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Old 2014-04-13, 05:54   Link #41
SoboSobo
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Which is funny, because those who made him barely consider him a magician.


I don't think it was necessary or even beneficial (to the story) to make him such an atypical mage just to show that magicians are weapons. Really, it detracts from that message.


It's more about the presentation than the OPness itself.


As in "wow, he might really die this time (plot armor notwithstanding)".


Which is a bit of a problem, since we've already tapped into the "best in the world" categories (that Chinese guy who's one of top close quarter combatants, and Lina who's the best USNA magician, as well as their go-to girl for anti-magician missions). And we still haven't seen anyone "at his level".


Not really. The feeling I had was that he still had a lot under the hood, and that any difficulty him holding back to not kill her than him being truly cornered.



"He trained for years" is a poor excuse. Lots of kids start martial arts early. How many 15 years old do you see competing against adults in world championships? Zero, that's how many. And he already completely dominated soldiers at 13.



Not to this point. It's as if Einstein discovered Relativity in high school. While keeping a full time job in addition to his school work.




Genetics aren't that straightforward. Just like you can get great magicians out of obscure lineages (like Mari), it's possible for famous families to produce duds. Which Erica isn't, precisely.

But the thing is, Course 1 students are tested for basic specs, and Erica's apparently aren't that good. It's like, they're trying to sort student-athlete, but they test things like muscle tone and lung capacity. Erica's a great soccer player thanks to her excellent ball control, but her tested capacities are bad.

Also, what the school wants are generalists who can play lots of sports, but Erica's only really good at soccer.
I agree with you but after reading 10 volumes so far i come to think that its not characters that are made a certain way to fit in the plot its the problem.
I think the way the power of a magician is determined is the problem it seems to forced to me, i mean the magic community in the story knows that there are more powerful and more useful types of magic besides the 4 great systems and still the magician rank is judged by those only.A BS magician may not be able to use all of 4 systems but that doesn't mean his power is lower then one that can use the 4 great systems.
I don`t know its seems forced and out of place to judge the level based that alone,its like i judge a soccer player by how well he can execute free kicks, he may suck at those but excel at other abilities but he wont be a great soccer player because of that which in reality that has no logic or sense what so ever.
Especially since its said there are only so few magicians in the world and yet the world set a system to diminish the number even more, i don`t know seems to forced to me.
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Old 2014-04-13, 06:29   Link #42
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Originally Posted by SoboSobo View Post
I agree with you but after reading 10 volumes so far i come to think that its not characters that are made a certain way to fit in the plot its the problem.
I think the way the power of a magician is determined is the problem it seems to forced to me, i mean the magic community in the story knows that there are more powerful and more useful types of magic besides the 4 great systems and still the magician rank is judged by those only.A BS magician may not be able to use all of 4 systems but that doesn't mean his power is lower then one that can use the 4 great systems.
I don`t know its seems forced and out of place to judge the level based that alone,its like i judge a soccer player by how well he can execute free kicks, he may suck at those but excel at other abilities but he wont be a great soccer player because of that which in reality that has no logic or sense what so ever.
Especially since its said there are only so few magicians in the world and yet the world set a system to diminish the number even more, i don`t know seems to forced to me.
Magicians fight by exploiting weakness of enemy magicians. General Magicians are all-rounders, so they have few weakness. BS magicians, however, have lots of them and they can't help themselves when face with their specific counters.
Yes, BS mages are powerful in their specialty but they have more weaknesses than common mages and if their enemy exploit them, they will die very quickly.

Just to remind you, Magicians are weapon and weapon that have limited use or can be destroyed easily, albeit powerful, wouldn't have the same value as those more stable ones.
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Old 2014-04-13, 06:38   Link #43
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by SoboSobo View Post
I agree with you but after reading 10 volumes so far i come to think that its not characters that are made a certain way to fit in the plot its the problem.
I think the way the power of a magician is determined is the problem it seems to forced to me, i mean the magic community in the story knows that there are more powerful and more useful types of magic besides the 4 great systems and still the magician rank is judged by those only.A BS magician may not be able to use all of 4 systems but that doesn't mean his power is lower then one that can use the 4 great systems.
I don`t know its seems forced and out of place to judge the level based that alone,its like i judge a soccer player by how well he can execute free kicks, he may suck at those but excel at other abilities but he wont be a great soccer player because of that which in reality that has no logic or sense what so ever.
Especially since its said there are only so few magicians in the world and yet the world set a system to diminish the number even more, i don`t know seems to forced to me.
I think it's normal. Schools cater to the greatest numbers, with the aim of turning out the greatest numbers of adequate graduates. Their tests reflect that, and "special cases" won't be able to show their true worth.

