2015-03-21, 17:40
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Link #34982 | |
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A Rather Brillig Ember
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: North America
Age: 27
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2015-03-21, 17:59
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Link #34983 |
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Member
Join Date: Feb 2015
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Haguruma if I may ask, how did the transition from the trick ending to the magic ending go in the manga? I got a bit lost, because it seems like after killing Amakusa and Kawabata, she is already on the building.
And I know you may have heard this a lot, but thanks for the translations. |
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2015-03-21, 18:08
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Link #34984 | ||
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Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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My thoughts... a bit jumbled because I'm still overly excited about the whole thing and a bit hesitant as without the pictures to go by I could be missing some vital information but well... here I come! First thing first, I'm glad they included the trick ending! I was pretty afraid they would skip it. Now... I can't be quite sure from the script but I get the feeling the trick ending here was included as Ange's speculation of how her future would be? Is that the case? If it's that the case I think it was quite a good idea. Anyway... as in the VN Eva and Battler work together to close the door. Unless the manga is depicting it in a different way the script seems to imply, as the VN that Featherine is Tohya alterego so I guess the working together might mean Eva keeping silent till the end and Tohya refusing to reveal what was written in the diary. Can it work with how the scene is depicted in the manga? Though from how Battler speaks, as if EvaBeatrice represents an Eva who still has to take care of Ange I'm not really sure. Maybe Battler did something in 1986 as well. As Erika spoke I wonder again if Erika actually didn't fall from the boat but committed suicide. And LOL, I would love the idea of the Ushiromiya and Erika showing up again... though I'm not sure this is planned to happen in one of Ryukishi's future works... unless they meant in the trick ending where Erika effectively appears. Just wondering... does the manga show what's Ange's prize from the halloween party? And the trick ending really makes Ange scaringly similar to Erika, so much that I wondered if it could be that Erika is merely another version of Ange. I'm also glad the manga cleared the part about what it meant that Ange died in 1998. We discussed about it not so much time ago and it's nice to have official confirmation about it. Again, Featherine's last words make me really think she's a stand in for Tohya/Battler... as Beatrice was Battler's beloved witch. And I like how the manga made Featherine's thoughts a bit more clearer. Last but not least... again thank you a lot for your translations! You've no idea how happy they make me! And now... what are we still missing? 1) Battler & Beato leave the submarine base 2) Ange leaves for a travel 3) Lambda, Bern and Erika spend some quality time together 4A) Ange becomes a writer 4B) Ange and Tohya meet (which might be in the same chapter as the previous) 4C) Tohya goes to the orphanage (which might be in the same chapter as the previous) *sighs* Even Ep 8 is about to end... I'm gonna miss it... ;_; Quote:
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2015-03-21, 21:30
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Link #34985 | ||||||||||||
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Zero of the roulette
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Finland
Age: 30
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I just thought that because the cat Bern was always with Touya and Ikuko, that Bernkastel was involved with Touya from the beginning. Or more importantly the Tanabata extra TIP where she told Ange to never trust Eva if she wanted any of her family to return again and promised to look for that fragment made me think perhaps she knew Battler survived and was preparing Ange for their meeting. But maybe Bern did not know about Battler's survival and her promise was indeed about searching for a happy fragment for another Ange as Lambdadelta implied. If Bernkastel did not find the fragment where Battler survived for Featherine, it implies either that Ikuko found Touya by pure coincidence or she just doesn't need Bern to do it for her because she's the creator. While my earlier theory kind of avoided it, I do prefer an interpretation where there is a single Prime fragment where Touya exists, and all the other fragments about the Rokkenjima incident are its branches, fragments within a fragment. It fits with the statement that Bernkastel moved to a bigger catbox to find Lion, which would be a fragment outside Prime's influence. Quote:
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I also think you're mistaken about Lambda's role/aim/purpose. Lambdadelta herself is not Sayo, she is not personally invested in revenge towards Natsuhi. Her main purpose is to play with Bern, but she said he put in lots of extra hints for Battler to understand Beato. So her role is another waypoint in understanding Beatrice, basically, which would fit as Ikuko's motivation as well. Play with the witch hunter community, leave extra hints for Touya. Of course, it is also possible that Touya did learn the truth before they started writing forgeries. There is one scene that might imply this: at the end of EP2 it is said Beatrice told Battler everything, and everything made sense to him. Conveniently right after this the games are written by Touya and Ikuko instead of Sayo. Quote:
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Thanks for reminding me that Lambda acknowledged Eva as a witch. I think this is because Eva made the effort to certainly never tell the truth to anyone in addition to what Lambda said in the coronation ceremony. Quote:
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I also think Rokkenjima Prime is not the only higher plane fragment, and would say that Higurashi's fragments, for example, are equal to Prime. Unless Higurashi was never more than a story (a book in Prime), meaning that Bernkastel is essentially just a cameo, the concept born from one story inserted to another. Which she kind of is, but I like to attribute our world as an even higher plane and Higurashi's status as just a story is only acknowledged in our world, but in the sea of fragments enveloping the world of all When They Cry those fragments are real and not inferior to Rokkenjima Prime. It could be possible to think of Ange's alternative ends as Prime's equals as well, the fragments within fragments structure only created by the catbox. Lion's fragment could possibly be included as well, because it's part of a bigger catbox, a higher plane. However, Higurashi's fragments came to being because Hanyuu created them every time she moved Rika back in time. This creation of new fragments to alter Ange's fate never happened in Umineko, so I'm inclined to believe Ange's alternative futures are still fragments within Prime, existing only on the level of thought. Other evidence for this is that Bernkastel claims it's impossible for Ange to survive if she jumps down from the building. However, Ange deciding if she jumps or not is a possible branching point that could result in two Rokkenjima Prime fragments of equal level, one where Ange dies and one where she lives on as Kotobuki Yukari. Quote:
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Thank you for the translation of the new chapter, haguruma! I thought the boat scene with Beato and Battler was coming up in this chapter, but it was the Trick End! Now I need to wait for another month... Not that this wasn't interesting, and I'm glad the Trick End was included in the manga. Quote:
