Macross Frontier - Episode 25 Discussion / Poll [END]

[diablo12]

But Alto already said that's all what he is playing.

The true purpose he joined the SMS and fight against bugs is to protect RANKA.

Alto also kissed with RANKA in the Movie Macross ZERO.

[Joachim]

Originally Posted by diablo12

But Alto already said that's all what he is playing.

The true purpose he joined the SMS and fight against bugs is to protect RANKA.

Alto also kissed with RANKA in the Movie Macross ZERO.

what twilight want to point out is that, on ep 22 or 23 i forgot, the scene in alto's house when sheryl said "give me courage to continue singing alto" and then the camera pans up with alto and sheryl notably "kissing" , and it was initiated by alto, not surprise kiss by sheryl, or a kiss scene where two people must kiss in the movie (alto and ranka), it is a kiss initiated by the guy

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by diablo12

But Alto already said that's all what he is playing.

The true purpose he joined the SMS and fight against bugs is to protect RANKA.

Alto also kissed with RANKA in the Movie Macross ZERO.

That was an acted kiss on Altos behalf. It´s not his fault that Ranka misunderstood it to be genuine.

And while Altos initial reason to join SMS was to protect Ranka, he later noticed that he also wanted to protect everyone else on Frontier.

[kilroy0097]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

That was an acted kiss on Altos behalf. It´s not his fault that Ranka misunderstood it to be genuine.

Heh. A bit of a Sheryl colored glasses interpretation there mags.

Alto when he learned that his role would require him to kiss Ranka he was very uncomfortable with that. He's probably kissed people before while he was an actor on stage but this time it was a bit different since at that time in the series he didn't quite understand what his feelings were for Ranka or Sheryl. Which is why I believe Sheryl beat Ranka to the punch with her "fake or real" kiss with Alto. That was the competitive side of Sheryl coming out I truly believe. Well played I might add. Sheryl accomplished two things with that kiss. One she got her first kiss on the lips with Alto, second kiss in the series, and she made it so Alto would be thinking about it during his scene with Ranka. Sly girl that Sheryl.

On the second thing, Ranka did not misunderstand anything. She used her own personal feelings for Alto in her scene, which she came to understand when Garby was talking to her on the beach. So to her the kiss was not only acting but also very genuine on her part towards Alto. So in her world of delusion she believed that Alto had feelings for her as she warped reality to fit her wants and desires. Alto probably didn't view the kiss nearly as personal as Ranka did but there was probably still some sort of small connection and closeness to it regardless. If not the VF flying scene at the end of Galia 4 wouldn't have been so tense. At that time in the series the audience really had no clue which way Alto would lean in the LT so it was an anticipated moment.

We know now better the feelings Alto had during those times but not much really. Kawamori has not given us much to work with on historical timeline of feelings. All we know is Alto wanted to protect Ranka and joined SMS. That's all the history we got out of him the troll.

[TwilightHack]

Originally Posted by diablo12

(1)But Alto already said that's all what he is playing.

(2)The true purpose he joined the SMS and fight against bugs is to protect RANKA.

(3)Alto also kissed with RANKA in the Movie Macross ZERO.

Note: (#) are my inserts.

1 & 2) Not quite.

During his dialogue in Ep23, we're clearly told that he was using Ranka and SMS as an excuse to run away. I wholly believe that Ozma's dialogue triggered his resolve... and the fact he did not go with SMS solidified the start of his life whilst not running away.

Ranka = excuse, Sheryl + Frontier = resolve. Which is also why Alto's answer to Klan's question is significant..

And its also why in the end, despite all its Mecha pr0nz, musical genius glory, Ep25 was a total romantic flop... a tragedy... a cop-out of epic proportions. A reminder to us by SK that Mecha > Romance in Macross, always.

3) Again not quite, even if there was a spark... the situation called for acting rather then the real thing. And it was Ranka who kissed him, not the other way around... that's just the way the scene was set up.

