Character Discussion - Suzaku

[MonkeyDude]

Originally Posted by Mr.Mo

Just wondering but would you call the murderer of your lover/wife a friend?



I don't think he himself knows what he wants to do. I think he pretty much accepted that "Ok, I will help everyone as much as possible by showing the racists that we can do what they can do".

Err they were lovers? I thought it was just a budding relationship cut short by Lelouch. I think the only reason he even liked Euphemia is due to the naivete they both shared. And I would call that person a murderer plain and simple. Of course I would probably ask why he/she did such a thing.

If he doesn't know what to do, then why sell out his friend in exchange for power? Again what has Suzaku done to help anyone other than himself? He has done nothing except let other people do the work for him. Not exactly changing the system, more like letting the system work for him.

@VCV
He couldn't resist the cookies

[Mr.Mo]

Originally Posted by MonkeyDude

Err they were lovers? I thought it was just a budding relationship cut short by Lelouch. I think the only reason he even liked Euphemia is due to the naivete they both shared. And I would call that person a murderer plain and simple. Of course I would probably ask why he/she did such a thing.

If he doesn't know what to do, then why sell out his friend in exchange for power? Again what has Suzaku done to help anyone other than himself? He has done nothing except let other people do the work for him. Not exactly changing the system, more like letting the system work for him.

@VCV
He couldn't resist the cookies

I'm not the one to argues cause I don't feel strongly about this but Suzaku and Euphie expressed their feeling for each other before the incident. They were in love.

I wouldn't consider the person that lied to me, killed many people, including most importantly my lover, a friend. Hence, selling him out to further my goals wouldn't mean anything to me.

I already said what he has done. Him just being a KoR shows others that numbers are capable but of course this doesn't mean that Brits will change their views or that they will accept the numbers.

I'll agree that he hasn't done anything directly to help them. Infect, he aided in punishing/conquering/killing them(the numbers, including 11s).

That's why I said I don't feel strongly about this. He is like lost XD. I'm hoping he starts to be interesting again and try to achieve his goals or settle on a resolution, w/e it maybe, anything is fine because Suzaku feels like dead weight right now.

[DN24]

Err they were lovers?

Euphemia "ordered" him to love her,remember? And Suzaku sound very happy as he said "yes,your highness" too.Not very normal but cute,I guess.

Of course I would probably ask why he/she did such a thing.

Of course Suzaku also asked that question,what he receive for an answer was "It's was the past,forget it" (while she died just a few hours ago) and "you killed your dad too,remember?"
I'm still amaze that Suzaku didn't kill LL at that moment.

Again what has Suzaku done to help anyone other than himself? He has done nothing except let other people do the work for him. Not exactly changing the system, more like letting the system work for him

Something like improving the status of Area 11,remember Nunnally talking about Japan becoming a Satellite Area.
He can't change the system now so he's using it to his advantage,as long as he make use of the system good points,he's still fine..

[morbosfist]

He did nothing to affect that change in status. A year of good behavior, public executions (thank you Calares), and exile (which he was forced into) did that.

[UFO888]

here is my opinion on Suzaku. But before that let i make it clear that i am not a fan of zero. Well it is more like i dont care what he did anymore. And yes, i know that zero is evil. And i do not intent on comparing who is more evil than who. Well, let get back on suzaku.

He has been know as a up tight moral person and considers everything he did is right and just. Yet after his lover died, he goes on a killing spree, let the emperor brainwash his friends (all his friends minus zero) and even uses nunnally for his purpose (to lure zero out). I understand that he has every rights to to get revenge. But he also drags and uses his friend, the ones that didnt do any harm to him in the first place. Yet, he still thinks and believes he did the right things. So i would like to ask that can i call him a denial bastard now or what? I would not be so pissed if he said out right that he is just freaking evil like every one else in the show, instead of seeing himself as some hero of justice and moral.

This is off topic: if i only have 2 choices: die by the hand of zero or suzaku, i would rather choose zero for i know he knows that it is evil. While suzaku just see it as justice and believes he is still a saint.

[DN24]

He did nothing to affect that change in status. A year of good behavior, public executions (thank you Calares), and exile (which he was forced into) did that.

So,why didn't they change the status under Carares, the exile plan was made and become a succeed get away of the OoBk was all because of Suzaku.He doesn't go out and do things as dramatic as LL but that doesn't mean he did nothing,don't deny him of every good thing..