After thinking things through today I realised the explosion accident and Kyrie being Battler's mother are knowledge commonly available outisde the catbox, so Touya should not be as stumped as Battler with Beatrice's last riddle in EP4 or her claiming that he is not Asumu's son. Touya shouldn't need to go through all the hurdles Battler did, but I still think connecting some of Battler's meta world actions with Touya in Prime is probably beneficial to the story. I also noticed an interesting thing about Virgilia. She is the one who guides Battler in purgatory towards Beatrice. She gives him hints on how to think and provides some red truths as well. In Prime, who would take on this role? Ikuko, of course, who bases this knowledge on Sayo's confession. There are hints towards this as well. She first appears in EP3, the first game that is not actually written by Sayo. In EP6, we learn that Virgilia knows Featherine. In EP7, only Battler and Virgilia are in the chapel as Battler lays the story he wrote for Beatrice in her coffin. Battler and Virgilia = Touya and Ikuko? |
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2015-03-21, 23:41
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Link #34986 | |||||
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Germany
Age: 39
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Spoiler for Chapter 35:
We have Ange with the Tokarev going to the right and Ange holding the present she got from Battler going to the left. Going by a completely non-magical explanation, we could also say that this is her waking up in the safety net. The next scene shows Ange quite bruised, lying in the safety net, a few stories below. Guess Bern should have actually double-checked if really nobody could be saved by such a safety net. As always, her research was kinda lacking, being satisfied with having the Red that Ange dies. Quote:
Featherine in this sense would actually be an amalgamation of Hachijô Tôya and Hachijô Ikuko into "the author" who chronicles these events. Quote:
 ). In the Trick-ending she throws it into the sea when Amakusa questions her on it, in the Magic-ending she holds unto it.Now this gives us two ways to read it: (1) Tohya sent this gift to Ange in an attempt to make her feel better about herself. She got it shortly before she went up the building, after reading Eva's diary, and she would hold unto it until shortly before arriving at Rokkenjima if that future were to come true. (2) Ange actually did go to the meta-world the moment she jumped off the ledge of that rooftop and the present is the one magical item that the people of that world bestowed upon her. I could see liking both of those options and it could serve as a nice catbox by itself...but I also wanna know what she got, and if maybe it's the key to something. Quote:
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The rest of it is all said by Featherine: Spoiler for Chapter 35:
I think it is interesting that she is looking at both the scene where Ange decides to change her life and the scene where Ikuko leaves the conference, both from an outsider's perspective. And then there is the golden rose that is featured now. We are actually shown what this golden rose is made from at the beginning of the chapter: Spoiler for Chapter 35:
The golden butterflies that all the pieces of the gameboard (including Battler) turn into are gathering and forming the golden rose. This rose is then taken by Featherine. But this is not the only thing she takes, because she is also shown to be still holding the key. It is this rose then that she throws into the sea of oblivion. Following this we are shown one last page: Spoiler for Chapter 35:
So yes, especially going by the characterization this chapter (and everything we know about her, including the damaged memory device) I'd say that, "Featherine using Ikuko as a vessel" is also indicative of Tohya using Ikuko as his voice to the outside world. |
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2015-03-22, 07:13
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Link #34987 | ||||
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Zero of the roulette
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Finland
Age: 30
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I was really surprised to see that gentle expression on Featherine, when she usually appears more distant. You could say this stems from Touya, but it could be Ryuukishi looking back at his own creation instead. Like this, those who will peek into your game will not die out completely. Those who will want to expose it just because the catbox cannot be opened will surely not cease to exist. He did not fully explain absolutely everything, so there would still be room for theories about Umineko. Because there is no way for someone to prove their interpretation is absolutely correct or Ryuukishi to prove he isn't lying, there will always be someone looking for a different answer. But if through this course there will emerge one who has truly understood the truth of your heart... In other words, if what you wished for will ever... At least you will be able to rest peacefully like this. Peacefully, at the deepest bottom of oblivion, you will surely be able to dream eternally. As long as there is someone who truly understands the tale, Beatrice will be happy. Even when Umineko is eventually forgotten by the world, as long as someone understood, the story can rest in peace. The golden rose might actually represent the tale of Umineko as a whole, given to us theatergoers by Ryuukishi-Featherine. The key could represent the final ???? with the truth about Hachijou Touya, that essentially acts as a key to unlock the actual story behind what happens in Umineko. In addition to Ryuukishi-Featherine, who is the ultimate ruler over Ryuukishi's creations, there is a piece version of her on a lower plane who affects the story as Ikuko and can also appear in her witch form. To fit the theory that Featherine is a combination of Touya and Ikuko, perhaps they eventually became connected on the meta plane but weren't like that at first, as Featherine appears to have existed before Umineko's events. While the memory device might double-function as a TIP to Touya's situation, I'm not sure if Lambdadelta is aware of Battler being alive as an amnesiac, but still she too knows about Featherine changing her personality and appearance at some point because of the memory device. Notice that it also says her appearance changed, which makes me think it's most likely connected to Hanyuu. Actually, if Hanyuu originally looked more like Featherine, her hair would be more similar to Rika's than Hanyuu's hair is. And if the horns were originally a memory device, it could also fit Kotohogushi-hen's futuristic ideas. Perhaps Ryuun-Ooku was actually the memory device? |
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2015-03-22, 07:50
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Link #34988 |
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a.k.a. Akari_House
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Somewhere near Seattle
Age: 53
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Great stuff...very glad to see the trick ending incorporated in this manner.
I was a little disappointed about the "package" though. I've always liked to think the "hidden" prize for the Cake Quizzes out of all the various serious and gag gifts was the mass-produced stuffed animal of Sakutarou, as it nicely works in with the unidentified thing that Ange found in Episode 4 and would explain why she was carrying it here at the end as well. The "two to close the doors" thing also nicely echoes the recurring theme that "it takes two to create a universe". I do like the apparent hint of possible collusion between Tohya/Ikuko and Eva that could be implied here. And I was pleased by how the red truth of Ange's death was answered much the way I had anticipated. I'm really quite excited to learn how the rest wraps up now. What remaining questions will be answered, and which ones will remain sealed with the catbox? I'm really fine either way at this point, but I'd love to see a few more things resolved as we make this final part of this long journey. Thanks for spending the time to share this, as always, Haguruma!
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2015-03-22, 10:39
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Link #34989 | |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2014
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 Yeah it's my problem not reading the manga.
