2013-02-10, 20:31 | Link #102 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
|
Quote:
Why must I answer points I already mentioned? |
|
2013-02-10, 20:45 | Link #103 | |
Anomaly / 矛盾存在
Join Date: Jan 2013
Age: 29
|
Not everyone thinks like you do...
Edit: removed double point. So this leaves two possibilities, I think. One, Noumi had some other finisher move at level 1, and later chose DC as his level bonus. Two, DC was always a level up bonus that appeared from level 2 onwards. The feasibility of Noumi gathering enough points to level up is another question. Unless his brother was kind enough to give him the tutorial, Noumi had to learn duelling the hard and painful way. Plus, he saw BB as this: Quote:
Last edited by Tusjecht; 2013-02-10 at 21:05. |
|
2013-02-10, 21:03 | Link #104 |
Anomaly / 矛盾存在
Join Date: Jan 2013
Age: 29
|
My bad. Sorry Gold, just saw your earlier post.
So then, if DC was not available at level 1, then that's...unusual? For the potential to be fully unlocked after a level up bonus... Well, this opens up some fanfic character possibilities. |
2013-02-10, 22:19 | Link #105 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
|
Guilty until proven innocent.
Why is Taker colored Purple when his only power is Yellowish? Why was it even called Taker if it was built around something other than stealing? Incarnate Skills must fit the nature of the avatar because they both arise from the same wounds of the heart, and the unnamed "purple wave surge" sucked up and obliterated things with an endless, hateful hunger. Given those wounds of the heart existed BEFORE installing Brain Burst, why would he become such a sweet kid after forgetting Brain Burst? None of his original issues were solved. I can at least pretend that he's faking the sweetness, and he's actually the same wounded soul he was before Brain Burst, but it might really be something as inexplicably convenient as pixie dust on the brain. So many authors don't respect the consistency of their own rules, so why ought I believe different in this case? Therefore, why should I believe there's any good reason for Dusk Taker breaking the rules of having equal potential? Likewise, why ought I believe that there's a good reason why Aviation didn't appear on Silver Crow's screen? But I'm tired and need to get up early tomorrow after a much-too-short weekend, so I'm feeling kind of bitter. |
2013-02-11, 06:09 | Link #106 | |
オレンジ色の王
Author
Join Date: Jul 2012
Age: 20
|
Quote:
Regardless, it does mean that there was a previous owner, so there's no doubt that Taker stole it off him. As for how Taker leveled up without having any special abilities prior to Demonic Comandeer, he admitted that he did so by blackmailing the Linkers in real life. Crow had never heard of him because he didn't fight duels for points. |
|
2013-02-11, 10:48 | Link #107 | |
Anomaly / 矛盾存在
Join Date: Jan 2013
Age: 29
|
I hope, Gold, that you're like this normally.
Quote:
So am I, I'm waking up at 3 for second job (GMT+8). Replyingt he rest tmr. |
|
2013-02-11, 16:02 | Link #108 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
|
I assume you meant to say "NOT like this".
And I'm not. I was tired and cranky, so I was being very bitter and cynical. It doesn't mean I'm wrong to assume that the author is being inconsistent. Quote:
I was pointing out that your words, "Tentacles are confirmed to be stolen. Taker specifically mentions them having a previous owner who said they looked like starfish tentacles" did not constitute sound evidence. I then further described why Taker's words were not clear enough about whether the tentacles were or were not an enhanced armament. Quote:
Still, Taker's improbable success is merely improbable, not inexplicable. I could likewise believe that he begged other Burst Linkers to form tag-teams with him, so that his own weakness could be off-set by someone else's capability. Obviously, that's not what he did, but he could have. The inexplicable part is Dusk Taker's lack of capability. The thing that would make the most sense is that his brother did more than merely extort Burst Points from him, but also extorted away whatever enhanced armament that Dusk Taker might have been created with, leaving Noumi with a crippled avatar. Noumi's brother might have immediately pawned the item at the Shop for Burst Points, or perhaps Noumi was forced to do that himself in order to meet his quota in the early days. But Noumi doesn't accuse his brother of any such thing. Self-righteous as Noumi is, he would surely not fail to gloat about how he succeeded despite such an injustice. There is another possibility. Namely, that Dusk Taker always had a hidden power, just as Silver Crow initially did. But for whatever reason, Noumi didn't achieve the trigger condition that would reveal it. Demonic Commandeer might not have been purchased as a level up bonus, but merely unveiled like Aviation... just much, much later. This still doesn't explain why either ability would be hidden to begin with, especially since those abilities are the entire focus of the avatars. Chiyuri didn't understand what Citron Call did, but she was still able to USE it immediately, and it readily appeared on her screen. And probably, the screen explained what it did, but she didn't bother to read it. Basically, no matter how many possible explanations I come up with, none of them make adequate sense. That's why I suspect that the author DOESN'T have an answer which would fit his own rules. |
||
2013-02-11, 16:34 | Link #109 |
Anomaly / 矛盾存在
Join Date: Jan 2013
Age: 29
|
Unless, Gold, it's like Faker: Taker was able to copy his opponent's abilities at first, until he levelled up and spent the bonus on DC instead.