But as Lina said, even if your grades are bad, if you can demonstrate true ability, you can find your own place. (Just like someone with bad grades in school can succeed later in life.) Good grades just make it easier to follow the beaten path and find a good position.
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Old 2014-04-13, 06:39   Link #44
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Originally Posted by CatRules View Post
Magicians fight by exploiting weakness of enemy magicians. General Magicians are all-rounders, so they have few weakness. BS magicians, however, have lots of them and they can't help themselves when face with their specific counters.
Yes, BS mages are powerful in their specialty but they have more weaknesses than common mages and if their enemy exploit them, they will die very quickly.

Just to remind you, Magicians are weapon and weapon that have limited use or can be destroyed easily, albeit powerful, wouldn't have the same value as those more stable ones.
Just to add something, BS magicians also have abilities that are not ?repeatable? by other magicians and would die with them
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Old 2014-04-13, 07:12   Link #45
SoboSobo
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Originally Posted by CatRules View Post
Magicians fight by exploiting weakness of enemy magicians. General Magicians are all-rounders, so they have few weakness. BS magicians, however, have lots of them and they can't help themselves when face with their specific counters.
Yes, BS mages are powerful in their specialty but they have more weaknesses than common mages and if their enemy exploit them, they will die very quickly.

Just to remind you, Magicians are weapon and weapon that have limited use or can be destroyed easily, albeit powerful, wouldn't have the same value as those more stable ones.
true but not at the same time..... we seen in the novel that to guard against magic you use counter magic. Counter magic is a non-systematic. Most "all-rounder" magicians use zone interference and data fortification with gram demolition,dispersion,far strike and other being of such high skill level that a very few magicians can use ,like mayumi stated when tatsuya used gram demolition that even she who was adept at using counter magic was unable of such feat.
The statement that an "all-round" magician can better protect him self then a BS magician doesn't have any logic.
Its true that BS magicians don`t have the same options in terms of spells when it comes down to battles but that does not mean they have more weaknesses then the rest since the defense is determined by how well u can use counter magic.
In case of tatsuya besides having very powerful counter magics and the regrowth ability that practically leaves no opening to exploit he also uses his decomposition magic as a zone interference(area-of-effect decomposition) which is more powerful then ZI since ZI effect is determined by how strong the attacking spell in relation to the ZI, and AOE decomposition will simply erase any spell that has a form in eidos.
The point i`m trying to make is this, the ability to use systematic magic is not directly related to the ability to use counter magic, as shown by tatsuya his systematic magic use is a c-rank but his counter magic is a rank and in case of mayumi where her systematic magic is a-rank but her counter magic beyond ZI only consists of a very weak form of gram demolition.
The only down side of BS magicians is them being specialized in one field only there's a chance that u can come across another magician that uses a magic that naturally is very resistant to his own, like tatsuya's Mist Dispersal is with Jummonji's Phalanx or His decomposition versus his Maya's magic, tatsuya won`t win because his a stronger magician but he will win because Maya's magic type is weak versus Tatsuya magic type.
To put it in lame terms like using wind versus rock, the rock will have a natural resistance to wind but if u use wind versus water then the water will have a natural weakness to wind, just because they use magic to invoke certain phenomenons that does not change the natural order of those phenomenons.

Last edited by SoboSobo; 2014-04-13 at 07:37.
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Old 2014-04-13, 07:12   Link #46
kazakiri
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Originally Posted by Vocah View Post
Just to add something, BS magicians also have abilities that are not ?repeatable? by other magicians and would die with them
Not necessarily, here's a quote from volume 3:

Quote:
BS Magicians, also known as BS ability users, could also be called innate ability users or innate magic specialists. This was because they excelled at a particular ability, but because of this extreme specialization, they were unable to use magic techniques like other Magicians on the same level.

As could be seen from the malicious label "the 101 tricks of BS users", BS Magicians occupied a lower social stratum than normal Magicians, but their unique ability was practically impossible for other people to imitate. Even if someone could accomplish this, they were unable to replicate the same level of quality BS users were capable of. If properly matched with their specialty, they often outperformed the generic "omnipotent" Magicians.
It would depend on the type of magic. Some examples would be "Miya Yotsuba" can't replicate her magic, while Haruka Ono's specialty is cloaking; which other's should be able to reproduce, just not on the same level.
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Old 2014-04-13, 07:48   Link #47
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Originally Posted by kazakiri View Post
Not necessarily, here's a quote from volume 3:



It would depend on the type of magic. Some examples would be "Miya Yotsuba" can't replicate her magic, while Haruka Ono's specialty is cloaking; which other's should be able to reproduce, just not on the same level.
Maybe I worded it badly, but what I meant was the reason, why a particular BS magician would be an asset, would be lost with their death, since it's "practically impossible for other people to imitate" their ability. So the outperforming of generic magicians in their specialty would be the "asset" in question.