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2015-03-22, 12:27
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Link #34990 | |||||||||||||||
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Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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They say when you're about to die your life flashes in front of you. In my mind what flashes in front of Ange as she jumped were instead her possibilities for her future. But well, maybe that's just me. Quote:
My pet theory is that Sayo was still alive but possibly wounded. Battler wanted to save her too but to carry with the a person with a bullet wound would lead to questions. Battler decided to risk escaping with the motorboat with Sayo while the storm was still ongoing, while Eva decided to hide in Kuwadorian. As they're close to the coast the boat capsized. Sayo's hurt so she can't swim and drown, Battler can't save her but somehow reaches the coast. As Battler never showed up again Eva assumed he and Sayo died. She's not sure though, she regrets forcing him to take such a decision and fears he might want revenge so she becomes paranoid. Yes, I know in the scene in which Beato and Battler escaped it was implied they waited for the end of the storm but Ikuko found Battler while it was still storming. Sure, it could be that the storm merely moved elsewhere but I wonder if we're meant to take the fact it's storming when he's found as a hint. It would also be more likely for Ikuko to take care of him if when she started doing it she had no idea he could be Ushiromiya Battler and, if she were to find him prior to the incident becoming known this would be possible. But well, it's just a pet theory. Quote:
In the manga Ange somehow find out about Confession around the time of her jump so it would make sense if it was Confession but it would make sense also sending her Twilight as it's a tale written for Ange. Quote:
Ange wants Battler back so he'll take care of her, Erika wants to posses Battler. Erika destroyed the candy trick in front of Maria, Ange denied Sakutarou. Erika is definitely a more negative, more twisted version of Ange, a version that has no love whatsoever while Ange still has some. In a way Ange is in between Erika and Kotobuki Yukari. Quote:
Only I can't find it anymore so maybe it was in another point? I saw that the manga switched a bit the order of the scenes so as to make them work better so it can be I've to search some other place... Of course this doesn't mean to insure that line will be left there when the manga will be printed into volumes but I'll say it's canon enough. Quote:
Honestly I'm never too sure how to take the Tsubasa tips. Some of them are clearly AU that couldn't have happened in the Umineko setting but that still offer us points to ponder so we can understand Umineko better so I think they're important... only I don't know what to dow ith them canon-wise. Apparently "Bern's letter" was written in August 2008 so when Banquet was released. My perplexity with Bern's letter is that the way she speaks to her "beloved friend" somehow doesn't match with her relationship with Featherine but as Featherine officially showed up in Dawn it can be that their relationship was merely changed a bit... or that the letter was reconned... or we'll never know what. But yes, if we take Bern's letter and assume it was directed to Featherine it seems it was Bern who purposefully involved Featherine... which doesn't seem to match with Featherine's stance in Ep 6... but Bern doesn't seem to have other people she could consider friends... (unless they merely weren't shown or were retconned away)... LOL, it's sort of a mess. Quote:
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For Ikuko to find Battler can look like a 'coincidence' but actually if currents works a certain way it makes sense that Battler, Confession, and possibly even more bottles that Sayo tossed in the sea, ended up near Ikuko's house because that destination would have higher possibilities of being reached for them. LOL, Ep 8 even hints at currents when Tohya points out, after reading Ikuko's work that she should have explained how currents work a little better. So to us it might look as a 'coincidence' when actually it's merely the result with the higher possibility to happen. Quote:
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Of course it's entirely possible that he's actually not involved in writing the forgeries but that he only reads them and didn't solve them till Ep 5. The first tale Ikuko handed him reminded me of Umineko so it can be it's a hint that Tohya is merely a reader in this case. Quote:
In short Lambda made a game that, even though worked the same way as Beatrice, didn't contain the same spirit, her heart and while her game offered additional hints about how things worked, it basically went farther from the solution as the motive. Hum... I'll try to summarize my problem so that instead that discussing bits we can get a general picture. Your theory confuses me on how the forgeries would have birth. As Ryukishi said in order for him to write Umineko he took special care into designing Sayo, her inner workings and development. In order to do so Ryukishi had to know the truth (or better decide about it as to him Sayo is only a character). As a result I think that whoever wrote Ep 3 and the following had to know the truth as well. You said Quote:
The same goes for Tohya who in your theory reaches the truth only after reading Ep 5. Now, let's assume that she merely used Ep 1 & 2 as a basis and her theories to build up Ep 3-5. However her forgeries contain a lot of hints to the truth that she couldn't have known if she hadn't known the truth as well as the right culprit, the right method and the right motive. This is a little more than theory making, is perfectly guessing facts you had no way of knowing. So, as I said, I feel I'm probably misunderstanding something in your theory. It might be I'm missing a transition between the meta and prime as your Ikuko seems to move between them... but if she's merely dropping in the meta and copying Beatrice and Lambda's games for her forgeries she doesn't need Tohya's help for them. Quote:
So I don't think they're really doing a mean thing by letting others read the messages. And, as said before, if the currents of the sea tend to push things from Rokkenjima to a place close to where Hachijo lives yes, it's convenient but is also not surprising. Also, the nickname who leads to them might be merely because Ikuko hoped that this would lead Ange to them. It's said she wanted Ange and Tohya to meet and that Ange got interested in Tohya due to the forgeries and that the meeting didn't take place merely because Tohya wasn't up to it yet so the nickname might not be the Hachijos trying to take credit for something they didn't write but Ikuko trying to help Ange to find her brother in a subtle way. Quote:
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2015-03-22, 14:59
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Link #34991 |
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Join Date: Mar 2015
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Awful disgusting and disturbing solution! NO WONDER RYUKISHI WOULNDT DIRECTLY REVEAL IT! the following text should not be read by anyone under 18 please!