...but it still breaks the rules. Copying and stealing are definitely distinct abilities, the discussion in the fanfic thread has pretty much gone through most points that could be raised. So that might mean author threw out his own rulebook. Or, DT could steal, but not permanently, and the level up bonus made it a proper stealing move. This might follow the rule because while I didn't see it in the anime, LN says Crow must spend SP to fly, so for Level 1 Taker, he possibly spent SP per second to steal the move. Conjecture entirely. And no hard feelings, Gold. |
2013-02-11, 21:25 | Link #110 | ||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
|
Quote:
A Level 4 bonus would definitely be somewhat appropriate for an effect that continues to hinder an opponent even after a duel or a resurrection in the UNF. And if Demonic Commandeer could still retain copies, it would make some sense that the move requires a full Special Meter to pull off. Since each successful use would make you stronger for future fights, the system punishes you with at least one extremely difficult first battle... or however many it takes to copy an ability. But... Quote:
It doesn't matter how weak an avatar is forced to start or how hard they have to work to get there, if an avatar is given the ability to exceed the potential of their level in any way, there would be no point to "Equal Level, Equal Potential" at all. Dusk Taker's ability allowed him to take Aviation, an ability that required all of Silver Crow's potential, and still had room left for a number of powerful items that Silver Crow could not possess, on top of his ability to steal other, better items as the opportunity or need arose. Random drops and gifted items can likewise empower an avatar beyond their level, but the difference is that ANYONE can benefit from these, and no one started any weaker than anyone else. And, by the way, my complaints are laid equally at Copying as well, not just stealing. But with one possible exception. If Copying can be done as a normal move, without any Special Meter and at the start of a fight, then a copycat has a much better chance of fairly acquiting himself, even in his very first fight. It's still a Magikarp Power, but not nearly as bad. Especially since, as the opponent is not denied their own power, the copycat runs into the very real and serious problem that he will basically NEVER have decent odds of beating his target at their own game. A Yellow copycat can't match Cyan Pile in a pile-driver duel. Even if the Copycat had a supplemental ability -- for example, improving the power of a stolen ability by 20% -- the opponent still has superior experience, and all of their other abilities are supplementing the central ability. Cyan Pile is strong enough to lift the pile-driver and to withstand its recoil, and he has the armor to survive a slugging match. A Yellow avatar will not have these advantages, so an unfamiliar and unsuitable weapon doesn't grant good odds even with a 20% power boost. There's a reason why F/SN's Archer was the weakest as well as the strongest Servant. He had to play a careful Paper-Scissors-Rock game against any other Epic Spirit; trying to Mirror Match them would only end in shame. Quote:
In his first fight with Dusk Taker, he breaks the headstones first before flying. And of course, his gauge was full when he first used his wings against Cyan Pile. Quote:
Against odds like those, Noumi's reward for surviving long enough to use his Special Ability was to turn the tables. Whereas before, he had nothing like the Pile-Driver or Lighnting Cyan Spike, now Cyan Pile is in Dusk Taker's shoes. Demonic Commandeer is not cheating, as far as that goes. Turning the tables in such a fashion is very fair. The one who starts with nothing gains everything; the one who starts with everything loses everything. The problem is in how it can continue to deny a victim their powers. The even greater problem is in how it allows Dusk Taker to retain the stolen power, and then to keep gaining powers beyond his Level Potential. Well, actually, did he? Aviation is more than just Silver Crow's wings; it's also in his Kick and Punch attacks; especially the Punch, when it unfolds and unleashes a jet. Silver Crow's SP plummets rapidly whenever he uses Aviation to supplement a Punch or Kick. His wings turn those normal moves into Special Moves. To my knowledge, we never see Dusk Taker do this. Maybe he just didn't want to. Maybe he immediately went for someone's Dropped Item firearm, which had a "scar investment" low enough that he could squeeze it in around the wing's. Or maybe Dusk Taker really couldn't duplicate all of Silver Crow's true power, and if they had both fought with wings, Silver Crow's Punches and Kicks would not be put to shame by Pyro Dealer. |
||||
2013-02-13, 02:42 | Link #111 | |||
Anomaly / 矛盾存在
Join Date: Jan 2013
Age: 29
|
Quote:
Quote:
His foot-to-the-face on Cherry Rook, thus, did so much more damage simply because 1) they were falling from a huge height, lots of speed, and 2) larger combined mass of Cherry, Armour, and Crow. Enough to destroy the stage, and Demonic City as that. And during his IS training, Crow's last Laser Sword on the old Tokyo tower made his gauntlet open up just like his flying Punch. If IS only unlocks the potential that was always there, then..he never lost Punch? This is what I can think. Quote:
For equal level, equal potential, Dusk Taker MUST have something, this we agree. So what if Noumi was always able to steal at level 1? In other words, his special move, requiring a full SP gauge, was to steal from the opponent. This is a fair 'turning the tables' move as you said. However, Noumi was limited because when he stole, it was for that fight and that fight only. Should he steal, win the duel, and challenge another person, the stolen equipment is not retained. In other words, more like borrowing, or KYH's Absolute Cutting. Thus, his Level 4 bonus, the one that is more suited for fighting in the UNF, is retention; the retaining of the item he stole. In the UNF, this makes sense; after the opponent respawns, the tables are still turned in Taker's favour because he's still holding on to said equipment. The problem thus arose when this ability was not restricted to the UNF only, so he started using it in duels. |
|||
2013-02-13, 10:12 | Link #112 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
|
Quote:
In any case, he sounds sufficiently different from my "Jade Sage" concept; extending limbs, but a lightweight without as much physical strength. More reliant on the extending limbs than Utan. Hmm. A thought about "special attack affinities". Dusk Taker's special move is Yellow, but his body is not. His armor, strength, speed and claws... His body is reasonably strong, designed for direct close-range combat. Not to the extent of a Blue, but far more so than a Yellow could be. Without an indirect normal ability, a Yellow could not survive long enough to fill their Special Meter, but a Purple could. Bush Utan is strong and tough; definitely built for close-range engagement. He's green because his extending arms allow him to pull and push himself and opponents around, tactically controlling a battle. But his strength combined with his extending limbs might expand his Direct Attack potential into Mid-Range, which is normally Purple. In contrast to Utan, Jade Sage's attack strength is much lower; he's closer to Yellow than Blue because he relies far more on his extending limbs to control the battle, as well as to make effective attacks. His color is not dark because his extending attacks aren't good at dealing direct damage at long-range (which is outside normal Green potential). Cyan Pile isn't dark because the author apparently intended for him to be slightly-Purplish Blue, not realizing that cyan is greenish. I'm going to offer a theory on Blood Leopard -- that her avatar is Red because its initial, humanoid body is weak like a Red. Not much muscle mass; most is concentrated into the legs (especially the thighs, which Haruyuki notes are particularly thick); extremely minimal armor, too. The transformation into the cat form is Leopard's version of "completely turning the tables". Her avatar goes from speed-based Red to speed-based "Super-Blue", gaining loads more muscle-mass across the entire body; including the jaws. Blood Leopard could not be a Blue, because no Blue could be as fast as she wants to be. To deliver that kind of potential, the system needed to make her pay for it. The payment is the initial weak Red avatar, and the time and effort needed to earn her "Super-Blue" cat form. This enforced waiting period might be some reflection on the impatience she seems to show. SP-Drain seems to be a reflection of her efforts to reduce waiting periods. HP-Drain may be a reflection of a desire to avoid wastefulness; rather than all of that precious HP vanishing into a vaccuum when she inflicts injury, she can conserve some of it by drinking it up. |
|
2013-02-13, 10:19 | Link #113 | |
Anomaly / 矛盾存在
Join Date: Jan 2013
Age: 29
|
Quote:
On this note, might you then respond to my reply on Noumi? |
|
2013-02-13, 10:44 | Link #114 | |||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
|
Quote:
Quote:
His flying Punch attack against Cyan Pile had the advantage of gravity, but... Quote:
Now, obviously using his wings to charge through the air at top speed would consume more SP than hovering in place or floating about. But that doesn't quite explain how his Punch gets into the action, with the unfolding and jets of the forearm. Perhaps a Flying Punch consumes even more SP than a Flying Dash, and perhaps even achieves greater speed? Quote:
It's enough of an advantage if he retains the stolen abilities for as long as it takes them to resurrect, because that allows him to use their abilities against any allies who aren't yet KOed. This is vital, since he's likely lost a lot of HP and SP getting that power; he can't afford to have to turn the tables against fresh opponents when he's not fresh himself. Even without permanent denial/retention, Demonic Commandeer was sufficiently balanced for the Unlimited Neutral Field. Fight one opponent "fairly", and then try to leverage that power to steal another one before the hour is over, then return to defeat the first opponent with the other power. Quote:
The ability to inflict such permanent distress upon someone else should never have belonged to a Level 4 avatar. Even Sky Raker's missing legs were as much her own Incarnation as the Level 9 Black Lotus' ability, yes? |
|||||
2013-02-13, 11:46 | Link #115 | |||
Anomaly / 矛盾存在
Join Date: Jan 2013
Age: 29
|
Quote:
But this genuinely surprises me, normal moves should not be consuming SP! Quote:
Quote:
Well, Pile himself said Noumi's potentially game-breaking potential was due to his horrific scars. This scar investment could possibly stretch the level-potential rule, maybe? Unless there's actually simpler way of getting back the armaments Taker stole; by pulling them off his avatar? |
|||
2013-02-13, 12:07 | Link #116 | |||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
|
Quote:
This may be more than metaphorical. The Aviation ability may specifically state in its rules "using the Punch or Kick attack in conjunction with the Aviation ability appends a Special Meter cost in return for greater effect". Utan's Elastic Strongarm might work by a similar principle. If it uses SP, it may require less SP to reach out and grab a ledge to pull himself up than it may to fire off an extending Punch. Quote:
If DT doesn't have the stolen ability for as long as it takes the first victim to respawn, then anyone else who finds him in the meantime can make quick work of him. I wasn't referring to turning the tables again on the first victim. Also, even if Dusk Taker loses the ability once the victim respawns, that's after a whole hour in which DT could run away... or charge up his SP Meter. With a full SP Meter, DT has a good chance of using Demonic Commandeer again as soon as the target becomes available. Quote:
He's level 5 when he challenges Silver Crow, so that's one more bonus into Commandeer. Quote:
Quote:
Sulphur Pot lost the Mystic Reins, but those might have been a purchased gift or a random drop. Initial equipment and bonus-bought equipment may be harder to lose. Items stolen with Demonic Commandeer might be similarly hard to steal. |
|||||
2013-02-27, 08:56 | Link #117 | |
Anomaly / 矛盾存在
Join Date: Jan 2013
Age: 29
|
Speculation about Black Vise:
We've only seen him use Incarnate attacks against Haru and KYH. LNs also show more about it, where Haru actually tries harder than just resisting: Quote:
Given his avatar shape...would it be likely that he crushes another avatar normally by expanding his body, surrounding the avatar (either by his shadow travel skill or otherwise), and then forcefully crushing them? Last edited by Tusjecht; 2013-02-28 at 02:32. |
|
2013-02-27, 20:32 | Link #118 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
|
Why do you spoil-tag something in Volume 4 (which is translated AND animated), but not something that is only revealed later (and which is neither)?
Vise's defining trauma was NOT covered in his first appearance. Also, Takumu's trauma was combined with a desire to inflict the same trauma upon others. I think it would be odd if Vise's powers were based on that phobia alone. The author might have done just that, but I would disagree about it making sense. Still, it does seem possible that Black Vise normally has to use his whole body against an enemy, and he uses the Incarnate System to cheat up a safer attack. |
2013-02-27, 21:32 | Link #119 |
Anomaly / 矛盾存在
Join Date: Jan 2013
Age: 29
|
[seems like my reply wasn't posted]
That's because, I'm at a conflict at using the spoiler tag. I and LN thread apparently consider most canon material to be spoilers, but with you I have to distinct between what has been animated AND written, between what has been not, and then you want me to place the former in spoiler tags, when other readers do not know about future events. Moving to Vise, I fully knew his trauma is unknown till now; that his trauma is possibly «being crushed» is a speculation, which I speculated on again. |
2013-03-10, 09:59 | Link #120 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
|
Quote:
Sometimes people use it in place of "since", because they are treating a fact as though it were a theory. (Reasons vary, but many times it is because they don't trust the information to be reliable.) For example, "If Red is the long-range direct damage color, then Blood Leopard should not be Red," when spoken by someone who has some reason to dislike the color system or whom doesn't trust the author to remain consistent. Not that I assumed you doubted your information. |
|
|
|