Also, I don't think Miya would count as BS magician, just read the first part of your quote.
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Old 2014-04-13, 08:05   Link #48
SoboSobo
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Maybe I worded it badly, but what I meant was the reason, why a particular BS magician would be an asset, would be lost with their death, since it's "practically impossible for other people to imitate" their ability. So the outperforming of generic magicians in their specialty would be the "asset" in question.

Also, I don't think Miya would count as BS magician, just read the first part of your quote.
Its stated that in the yotsuba clan, the clan members have a innate magic of their own besides the general magic, like miyuki has the cocytus which is a mental interference magic thats unique to her,same as her mother, same as her aunt.
Tatsuya being an exception because him having more then one specialization there's no room left in his magic calculation area for the generalized magic besides the artificial one that is very limited.
Probably if tatsuya only had decomposition as his innate ability he would've been able to use generalized magic to a greater effect.
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Old 2014-04-13, 08:37   Link #49
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No, BS magicians are categorized as specialists at the cost of being able to use general magic, so everyone with an innate magic but still able to perform general magic reasonable can't be categorized as BS magicians
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Old 2014-04-13, 09:07   Link #50
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Originally Posted by SoboSobo View Post
Its stated that in the yotsuba clan, the clan members have a innate magic of their own besides the general magic, like miyuki has the cocytus which is a mental interference magic thats unique to her,same as her mother, same as her aunt.
Tatsuya being an exception because him having more then one specialization there's no room left in his magic calculation area for the generalized magic besides the artificial one that is very limited.
Probably if tatsuya only had decomposition as his innate ability he would've been able to use generalized magic to a greater effect.
Miya is not BS. She has good genes plus her signature ability just like Miyuki. If you take the Juumonji clan for example, all the children would have Phalanx as their signature magic but among the Yotsuba everyone has a different signature magic.

And the statement that normal magicians have better protection than BS magicians is mostly true, Tatsuya is an exception because the 2 gram spells are very, very rare. A BS magician not specialized in defense wouldn't be able to use Data Fortification or Zone Interference,
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Old 2014-04-13, 09:21   Link #51
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Originally Posted by SoboSobo View Post
true but not at the same time..... we seen in the novel that to guard against magic you use counter magic. Counter magic is a non-systematic. Most "all-rounder" magicians use zone interference and data fortification with gram demolition,dispersion,far strike and other being of such high skill level that a very few magicians can use ,like mayumi stated when tatsuya used gram demolition that even she who was adept at using counter magic was unable of such feat.
The statement that an "all-round" magician can better protect him self then a BS magician doesn't have any logic.
i think he is refering to adaptability to various diferent situations, BS magicians are more limited because their magic don't aply to any situation.(the biggest advantage that magic have over fireweapons are the versatility thus i don't think this aspect should be neglected.)
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Old 2014-04-13, 10:38   Link #52
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Originally Posted by Echizen777 View Post
Miya is not BS. She has good genes plus her signature ability just like Miyuki. If you take the Juumonji clan for example, all the children would have Phalanx as their signature magic but among the Yotsuba everyone has a different signature magic.

And the statement that normal magicians have better protection than BS magicians is mostly true, Tatsuya is an exception because the 2 gram spells are very, very rare. A BS magician not specialized in defense wouldn't be able to use Data Fortification or Zone Interference,
I would just like to clarify that Cocytus isn't Miyuki's signature magic in the same sense that Phalanx is Juumonji's. Miyuki was born able to use Cocytus. It's her innate magic that no one else can use, but Juumonji's were modified to use Phalanx. So there may be other people who could use Phalanx, but they wouldn't have the qualities necessary to use it to the extent a Juumonji could.
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Old 2014-04-13, 10:40   Link #53
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I would just like to clarify that Cocytus isn't Miyuki's signature magic in the same sense that Phalanx is Juumonji's. Miyuki was born able to use Cocytus. It's her innate magic that no one else can use, but Juumonji's were modified to use Phalanx. So there may be other people who could use Phalanx, but they wouldn't have the qualities necessary to use it to the extent a Juumonji could.
That's not different. Juumonjis are born with Phalanx thanks to the researches labs, same as Miyuki who is born with Cocytus as a magician of the 1st Yotsuba lineage.
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Old 2014-04-13, 10:43   Link #54
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That's not different. Juumonjis are born with Phalanx thanks to the researches labs, same as Miyuki who is born with Cocytus as a magician of the 1st Yotsuba lineage.
The Juumonji's weren't born with the Phalanx spell already in their minds. At least, there's nothing to suggest that.
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Old 2014-04-13, 10:50   Link #55
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The Juumonji's weren't born with the Phalanx spell already in their minds. At least, there's nothing to suggest that.
I don't want to say that the magic is in their mind, just that they are born with this unique ability and that no one can use it, the magic in in their genes. I don't think even Miyuki could use Cocytus freely once she is born, she had to master it before the events of Reminiscence, even Tatsuya had to learn to master his powers.
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Old 2014-04-13, 11:04   Link #56
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Miya is not BS. She has good genes plus her signature ability just like Miyuki. If you take the Juumonji clan for example, all the children would have Phalanx as their signature magic but among the Yotsuba everyone has a different signature magic.