Kind of like a disclaimer now: Im not a pervert and Im not a sadist XD I really thought about it a long time if I should even write down the following points cause I find them pretty…terrible. For whatever reason – I still decided to post it. The locked-room and the battler is-older-than-18-theories are pretty much confirmed by the following. If you didnt read how I came to the conclusion - Ive written it down in recent posts. Either Im completely wrong – but I find this hard to believe since everything fits now, or what really happened in prime is kind of…awful. I havent had access to internet the last two days so I wrote this text offline – that means I still have to read other comments that were sent before I wrote this post,I especially still wanted to take a look at the higurashi-meta-solution by bluemail  because this theory could actually fill in the last open questions. I thought about what I wrote before, and though there are still some things that I must leave open (maybe only until I take a look at the other meta-theories), I think that if I give it some more thoughts, this will lead to a “satisfying” (not at all!!!) solution.I stick to the following points I already explained in the previous posts: -Battler was locked in a room by beato in prime -Beato died while he was locked in -afterwards Battler spent years in the room The rest I mentioned before still holds true more or less. I still think beato did it partly to help battler, beato didn’t know what happened to him in the room after she died, and the meta is probably a world of thought (but not just a delusion, if the “higurashi-theory” is correct) The following shows Im probably right. We were asking ourselves how beato died. And I thought she might have died of blood-loss. This is most probably wrong. Because its clearly stated in umineko who killed beato- for that we have the whole 7th episode -the result was: Only the one who created Beato could have killed her. It was not kyrie, not eva, nobody but “Sayo” herself. There is also a big hint we all probably didn’t pay much attention to: In episode 4, once Battler says - as an answer to Beatos test - that he absolutely cant remember anything about a sin, in the VN there are two beatos who talk to each other. The first one is giving up and the other one is taking on the job. While the first one seems to be on the verge of tears and lets the 2nd beato take over, the 2nd beato is far more cruel – she immediately burns kinzo alive and threatens all the other furniture. Shes achieving her goal in a much rougher way – or better: has given up on the original goal to make battler remember. So in prime, beato spent the whole second day questioning battler and asking him to solve her riddle, but he cant do it (partly thanks to the alcohol:S). Since they say the time limit is 24h the second day, I assume that this is the point when beato is killed by “sayo”. If yet another “beato” (the second more cruel one) takes over, or if it is the true yasu-personality, I cant say. But Sayo surely gave up on the identity of the original beato. From this point on Beato is dead. What happens to battler afterwards, she doesnt know. In any case, this dead beato enters the meta now. First things first: -Episode 6 is a big clue. After Battler got the ring by Erika, he is only a “puppet” and his mind is locked in the creepy room where he once again experiences the things he previously experienced, just slightly different. How to say it: The meta is the same. Battler in the meta experiences what he experienced in prime,just slightly different. I already said that everything that happens in the meta is hinting at prime (the tests, beato dying, eva surviving,…). Its really not much different from alice in wonderland after all. -So after battlers soul is locked up by Erika after getting the ring, he cant control his body at all anymore and finds himself in some crazy room he has no memories about how he got there. The meta starts the same – battler has no memories about how he got there, hes only a "spirit body" there (=just the soul) and he completely forgot everything that happened in prime. Afterwards he re-experiences everything in the meta, just as he re-experiences everything that happened before in the creepy room in ep 6. -battler can get out of the meta-world (bern&Ryhkishi) once he shows that he understood everything about beatos heart. So the meta-world battler is in is keeping battlers mind locked up, and once he proves he understood everything he can get out of the meta -just like in ep 6 battler is locked in the creepy room, and he can get out of the creepy room once the kanon/Shannon-trick was shown. -battler can get back to his body once he solves beatos riddle in the meta. And in prime at that time, he will also be let out of the room he is locked in. Before I was wondering about who it was that would let him out – genji? Ikuko?, its sayo that lets him out, just like its sayo in form of kanon who lets battler out in ep 6. And here comes the really baaaad part I really have a problem with to even write down. Im not taking responsibility for it! – the story is just written that way that I have to come to this conclusion. Everything in meta is a re-experience of prime. battlers mind and soul are separated in ep 6, and something similar happened in prime. Battler CAN make it back alive in prime, but he first has to get out of the meta-world. Erika before the marriage: “if you want to do anything about it, please get yourself out of your locked room (=meta-world – that’s where his mind is confined) first.” Beato wants battler to win in the meta by making him solve the puzzle of her heart, and not by just denying witches, because she wants to help him to get back (well partly at least, she also sometimes shows her hatred for him) He did it in the end and he could come back to his body, but that all just happened years later, just like he spent years in the locked room in ep 6 before the riddle was solved. Ok, and now the question: how did it come to the point that battlers mind and body are separated in prime? A: That probably happened because of a kind of trauma. we can only assume that something similar happened as shown in ep 6. Now, what I completely neglected were the events of the marriage itself – this one too has to have a correspondent event in prime. Erika says something like: “Im gonna lock up your body, mind and soul with this ring and you will be a living doll, Im not even gonna let you die”. That is probably what happened in prime too – something happened that caused battlers mind to be locked up in the meta-world, while his body still lived on in prime, and Sayo didn’t let his "body" die, even though battlers “heart already died” (ep 6). So at this point battler is pretty much dead (although technically hes still alive). his heart “died” once this something happened , just like his heart died once he got the ring by Erika in ep6. he enters meta in prime <-> he enters the creepy room in ep 6- he re-experiences everything in the meta <-> he re-experiences everything in the creepy room. There are tons of parallels. In prime, while the years passed, battlers body got older while his mind stayed young in the meta – that results in the discrepance touya later notices when he meets ikuko. Here comes, I don’t want to go on writing now XD Again – what is the “trauma”? Must be something similar to what happened in ep 6. Now I really do not want to spell it out, but whoever has seen the scene with the ring in ep 6 cant tell me he didn’t feel the HEAVY sexual implications this had. I mean the manga even drew the pictures accordingly. this is NOT me being a pervert or something, Im just a normal adult that happens to think like this once something like that is shown. It’s a perfectly normal – and I assume intended – association. If someone is putting saliva on something to make something “stick in” more easily, I cant help but think we’re talking about something completely different here, not just a ring and a finger. I don’t want to spell it out. there exists a torture device, a ring, that does exactly that and works in the way erika described it in the wedding. it looks like the ring erika gives him with the spikes on the inside and also looks something like the "ring" in the picture we see in manga ep 4 of the room under the kuwadorian, and in reality its fastened with a screw, the same way as erika uses the diamond of the ring to drive the spikes into his finger. if you want to know, google