Besides, what Ranka gave Alto more closely resembled CPR than a kiss. It's what happened in Macross Zero.

Edit: @kilroy

Yep. It was at that point when she let her personal feelings interfere with her work and get the better of her... is when things started to go downhill.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by kilroy0097

Heh. A bit of a Sheryl colored glasses interpretation there mags.

Alto when he learned that his role would require him to kiss Ranka he was very uncomfortable with that. He's probably kissed people before while he was an actor on stage but this time it was a bit different since at that time in the series he didn't quite understand what his feelings were for Ranka or Sheryl. Which is why I believe Sheryl beat Ranka to the punch with her "fake or real" kiss with Alto. That was the competitive side of Sheryl coming out I truly believe. Well played I might add. Sheryl accomplished two things with that kiss. One she got her first kiss on the lips with Alto, second kiss in the series, and she made it so Alto would be thinking about it during his scene with Ranka. Sly girl that Sheryl.

On the second thing, Ranka did not misunderstand anything. She used her own personal feelings for Alto in her scene, which she came to understand when Garby was talking to her on the beach. So to her the kiss was not only acting but also very genuine on her part towards Alto. So in her world of delusion she believed that Alto had feelings for her as she warped reality to fit her wants and desires. Alto probably didn't view the kiss nearly as personal as Ranka did but there was probably still some sort of small connection and closeness to it regardless. If not the VF flying scene at the end of Galia 4 wouldn't have been so tense. At that time in the series the audience really had no clue which way Alto would lean in the LT so it was an anticipated moment.

We know now better the feelings Alto had during those times but not much really. Kawamori has not given us much to work with on historical timeline of feelings. All we know is Alto wanted to protect Ranka and joined SMS. That's all the history we got out of him the troll.

I almost completely agree with you on all points, but the genuiness of the kiss on Altos part. If you compare the scenes from Zero and episode 10, they are very, very close... Alto just played his part to perfection. Which for him includes letting himself feel the moment, as per his own definition on how to succesfully be an actor.

And, yeah, he was also bothered by kissing Ranka, and most likely in a romantic way. I don´t deny that at that time, he had some feelings for her. Until episode 14 it is pretty obvious. After that, his romantic interest did drop back to almost non-existant levels, however. I´m just saying that for him it meant much less than it meant for Ranka.

[Urei]

Let's face it, he would be bothered if he had to kiss anyone at that time. Sheryls tactics got better of him and he had to submit to her in the end.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by kilroy0097

Heh. A bit of a Sheryl colored glasses interpretation there mags.

Alto when he learned that his role would require him to kiss Ranka he was very uncomfortable with that. He's probably kissed people before while he was an actor on stage but this time it was a bit different since at that time in the series he didn't quite understand what his feelings were for Ranka or Sheryl.

Nope, Kabuki actors do not kiss on stage, ever. So in reality, hes probably never done it.

- Tak

[glyph]

Originally Posted by diablo12

But Alto already said that's all what he is playing.

The true purpose he joined the SMS and fight against bugs is to protect RANKA.

Alto also kissed with RANKA in the Movie Macross ZERO.

1. The true purpose he joined SMS was to protect his sky, and the people who want to keep living under it. The lying to himself part was that he joined up to protect Ranka alone, and that he hated his home Frontier like he claimed. Therefore, if he has to choose between the sky and Ranka if she turns out to be the threat to his sky, he will kill her.

Besides explicitly in his talk with Klan, this is shown in two other places.

When he first rescued Ranka, Alto just brushes her off saying it wasn't him who saved her and walks away, then when he sees the devastation done to his city, he loses control and throws up.

When he is thinking about Ozma's words what he is really fighting to protect, he looks up to the giant screen with Ranka, then pauses in thought and looks to the sky of Frontier instead.

2. It's just a scene in a movie. Even in the original events in Zero, that wasn't a real kiss but to save Shin from drowning when he loses his breath in shock of the Bird Human head.