And the statement that normal magicians have better protection than BS magicians is mostly true, Tatsuya is an exception because the 2 gram spells are very, very rare. A BS magician not specialized in defense wouldn't be able to use Data Fortification or Zone Interference,
i never said she was a BS i just said she had an unique type of magic that no one else had as was specific within yotsuba clan.
And as for normal magicians having better protection yes but that does not means the difference is a big as CatRules said
Quote:
Originally Posted by CatRules View Post
Magicians fight by exploiting weakness of enemy magicians. General Magicians are all-rounders, so they have few weakness. BS magicians, however, have lots of them and they can't help themselves when face with their specific counters.
Yes, BS mages are powerful in their specialty but they have more weaknesses than common mages and if their enemy exploit them, they will die very quickly.
What i mean is although BS magicians have a limited array of spells for offense (being specialized in one type of magic or more) that does not mean their defense is weak simply because they can`t use ZI and DF(I know Tatsuya ZI and DF is weak but i didn`t read anywhere that this is a rule for all BS magicians).
We don`t know enough about counter magic and about BS as well. Could be that other BS magicians have other spells for defense and even more powerful counter magics.
Of course we are talking in an ideal situation, On a real battlefield this whole situation changes.
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Old 2014-04-13, 12:46   Link #57
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No, BS magicians are categorized as specialists at the cost of being able to use general magic, so everyone with an innate magic but still able to perform general magic reasonable can't be categorized as BS magicians
Actually was talking about the innate magic being repeatable part, but well I must have forgotten then..
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Old 2014-04-13, 13:36   Link #58
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I don't want to say that the magic is in their mind, just that they are born with this unique ability and that no one can use it, the magic in in their genes. I don't think even Miyuki could use Cocytus freely once she is born, she had to master it before the events of Reminiscence, even Tatsuya had to learn to master his powers.
Phalanx is, in itself, just a spell, but Juumonji 's aren't born with it like Miyuki was born with Cocytus. It's not an innate magic. Juumonji's specialize in barriers and Phalanx is the best spell suited for their talents. It's similar to how Shippou's Million Edge takes advantage of his Herd Defense. However, the Yotsuba and those with innate magic are different. Cocytus wasn't a spell that originally existed until Miyuki was born with it.
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Old 2014-04-13, 13:52   Link #59
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Originally Posted by SoboSobo View Post
What i mean is although BS magicians have a limited array of spells for offense (being specialized in one type of magic or more) that does not mean their defense is weak simply because they can`t use ZI and DF(I know Tatsuya ZI and DF is weak but i didn`t read anywhere that this is a rule for all BS magicians).
We don`t know enough about counter magic and about BS as well. Could be that other BS magicians have other spells for defense and even more powerful counter magics.
Of course we are talking in an ideal situation, On a real battlefield this whole situation changes.
You are misunderstanding one thing, BS magicians haven't a limited array of spells, they have only one spell, so their options for CM are really, really limited, it's true that we don;t know enough about BS magicians though. Also Tatsuya doesn't know ZI or DF, it would be a waste of time to learn this anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BW95 View Post
Phalanx is, in itself, just a spell, but Juumonji 's aren't born with it like Miyuki was born with Cocytus. It's not an innate magic. Juumonji's specialize in barriers and Phalanx is the best spell suited for their talents. It's similar to how Shippou's Million Edge takes advantage of his Herd Defense. However, the Yotsuba and those with innate magic are different. Cocytus wasn't a spell that originally existed until Miyuki was born with it.
They are born with it, just like Ichijou's Rupture that's their innate magic. Katsuto specializes in magic barriers but Phalanx is usable by any Juumonjis.

Spoiler for Quote from V03:


The big difference is that each Yotsuba has an unique innate magic but it's either OSM or an OP magic.
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Old 2014-04-14, 03:37   Link #60
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In Hong Kong, Volume 11 traditional Chinese edition of Mahouka novel had been labelled as, this series can only be sold to people who aged above 18....
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