But he also drags and uses his friend, the ones that didnt do any harm to him in the first place

He hasn't used anyone beside Nunnally,and I don't think the phone call stuff was extremely bad or evil

I would not be so pissed if he said out right that he is just freaking evil like every one else in the show

Was that conversation with Anya where he called himself a "sinner" not enough for you

This is off topic: if i only have 2 choices: die by the hand of zero or suzaku, i would rather choose zero for i know he knows that it is evil. While suzaku just see it as justice and believes he is still a saint.

I have serious doubt on Zero/Lelouch "become evil to defeat a greater evil stuff",did he really think so or was it just on of his public speech to improve his imagine? when he regain his memory I think he said he was not at fault but the world was.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by DN24

So,why didn't they change the status under Carares, the exile plan was made and become a succeed get away of the OoBk was all because of Suzaku.He doesn't go out and do things as dramatic as LL but that doesn't mean he did nothing,don't deny him of every good thing..

I'm not denying him anything, I'm just not giving him credit for something he had no hand in creating. Carares did the initial cleanup, Nunnally became the Viceroy specifically to succeed Euphy's will, and Lelouch orchestrated the exile. All Suzaku did in this entire equation was prevent a massacre. He doesn't get credit for improving the status simply because of that.

Ever since becoming Knight of Seven, Suzaku's done nothing but expand Britannia's rule by helping to wipe out the EU. He hasn't done crap to reach his goal since that point.

[DN24]

Carares did the abuse,Zero did the clean up,Suzaku and Nunnally do the administration afterward,after a while the Area got promoted...that's how I see it

[morbosfist]

Speaking from the perspective of getting the Area's status improved, Zero didn't do any cleanup. He made things worse and then got rid of himself. Carares made things better will all the executions. Suzaku has almost no hand in governing the Area. Participating in meetings has no effect on law and order. You're just trying to give him undue credit.

[UFO888]

Originally Posted by DN24

He hasn't used anyone beside Nunnally,and I don't think the phone call stuff was extremely bad or evil

Was that conversation with Anya where he called himself a "sinner" not enough for you

Is there such a measure in term of bad or evil? Besides, he should know how important zero to nunnally. Yet he intents to trick her to get her brother. It just like someone trick you to harone of your precious person (i wouldnt debate whether that person is good or bad, the point is you consider he/she as an irreplaceable one), woudnt you feel guilty and responsible for that person death?Sure i wouldnt call that extremely bad or evil. Furthermore, he also doesnt know what to do to nunnally when charles found out that lulu is zero again, he still goes a head and start his revenge plan. I wouldnt consider that an honorable action of a honorable hero. And he doesnt use his fellow students for sure, all he did is let them being brainwash so he can put spies and survillience on zero.

And i dont remmeber if he called himself a sinner, but he still beleives everything he did is right including the act of using nunnally and the rest of his friends. He thinks he still better then zero and condems him as evil. Ok, he can see him better than some one, but he is certainly already evil.

And i think you would agree that there is hardly an all good character in codegeass and suzaku certainly is not one. Isnt everyone agree on his focus on revenge? and so is zero and the terrorists that he is so hated. And i dont think focus on revenge is a virtue of a hero either.

Zero may blame one the world but he still realizes that he is evil and has done evil things. But if you want to hate him for that, be my guest for i do not bashing/criticing suzaku to make zero look better in anyway.

[DN24]

Participating in meetings has no effect on law and order

I disagree.He's the second most powerful person there beside Nunnally, he participates in meetings equal he's running the area,and that have a lot to do with law and order

[morbosfist]

His power has nothing to do with the Area. The one meeting we see him go to was about the Guren, and it wasn't in the same room as Nunnally discusses governing in. All was just military personnel. That has no affect on the Area, just their own concerns.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Originally Posted by Dream_Traveller

Call this post stupid if you will, but I doubt that the Albion turning to face the Guren and brandishing an MVS is hintng at a non-confrontational situation.

It is?

All you see is Guren flying, then Lancelot flies under it and brandishes it's MSV sword and it is still facing us unless your implying Guren moved but Lancelot moved in front of it so Guren would techincally be behind Lancelot who is facing away from it.

All Suzaku did in this entire equation was prevent a massacre. He doesn't get credit for improving the status simply because of that.

Which was critical for the SAZ to work. To the Japanese the Britannians had lost all credibility in governing the area. Suzaku's actions in restraining the Britannians showed the Japanese that stayed behind that this time they were sincere.