[Tabris]

Originally Posted by glyph

When he first rescued Ranka, Alto just brushes her off saying it wasn't him who saved her and walks away, then when he sees the devastation done to his city, he loses control and throws up.

I'm pretty sure all of that revolved around Gilliam and his own helplessness in the VF-25 other than piloting. You know, with the whole, being saved by Gilliam and his VF, then taking Gilliam's VF after the guy got crushed to death in front of Ranka and Alto's eyes, having Ozma and Michael kill the Vajra whilst all Alto could do was fly about. Both Gilliam and Alto played a nice little role in distracting the Vajra from Ranka. And if Gilliam didn't come in, Alto wouldn't have gotten his hands on the VF-25 and been able to save Ranka afterwards.

I can't really explain it that well, but it's less to do with the city and it's destruction and more guilt or something as well as seeing his first death. Even in anime, I'm pretty sure someone getting crushed at the thorax isn't a nice sight.

Edit: tl;dr Alto shrugged her off because he felt as if he didn't help her, it was because of the VF-25, the one that Gilliam gave to him in a manner. She should have thanked him, but he's pretty dead. As for the throwing up, the Vajra didn't really seem to move a lot after crushing Gilliam, Alto went back to see things for himself and probably threw up at what he saw.

[glyph]

Originally Posted by Tabris

I can't really explain it that well, but it's less to do with the city and it's destruction and more guilt or something as well as seeing his first death. Even in anime, I'm pretty sure someone getting crushed at the thorax isn't a nice sight.

Yes, but he had it under control up to the point when he saw the burning city, which was the final straw that caused him to lose it.

[Tabris]

It was still more about Gilliam than the city and the sky in that case, right? And for all we know, he could have been looking at Gilliam's remains...

It's not like Alto really liked Frontier that much at the time anyway, since he always talked about it being so restricted and trapped he felt by it's boundaries, and wanting to be free of its confines by becoming a pilot of sorts. Without realising what being a pilot was about.

[Lockgar]

This episode has several WTF moments at the end, that ended in awesome. "dueling bards?"

[Elandyll]

Alto's reasons for joining the SMS were two fold. The official reason, the one he told himself at the beginning, was to protect Ranka (in a very "oni-chan brother" kind of way) and the people of Frontier.

The real reason, that we get to discover later, was to be in opposition to his dad and Brother, sort of proving to himself and them that Flying is really what he wants to do.

At the end, in ep.25, with the pictures of Alto acting Kabuki while he is fighting, I think that SK wants to show us that he has finally gone beyond that "adolescent rebellious stage" and that he is ready to leave his past behind (kabuki acting- but without a sense of shame or regret) for the right reasons, to protect the ones he love, and for the love of flying (the sky), and not to prove anything to himself or his familly.


Now, taking an unusual side about ep.25, I will make myself the devil's advocate and take Mr Shojji Kawamori's side (in truth, I also regret that no definitive conclusion has been brought up).

Listen people, we have had a literal -TON- of hints considering who Alto really prefers. Beyond this, SK has gone to great lengths to NOT show us exactly Alto making a definite choice (up to the camera panning away when he seemingly is initiating a tender kiss with Sheryl).
Obviously, SK knows that some people prefer Ranka to Sheryl (why, that I have no idea), and it is being very Japanese of him to, despite all the hints, let Alto's choice up in the air for people to decide for themselves, and nobody gets hurt (too much). Most people on this board know for certain who was chosen, with little doubts, and I think that we will have to be happy with this for the time being and wait for the movie, with the very real possibility that -NO- resolution of the LT will be brought forth there, or even worse, that SK might flop the hints on their head to show us a "different angle".

Just be ready for it

[elfboy]

Originally Posted by Elandyll

or even worse, that SK might flop the hints on their head to show us a "different angle".

