say one final thing on the Pain business, Nagato was the 7th Pain the control of life and death meaning he could've killed 1000 more people rather than resurrecting them meaning the he had the reserves to beat Naruto. But Narutism triumphs all.

On topic, it is only a matter of time before Sasuke sets the arrows on fire with amaterasu and gives Susanoo Kirin as a pet.

[james0246]

^I thought the arrow was already on fire? I guess they are just made out of chakra...

[Cub-Sama]

I meant with amaterasu sorry I'll edit

[iBeast]

Ppl are such fools when it comes to the Sasuke vs DeiDara fight. Yeah he blew himself up. Why? It was his last resort. Sasuke outsmarted and out manuevered Deidara in all of his previous techniques. So Sasuke pushed the envelope and made Deidara succumb to his own death and Sasuke was clutch to summon Manda and survive.

Pain vs Naruto...Idk man, it seemed like Naruto barely fought Pain. From what I can remember, Pain basically used up most of his energy getting to the village, doing all that technical things and destroying the whole village with that massive chakra technique. Naruto comes out of nowhere and finds where Pain is and talk...It was lame as fk how Pain went out but whatever...