The one meeting we see him go to was about the Guren, and it wasn't in the same room as Nunnally discusses governing in. All was just military personnel. That has no affect on the Area, just their own concerns.

Gino, Anya, and Suzaku were shown in a meeting with Britannian officials during episode 8 I believe when Nunnally just arrived in Japan.

You really don't think they are going to show ALL the meetings that are taking place do you?

Furthermore, he also doesnt know what to do to nunnally when charles found out that lulu is zero again, he still goes a head and start his revenge plan.

What? All we saw was Suzaku facing a dilemna and that was it. It doesn't show anything other than that and if spoilers are correct

Spoiler:

He'll be meeting with Lelouch to talk with him

[DN24]

Is there such a measure in term of bad or evil? Besides, he should know how important zero to nunnally. Yet he intents to trick her to get her brother. Sure i wouldnt call that extremely bad or evil. Furthermore, he also doesnt know what to do to nunnally when charles found out that lulu is zero again, he still goes a head and start his revenge plan. I wouldnt consider that an honorable action of a honorable hero. And he doesnt use his fellow students for sure, all he did is let them being brainwash so he can put spies and survillience on zero.

And i dont remmeber if he called himself a sinner, but he still beleives everything he did is right including the act of using nunnally and the rest of his friends. He thinks he still better then zero and condems him as evil. Ok, he can see him better than some one, but he is certainly already evil.

And i think you would agree that there is hardly an all good character in codegeass and suzaku certainly is not one. Isnt everyone agree on his focus on revenge? and so is zero and the terrorists that he is so hated. And i dont think focus on revenge is a virtue of a hero either.

Zero may blame one the world but he still realizes that he is evil and has done evil things. But if you want to hate him for that, be my guest for i do not bashing/criticing suzaku to make zero look better in anyway.

I never said he was a saint or a hero, I just can't stand the way people make him look worse than he really is.The handling of the student council and Nunnally was not for Suzaku to decide,Charles did all that and Suzaku had no choice but to follow order.In the worst case possible,Suzaku can still protect Nunnally.Suzaku has a lot of rules he must accept in order to work toward his goal, he has a lot of restrictions and can't act freely.

Back in SS1,Suzaku was the closest thing to a hero CG had,but Euphemia's death changed him,so now he can't be a hero anymore since his first priority is revenge and saving people become a secondary goal....

All was just military personnel. That has no affect on the Area, just their own concerns.

What are the role of military personnels in an Area? They keep law and order,don't they?

[Juvyniled]

First and foremost, Suzaku could have simply killed Lelouch at the conclusion of Season 1. Now, to suggest that Suzaku had already planned to turn Lelouch over to the king and that Suzaku wanted Lelouch to suffer in doing so, suggests that he has some intellect. However, many proclaim that he is a moron (justifiably or hatefully motivated). I suggest you all pick one or the other because a moron isn't likely to conceive such a plan to use a person of great importance as a bargaining chip for a higher status, or even likely to consider that living is a greater punishment than death (I mean, that is pure poetry in a psychotic's mind, and I highly doubt that Suzaku is a subscriber to creativeness).

Secondly, it is very important to consider the points of view from characters themselves. Many have made judgment calls for either Suzaku or Lelouch based on THEIR OWN point of view, that of the audience. It can't be automatically presumed that characters have an understanding of their environment. This applies even to Lelouch because even though he has Geass, he is still unaware of the actions of others not in his vicinity.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

Which was critical for the SAZ to work. To the Japanese the Britannians had lost all credibility in governing the area. Suzaku's actions in restraining the Britannians showed the Japanese that stayed behind that this time they were sincere.

Gino, Anya, and Suzaku were shown in a meeting with Britannian officials during episode 8 I believe when Nunnally just arrived in Japan.

You really don't think they are going to show ALL the meetings that are taking place do you?

I can't find it in episode 8 or 7, the latter being when Nunnally arrived. I'll agree that they won't show every meeting, but it's important to note that the one meeting about governing the Area they actually show has Suzaku absent. Unless he's just participating of his own accord, it indicates he doesn't have much say in how the place gets run.

As for Suzaku allowing the exile, it only indicates he hasn't lost his morals. He didn't do anything to reach that point. He was in fact against the idea in the first place. He gets credit for stopping a massacre, but he was forced into it by Lelouch. Though it may have made the remaining Elevens a bit more willing to work with the Britannians (which I find doubtful), to give Suzaku credit for improving the Area's through a decision forced upon him is too much.