Just be ready for it

Oh gawd... Buy the BluRay DVD's for "additional camera angles!" marketing idea.

-- it's revealed that Alto sucks on Sheryl's nose... bringing new meaning to nose job / blow your nose.

The LT was a let down, but hey, at least that's one more story that the movie can capitalize / conclude -- in addition to defeating the big villain. Everyone speaks of Grace returning, but Leon was just arrested -- he's got to go on trial and jail... which as far as movies has taught me, is easily broken out of thanks to corrupt friends in the army helping him out. Something tells me Leon is going to cause a lot of pain (Cathy character death? Nooo...) until Ozma puts a bullet between his eyes.

[kujoe]

Originally Posted by elfboy

Oh gawd... Buy the BluRay DVD's for "additional camera angles!" marketing idea.

-- it's revealed that Alto sucks on Sheryl's nose... bringing new meaning to nose job / blow your nose.

Uh, not sure if this was a joke, but I think Elandyll is implying that in return for Sheryl's huge advantage and Ranka's lackluster performance in the series, Kawamori might either make things more even or give Ranka a boost in the movie version.

As of now, I'm predicting a DYRL-like movie, in the sense that things will be more or less the same with a few exceptions. It's pretty hard to guess, considering Sheryl is already somewhat comparable to DYRL Minmay.

I'm kind of hoping for a retiring Sheryl helping out the rising idol, Ranka. That way, there would be more interaction between them, and set the rivalry more properly. Then enter Vajra, love triangle, etc. But this seems impossible considering Sheryl is still too young as an idol to even consider retiring.

[lars18th]

I think everyone looking for a break up in the love triangle is gonna be in for a serious disappointment in that movie. Also note that there was never, at any point, a hint at rivalry between the two girls.
If in the movie, Kawamori decides to bring rivalry between the two girls and an ultimate definition for a couple, I think he would be pretty much scrapping the storyline and moral he created masterfully in the series.
Wether Sheryl has an advantage or not, I dont look forward to seeing Ranka's heart getting crushed. I would not like to see her get killed (or sacrifice herself) by a plot device either.
Alto cannot choose one. I think that much is already clear from those last 25 episodes.
Personally, I am happy with the fact that Kawamori is rich, old, has nothing to prove to no one and does not have to bend to fans request for his work.
Pretty sure the movie will end up with a love triangle just the same.
If you are not open minded enough to accept his ending, better watch another show.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by lars18th

a hint at rivalry between the two girls

There was indeed a rivalry, just not a very active one. Although they did perform a sing-off to Alto, followed by Ranka's heartbroken scene in 19... etc.

Originally Posted by lars18th

If in the movie, Kawamori decides to bring rivalry between the two girls and an ultimate definition for a couple, I think he would be pretty much scrapping the storyline and moral he created masterfully in the series.

He already scrapped Sheryl's character development in Episode 25, wouldn't be the first time if he did it again.

- Tak

[BetoJR]

Originally Posted by lars18th

If you are not open minded enough to accept his ending, better watch another show.

Oh, c'mon. If you're so open-minded, why can't you accept the (somewhat) majority's opinion here, that Sheryl's clearly the winner of the love triangle, then? Geez... Ranka's sad face in the end, right before she issues her "challenge" is proof enough to anyone that has eyes.

So, is the pot calling the kettle black, or what?

And, what if the people here don't want to watch another show? Who are you to demand something like that?

[kujoe]

Originally Posted by Tak

There was indeed a rivalry, just not a very active one. Although they did perform a sing-off to Alto, followed by Ranka's heartbroken scene in 19... etc.

It surprises me that others seem to think the resolution is perfect. The so-called resolution is there but it isn't perfect. Kawamori is simply more than content to let his viewers infer on their own.

Alto may have chosen his wings, but the story is different with Sheryl and Ranka. They have chosen to be friendly rivals to each other, both in love and music. I think there's a plot there that could be used for the movie, hence the difference in perspective.