it and imagine the rest yourself please…i wont describe it any more... In ep 6 its said, the “curse” that hurts him would hurt him forever, but at the same time, the "ring" would take away his heart that would allow him to understand the pain – thats just the same as what happened in prime. His mind was “locked up” in the meta-world after “getting the ring” and his body kept on living in the normal world. In any case, this “ring” is the cause that body and mind separated – its the same for ep 6 as it is for prime. In ep 6 its a wedding ring, in prime its the xxx ring. the comment about him screaming after he got the ring from erika and noone hearing him is referrring to prime when there is noone but sayo and him on the island at that time, so noone hears him... After that, probably something similar happened in Prime as Erika threatened him with before she gave him the ring. because part of erikas prediction definitely came true - in prime battler did indeed "live" on the same way erika sad he would "live" afterwards. after the ring battlers mind is already in the meta-world, so he really is kinda like a puppet then. After he solved the puzzle in the meta-world, he could leave this world and go back to his body and finally leave the room under the kuwadorian. With these kind of memories, no wonder Touya coulndt accept them and was afraid of becoming "battler" again...Again: Id rather not think so, but the sexual connotations were so striking and everthing matched, we also find the real life evidence that looks and works EXACTLY the same!! I couldnt think otherwise... Heres what I still have to think about: Probably after he solved the riddle, beato somehow “revives” in sayo, just as she revives in ep 6. Might be that the “we” touya later refers to when he talks about how he got away from the island really is sayo and battler, and she led him to this place after she let him out of the room. He wants to take her with himself, but she doesn’t allow herself to go with him, we know the rest. OR: this scene never happened and it was just the ending battler wrote. touya confuses the memories of the meta where battler wrote this with what happened in real life and there was some other way he got off the island. and now, once again, we have suspect no 1 ikuko. theres something wrong with her. maybe she didnt even "find" the confessions-bottle. theres also something off with the car-accident. she must also be more or less the same age when they meet for the first time -just barely marriagable. So there we have the question again-who is ikuko? Im even not excluding the possibility that she in fact IS sayo. but Id need to look for more hints first. The magic ending with battler and beato we see is still the magic ending battler thought of, as it takes place in 1986, and both of them look still the same, so either: its a decoration of truth, that battler wrote or: its a fantasy battler wrote that has no tie to reality at all. I still don’t know from what point on battler is becoming touya. for reasons,Im almost inclined to say once he “dies” in 1986 thanks to the ring, battler really is dead and he becomes touya once he manages to solve the riddle in the meta and can get out. but its also possible that it really was battler that made it out alive and just the accident with the boat made him finally lose all his memories and become touya. but if that were so, then why does battler talk of himself in ep 8 as “dead” if at that point in time he will still make it out alive? - (the meta ends before he makes it out of the locked room) I also have to ask who Ange is in the meta- but I think we can solve that with the higurashi-theory the meta is not just a delusion but really a world you have access to if you “die” or are just at the point of dying or something like that.ange probably really met battler in the meta - she as the 18 year old ange, battler as the 18 year old battler, and battler in ep 8 knows he already "died" in the locked room so he says he doesnt exist in the future. Like I said , with the rest, Ill still have to think about it, but I don’t doubt that this will be solvable as well.So its Ikuko=Sayo after all? So right now i think it goes like that: battler in the meta wrote the dawn-ending for beato, so they could make it both out alive in a world of 1986, where nothing related to the locked room happened. beato doesnt want that - she wants battler to go back to his body and to prime and to live like a human, and her world is the world of the witches and the dead. That would mean that beato never revived in prime even after battler solved the riddle, cause she is already dead. then in this world battler wanted to create for both of them, she rejected this world and commited suicide. here we have kanon ep 6 kind of pleading comment to battler after having saved him from the locked room: "will you not go back?". this comment doesnt make much sense in the context it is said, so it probably refers to this. but battler didnt want to let her die alone. he drowned with her, and only a soul who lost all his memories made it back to battlers body. this person confuses later on meta and what happened in real life. since beato never revived, someone else must have helped him out - and here we have ikuko again...ikuko might even be the personality of sayo that takes over when beato died in 1986. that would explain why she isnt married, because she already considers herself married, and also why she has no contact to her family. also why she lives in a mansion with the view to the sea- shed have to travel from there to rokkenjima on a regular basis...it also explains other coincidences...then battler/touya would live together with one hell of a screwed up woman - what a happy ending...this would make berns red truth even come true, that the story would not end well, cause that would be a **** ending!!! ikuko would have carried him off the island in a boat, which would be a similar situation to what happened with kinzo and beatrice. and that would explain the rabbits comment that battler is "playing the role of the bride" (ep6), and it also fits with the "kinzo(=beato) is having fun with beatrice(=battler) in the torture-room" (ep 4 krauss) well, this last paragraph might still be revised. 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2015-03-22, 16:10
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Link #34993 | ||||||||||||
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Zero of the roulette
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Finland
Age: 30
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The final form of the forgery was probably decided by Ikuko, as she actually wrote everything down and could add her own flavors and hints. Touya probably contributed a lot to the work with an insider perspective, will to explore the good sides of his family and alternate theories Ikuko already having reached the truth couldn't provide. Quote:
Now I believe Ikuko reading Confession makes more sense than she not reading it. In EP6 Ikuko says that she is confident that she has reached the truth because she has "completely understood all the stories". Just because she reads Confession doesn't mean she has reached the truth, she also has to understand all the stories as she said. Ikuko read Legend and Turn first and created theories about them. After Ikuko found Confession and read it, she went back to Legend and Turn, understood how everything connected together and became someone capable of creating forgeries in Beatrice's name and using the red truth. Touya didn't read Confession, either because he wanted to solve it himself or because it would cause him physical harm. EP5's creation is still a bit weird. You could think of it as purely Lambdadelta's creation in the meta world, but Ange claims to have read an End of the Golden Witch written by Itouikukuro. Is it indeed Ikuko peeking into the meta world and writing down Lambda and Bern's game? I like to believe Lambdadelta and Bernkastel can act autonomously from Featherine, but could it be that everything is controlled by Ikuko's thought processes when writing End so that the meta world version ends up following? Which would make EP5 a result of Featherine actively using her power as the creator. In the end everything is basically written by Featherine, but the creation of End would be the only point where this is apparent in addition to Lambda's death, which is a bit strange. You could call it cheating too. Can you understand what I'm getting at? Quote:
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2015-03-22, 17:42
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Link #34994 | ||
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Concerning the future world, here are some questions I would like to ask:
So does this mean that in the manga, the trick ending still happened but in a different timeline? So pretty much there are multiple Anges? Then as Ange made her choice, she saw it as she followed the magic ending route? Does this mean that the Ange that Amakusa talked to not becoming a child soldier is the Ange that headed for the trick ending? Then the Ange that chose the magic ending is another Ange that was holding Battler's gift? The one that fell on the safety net and survived. Either way does this mean that Ange definitely dies in 1998 where in the trick timeline she was more or less missing and could have possibly died through some unknown means (e.g. died of starvation, lost at sea, or even went at Rokkenjima and got killed by her aunt and the Yakuza) and in the magic timeline, through Okonogi's help, she was able to fake her death in the same way that Okonogi faked Takano Miyo's death? Also, does the event where Ikuko trolls everyone by revealing the truth takes place in both timelines AFTER Ange faked her death (magic timeline) or really died (trick timeline). Because it seems to me that after Ange read Eva's diary, she died, either on the building (magic timeline) or at sea (trick timeline). Then afterwards, the nurse collected the diary and had it sent to Ikuko. When would Ange in the real world would have read CotGW? Quote:
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Concerning Ange and Erika: Could it be that the real Erika Furudo is not actually a mystery fan? Could the Erika we know be a sort of avatar of Ange's to try and solve the forgeries? Yes, Erika is Bernkastel's piece, but is it possible that in the meta-sense, Erika and Ange could have been perceived as separate but on one body? Could it be that at some point after Ange killed her fantasy friends, she took it upon herself to try and solve some forgeries using Knox's Decalogue? Could Dlanor be a sort of replacement for Mammon, with Ange going from fantasy to mystery? Because it seems like after killing her imaginary friends is when she stopped believing in fantasy, which is similar to Erika in the sense that they don't believe in magic. Also, in EP6, Erika literally called Dlanor PAPER, which could mean that Dlanor is a piece of paper (or if Ange is somewhat connected to Erika a page in the grimoire) in which Knox's Decalogue is written on it? Last edited by Leslie Chow; 2015-03-22 at 18:01. |
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2015-03-22, 19:05
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Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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This bit made me wonder... Quote:
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In the diary she can write that Natsuhi was killed by incident and the same happened to Krauss and that she got rid of Kyrie and Rudolf because they were murderers who tried to kill her and would have tried to do so again so she's sort of telling herself it was self defence and she blasted the island away because she didn't want Ange to find out the horrible stuffs her parents did but if she forced Battler to leave the island while there was a storm because she refused to take Sayo with them and they didn't make it... then it's murder without any excuse. It would tie nicely with Ep 3 in which Eva shot Battler. She would have forced him to take a decision that, she knew, was suicidal, and all to cover up her own crime. She might have told him 'if we carry with us a girl that has a bullet wound we won't be able to cover this anymore and your sister will know what your parents did' and he might have agreed that in order to cover up things he would have to find another way to bring Sayo to safety and therefore we'll have them agreeing to keep everything hidden and 'closing the door' but well... I think she would have known that the other way was so dangerous it was almost suicide and that covering up the truth for Ange wouldn't be worth her brother's life. In "10 little indians" one of the murderers is considered a murderer because during war he sent a man in a mission from which he couldn't possibly return alive. When he ends up on the island he's old and he's sort of paranoid. It fits with Eva even if she ended up much worse than this. Ange's accusation she was a murderer she would have stuck even harder due to this. But well, again I'm theorizing. Quote:
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Of course it can be that Tohya actually didn't put it in the same type of bottle Sayo used but on... let's say a tape in a small tape recorder. Confession would fit as a present because in the meta when Ange jumped she had it but Twilight would as well because I'd like it if Ange got the chance to read it... even if it could entirely be that everything happened in her mind. But yes, technically the present should be from Kinzo. It would be interesting though if like Sayo disguised herself as Maria, Tohya, when sending Ange that present, disguised himself as Kinzo, whom he resembled really a lot, especially in his Tohya form. In a way that could have put Ange over the edge litterally as getting a present from your deceased grandfather (in Ange's time they know that Kinzo died in 1984) might upset you... Quote:
Her complicate feelings likely translated in her suffering in even stronger migraines of the ones she was used at (it's also said that her migraines were an inborn condition) but accepting them because she believed that what she did benefitted Jessica. Quote:
That is or there was another character that got scrapped out. After all we know that Umineko underwent many changes from the original plan so it wouldn't be surprising if this was just one of them. Quote:
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In a way it makes sense. Ikuko and Tohya are a duo that writes under Tohya's name likely to hide Ikuko's involvement but Tohya's name isn't his own and the surname is Ikuko's so in a way Hachijo Tohya hides also Tohya's true identity. They applied an extra layer to it and used it to hide Sayo's identity as well, making her the third member of their writing group. Dawn isn't released so it's not like they're trying to take advantage of the success of the first two to release it and... I've no idea about End. End is pretty bizzarre and Beatrice doesn't acknowledge it as her own (after all it's Lambda's game). My take is that 'reaching the shore' meant they were found and given to the press. Of course it could also be that Tohya and Ikuko found Banquet and Alliance while having a trip near the coast in a boat... but what I tend to think is that she meant is just that they were given to the public. Beatrice claims authorship for those two, they're not only in Confession when she thinks at her possibilities but also when she confront Battler earlier on about how she wrote game after game trying to think to a game that would satisfy her. But well, regardless of them writing them using Confession or them finding them I think the goal was to spread them without at the same time raise too much noise on them and mixing them to the other tales in the net would have probably worked better. Also, in a way, this would have made Beatrice sort of alive again as she could post her own tales and challenge the others to realize who she was. Last but not least one of those tales pinned the blame on Eva. Releasing it as a message in the bottle would increase suspicions on Eva while the fact that the two previous messages shifted the blame away from her was working in Eva's favour. But well, maybe I'm reading too much into it. the manga is really changing quite a lot of things so it might end up clearing up if the tales come from somewhere but instead than being handed to the press (and the police) Quote:
He's described as having talented for mysteries of the unortodox type and that he "tried turning famous mysteries from across the world on their head, twisting those ideas into something new." so he seems more like the person that helps with mystery than the person that helps with characterization... and if you consider even if we assume he remembered his past he hadn't been seeing most of his family for 6 years and didn't know the 'inside working' of Rokkenjima that well he can't really help much with characterizations and details. If things went as in the Teaparty he didn't even get to explore much the place so he might not remember there's a storage room for gardening tools or how's the servant room or where the keys are kept and if they've tags or not, if they're recognizable or not, if there's a closed well or not. Tohya says that Quote:
He can't offer tricks, as they require knowing the culprit, he can't really offer a good characterization as it requires knowing well the characters. The best he could do is to say 'I didn't guess who the culprit is' but this might not necessarily say that the mistery was good as the same can happen if the mistery is poorly written and hints aren't enough or too misleading. That's why I prefer to think they found two more messages... and then, when they couldn't find them anymore Ikuko tried writing one on her own but it turned out messy because he refused to help and Ikuko, not being Sayo, ended up making Sayo OOC. But well, this still doesn't work well because it assumes she either hadn't read Confession or hadn't understood it even if it spelled out the motive rather clearly. That is or she had a reason to change the motive. After all she discussed about motives with Tohya... but I fear I've too little material to come up with a convincing answer, expecially since there's really too few info about Ikuko and her character. Quote:
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In a way it's sort of unfair (everyone can solve them with Confession) but it makes sense. Quote:
Though if Ikuko figured out he's Battler she might feel that, as a act of kindness toward Sayo, it would be nicer toward her to let him solve the stories instead than handing him the solution. After all she wanted him to solve them. So I like to think Ikuko took advantage of the fact Tohya might not remember well about her having found Confession for causing Confession to temporally disappear. By the time of Ep 7 he finally solved everything and she finally let him read it... so in a way Confession is Clair and Tohya is Will. Quote:
To use Erika's words maybe it was a third rate mistery written by a nobody under Itouikukuro's nick. And the "real" Itouikukuro might have answered it by rewriting it in a better way so as to prove the other was a fake ence the two solutions. But again, we don't really know. Quote:
Also this is one of the variants of the arms of the Alighieri family. Does it ring a bell? ^_- Also there's the whole idea that Beatrice sits atop the purgatory, the seven sins, Virgilius leading Dante/Battler through hell to Beatrice, the rose simbolism can be tied to the rose in heaven in the DC, and by the way Dante means 'lasting' 'durable' which fits for Battler's character. Kyrie (whose name can be seen also as a reference at the Kyrie eleison) and Maria can also work as reference as well as Ange (someone in the past also said that Asumu had some religious meaning but I can't remember it). A Rodolfo (Rudolf) and a Nicolò (Krauss might actually be Klaus that's the short for Nicholas in Italian Nicolò) also shows up in the Divina Commedia and the same applies for Eva. LOL, reading Umineko fills me with wish to re-read the Divina Commedia in search of references. Even the goats attempting to eat who lose and then the golden land reminds me of Lucifer eating the sinners at the end of the Hell. And hey, the purgatory is an island like Rokkenjima... though it's also a mount while Rokkenjima seems flat... but well hell is underground and the room of the gold where the siblings kill each other is underground... and Rokkenjima is covered by woods like the woods in which Dante got lost... and by the way, Rosa got lost in the woods... And on the door of hell there was a writing same as on the door of the church that leads the way to the room of the gold/hell. And what about the lynx (allegory of lust), the lion (pride) and a wolf (greed)? Lust and greed are tied to Rudolf (by the way in the beginning Kinzo said to his kids that in the woods there were wolves... and Rudolf wanted to hunt them) and pride and greed to Kyrie (also we've the Lion's statue and... well, Lion). They cause Dante to fall from a cliff... and Virgilio says they'll be killed by a hunting dog (Eva?). LOL, someone please stop me, I'm likely seeing too much in what are very likely only coincidences... like how the Castiglione also show up in the DC... Quote:
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But I think that what the manga wanted to suggest is that Ange speculates on her possible fate and in her mind depicted all those Anges and ultimately decided to take the path that would lead her to become the last one. But I'll give a definitive answer after I've seen the manga. Quote:
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Last edited by jjblue1; 2015-03-22 at 19:18. |
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2015-03-23, 02:35
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Link #34996 | ||||||||||||
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Zero of the roulette
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Finland
Age: 30
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I think the two Beatrices that talk on the balcony represent the character Beatrice and Sayo herself, the true person behind the crime. Sayo is devastated when Battler cannot remember his promise, and the character Beatrice takes over and carries the game to its conclusion. Quote:
While it is peculiar that Touya feels older than he should, it might just be psychological. Here are some of the problems I see with your theory. One, it basically makes Battler go through the meta story twice for no reason, if he again loses his memory after solving the game on the island. Two, even if Eva was rescued from Kuwadorian, they never found Battler. It's true it might not be that simple to find the underground area, but still. Three, Beatrice lost the game when the siblings solved the epitaph. Four, Beatrice was probably at least wounded so she might not have survived for that long. It is also said in red that Beatrice died in October of 1986. Five, it is heavily implied that Battler did not solve the game before Beatrice died, so she couldn't be the one to let him out of the room. Six, what would Battler eat to live that long in a cell? I guess it's devil proof that there is a massive food storage in Kuwadorian, but no one really even uses the place any more. Quote:
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It's true that "her own biological child could not have become the heir if she had accepted Lion" might factor into it. Quote:
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2015-03-23, 04:49
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Link #34997 | |
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2015-03-23, 10:38
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Link #34998 | |
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Zero of the roulette
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Finland
Age: 30
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Touya might have strenghtened him with EP5, but he does not control Black Battler, who is a combination of Battlers from all the forgeries that pin him as the culprit. In Forgery no.xxx Black Battler implies he quickly tires of game boards that do not establish "a Battler that can be the culprit", but if someone creates a game board that does, it will surely be forgiven. Because there is room to establish a Battler that can be the culprit, Touya will be eternally tormented by theories that make "him" the culprit and go further away from Beatrice's heart, also strenghtening Beatrice's existence as a heartless witch. I'd say an ever-strenghtening Black Rosa that can use black truth was also born at some point as a combination of all the Rosatrice theories, and Ryuukishi is trying to weaken her and similar entities with the EP8 manga with Confession of the Golden Witch and other additions. In the manga, the battle for the Golden Land involves black versions of the characters and Black Battler is actually killed with a red truth from Beatrice that says Ushiromiya Battler is not the culprit. Reading haguruma's translation of an older chapter, I found Lambdadelta's thoughts about Featherine: "Featherine Augustus Aurora... The legendary Great Witch. She is on the level of a Creator within the world of the witches, a witch who has arrived in domains forbidden to touch. She once died of the illness of boredom that kills witches, but with the help of the witch she keeps as a cat, Bern, she was reborn... So, just like we witches look down on humans from a higher sphere and ridicule them as mere pieces, she laughs at and looks down upon even the realm of us witches from an even higher world...!! A witch returned to life from the kingdom of gods....!! I can “certainly” not win..." It says she was reborn because of Bern, which I think was through the letter that invited her to take a look at Beatrice's game. It also seems to establish the world of witches as the highest realm before the realm of gods. I'm not sure if it refers to Prime as a realm everything originates from, or if it references our world directly, but my interpretation is the latter. 