[UFO888]

@DN24: I never said that you consider him a saint or hero. The point is that he still thinks he is a moral hero. That is what makes me angry at him. If he just admits that the evil things he has done is evil then I would not care whatever he wants to do next with the exception of nunnally, kaguya and CC.

On the side note, he sees himself as moral and all, but he still stands and does nothing knowing that his friends be brainwashed. He is still willing to work under charles. I dont think that suit who he claims to be very well. And he said he will change the system but he has to follow orders as less for now. And I woud not think that all the orders he is given are honorable considering how Britinia acts. So he fates to committe crime as some point which further show how denial he is.

[animeboy12]

I remember in s1 Lelouch said suzaku saved Japan from a worse fate by killing his father

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

I can't find it in episode 8 or 7, the latter being when Nunnally arrived. I'll agree that they won't show every meeting, but it's important to note that the one meeting about governing the Area they actually show has Suzaku absent. Unless he's just participating of his own accord, it indicates he doesn't have much say in how the place gets run.

Episode 8. When Suzaku is going over about whether or not Lelouch has regained his memories and if so, to answer him why he killed Euphie.

I would not say that Suzaku does not have much say in how the place gets run. First and most of all, he's the Knight of 7, one of the Emperor's closest associates. Therefore he himself is a represenative of the Emperor. If Suzaku wishes to attend some meetings and make some decisions then he has the authority to do so.

If he doesn't attend most of the meetings then he simply doesn't and that's out of choice. In the long run he's not there to run the place anyways so it's better to leave it to the people who will stay there (nunnally for example).

As for Suzaku allowing the exile, it only indicates he hasn't lost his morals. He didn't do anything to reach that point. He was in fact against the idea in the first place. He gets credit for stopping a massacre, but he was forced into it by Lelouch. Though it may have made the remaining Elevens a bit more willing to work with the Britannians (which I find doubtful), to give Suzaku credit for improving the Area's through a decision forced upon him is too much.

Everybody gets credit.

Lelouch's operation was set up to give Nunnally and Britannia in general crediblity in governing them.

That and he removed the majority of those that don't want it anyways.

On the side note, he sees himself as moral and all, but he still stands and does nothing knowing that his friends be brainwashed. He is still willing to work under charles. I dont think that suit who he claims to be very well. And he said he will change the system but he has to follow orders as less for now. And I woud not think that all the orders he is given are honorable considering how Britinia acts. So he fates to committe crime as some point which further show how denial he is.

Yeah I think a lot too, in fact everyone does. They think this and think that.

And you know each and every single order that Suzaku has been given? You mind sharing that with us?

[canis]

Originally Posted by UFO888

here is my opinion on Suzaku. But before that let i make it clear that i am not a fan of zero. Well it is more like i dont care what he did anymore. And yes, i know that zero is evil. And i do not intent on comparing who is more evil than who. Well, let get back on suzaku.

He has been know as a up tight moral person and considers everything he did is right and just. Yet after his lover died, he goes on a killing spree, let the emperor brainwash his friends (all his friends minus zero) and even uses nunnally for his purpose (to lure zero out). I understand that he has every rights to to get revenge. But he also drags and uses his friend, the ones that didnt do any harm to him in the first place. Yet, he still thinks and believes he did the right things. So i would like to ask that can i call him a denial bastard now or what? I would not be so pissed if he said out right that he is just freaking evil like every one else in the show, instead of seeing himself as some hero of justice and moral.

This is off topic: if i only have 2 choices: die by the hand of zero or suzaku, i would rather choose zero for i know he knows that it is evil. While suzaku just see it as justice and believes he is still a saint.

I'm not sure why you think Suzaku believes it was the morally right thing to do to deliver Lelouch to the Emperor, have his friends Geassed and using Nunnally to check her brothers memories...
In the flashback he said, that he wouldn't ask for Lelouch's forgiveness. Doesn't that sound like he knew what he was doing and that it was beyond questionable?
He also didn't get over his father's murder, he always viewed himself as a sinner...
Believing you are doing the right thing isn't the same thing as believing that you don't get your hands dirty. Lelouch also believes in his way of doing things, right?
Suzaku also is aware of the hazards his way brings.
Prejudice, Intolerance, Killing,... He said it himself that he was a soldier and that meant using a weapon if needed.
I'm not denying that he has delusions, or that he doesn't come off as preachy sometimes.
I don't think he's viewing himself as a beacon of Light and Justice though.