1. Our world / Realm of gods - Creators, Theatergoers 1.5 World of witches / The sea of fragments - Great Witches, Voyagers 2. Rokkenjima Prime - Humans 2.5 Purgatory and the Golden Land- Ideas, Fictional beings 3. Game Boards - Pieces 1, 2 and 3 are physical realms. 1.5 and 2.5 are metaphysical realms. Oblivion is the state of not existing anywhere. I'm basing this hierarchy on how information flows between them. Something lower in the hierarchy cannot know what happens in a higher realm unless a being from a higher realm decides to share their knowledge. For example, humans cannot know their future, but it is possible for voyagers to find a fragment that shows what happens to that human in the future. Individuals can freely move up and down up to their level of their existence. A higher being can promote a lower being up to their own level. Metaphysical beings need a medium, a vessel, to interact with a physical realm. A great witch can use a human as their vessel by affecting their thoughts, a human can promote a fictional being to a human by acting as them. Higher beings have the ability to create fragments containing lower physical realms. A creator can create a fragment, a human can write a story. The process affects the metaphysical realm between, making it reflect the creation process. Of course a piece on a game board can also write a story. It would create a fragment on physical realm 4, affecting metaphysical realm 3.5. And if we suppose gods exist in our world, they exist as metaphysical beings on level 0.5, and physically on level 0. It can expand infinitely in both directions. Physical realm does not mean fantasy cannot exist in it. If the world is set up to be fantasy, fantasy creatures can physically exist in it. If it is mystery, they cannot. On a mystery game board fantasy creatures need sufficient vessels to act, but they can be shown as physically existing until the game board is established as a mystery. What this means in practice: Ryuukishi creates Rokkenjima Prime in the realm of gods. The creation of Rokkenjima Prime means all the events that happened, are happening and will happen in that world. This predetermines the events that will happen in the world of witches. If Bernkastel is supposed to have anything to do with that fragment, as she does, her actions will be commanded by the creation of this fragment. When Ryuukishi wishes to participate in the world as Ikuko, Featherine revives as his avatar in the world of witches. In Rokkenjima Prime, Sayo imagines Beatrice existence and thus creates a version of her on the level of ideas, that combines with ideas other people have of this Beatrice. She promotes this Beatrice to a human by acting like her, strenghtening her existence by making more people believe in her. She writes game boards that claim Beatrice exist that are read by many people and it again affects the character of Beatrice on the level of ideas. Because she makes the true events of the time period she claims Beatrice existed in a catbox, it is harder for people to weaken her. The catbox creates a container that makes it appear as if the events of the game board and the Golden Land existed on the level of humans. Higurashi's fragments exist on the same level as Rokkenjima Prime, as a new one was created by Hanyuu every time Rika died and time was rewound. It's also possible Featherine created new fragments detailing Ange's different futures, but it's more likely that these fragments exist on a lower plane instead. |
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2015-03-23, 16:39
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Link #34999 |
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The True Culprit
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
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Speaking of Black Battler, an interesting facet of his character I don't see much discussion on is how similar to eva-Beatrice he really is. In his story mode in Ougon Musou Cross, he's paired up with Shannon, and all his dialog and behavior is about taking the blame and going out of his way to assure Shannon that 'she's blameless' and he 'won't let anyone blame her', telling her to just sit quietly and do whatever he commands, before he finally kills her at the end, saving her for last.
Despite laughing while carrying Shannon's dead body, his maniacal laughter clearly dissolves into near sobbing as he declares himself the culprit... Despite everything, Black Battler is still a character that loves Yasuda Sayo. He can only express that love in a single form... Tohya Hachijou isn't the only one writing about Black Battler, but I do think he might have provided the original spark with episode 5, where Battler is unambiguously an accomplice atleast. Meta-Battler defeated Erika with an alternate human theory that exonerated Natsuhi, but we were not told what this was. Did Tohya offer Battler on the altar of sins to exonerate another? In so doing, did he come to regret it, and was unable to seal the pandora's box he opened? What is the key, unifying trend between all the Beatrices? It is to martyr oneself to take the sins and blame off of another person.
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2015-03-23, 17:13
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I've always liked the idea that Battler being shoot had to mean something more than just him dying on that gameboard. And in a way Battler gets killed again in Ep 6, by himself. So while in Ep 3 the blame is placed on Eva, who might have forced him to take a dangerous decision, in Ep 6 Battler places the blame on himself, as after all he was the one who decided. But well, of course Battler's death might merely symbolically represent how Battler, by leaving the Ushiromiya, technically killed 'Ushiromiya Battler' temporally. So maybe I'm just letting myself being carried away. Quote:
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So yes, while End shows a certain knowledge of who the culprit was and how it worked it also shows it didn't understand it at all. I think that it fits Lambda, as Lambda looks like the person who would think revenge is a good motive (even though Lambda can be a romantic as well) but it fail as a good intepretation of the motive. Quote:
I understand that getting the truth in small doses would probably be better for him but the forgeries seems more harmful than just the truth so I think if the purpose is to spare him some pain they're going at it the wrong way. Quote:
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That's sort of why I wonder if actually there were two End, one which was poorly written and that's basically Bern's side version of the story (or if you prefer the version of a witch hunter) and one that's well written, respectful of all the rules and that's Lambda/Battler version of the story (or if you prefer Tohya's version of End). But well, I don't think we'll ever get an answer to this speculation. Quote:
LOL, I guess that scene is a catbox! ^_- Quote:
Interesting enough he doesn't acknowledge End as one of the forgeries in which he had a role, talking only of Land, Trinity and Bern's game (which I guess is the one in Twilight). Well, black truth can refer to black text but I think the overall meaning is that he won't offer theories (blue truth) certain (red truth) or beliefs (gold truth) but just a story, a series of fact those interpretation is subjective. I might be wrong though. (also I honestly would love to see more about BB as I find him very intriguing... *sigh* I wish Ryukishi were to release Land and Trinity...) Quote:
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