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Old 2016-11-18, 03:12   Link #261
Thess
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Quote:
今週の逃げ恥と何かシンクロするものを感じたのは気のせいかな
Kiss was confirmed by Mitsurou Kubo if you bother to catch the reference about what she means (the drama in question had the main characters kissing for the first time this week). They probably had to show it like that due to censorship law. Maybe it'll be different in the BD.
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Old 2016-11-18, 13:28   Link #262
chi4ko
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Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
Gundam 00 has an actual gay/bi main antagonists.
Spoiler for more on mecha:


You know what saddens me the most? Yuuri and Victor will definitely break up in the end. There is no way we're getting a happy ending for this one.
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Old 2016-11-18, 13:42   Link #263
shmaster
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Originally Posted by chi4ko View Post
Spoiler for more on mecha:


You know what saddens me the most? Yuuri and Victor will definitely break up in the end. There is no way we're getting a happy ending for this one.
Assuming the skating community don't destroy their career with bashing first.
Don't for get Figure Skating is a homopobic sports.
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Old 2016-11-18, 13:52   Link #264
chi4ko
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Originally Posted by shmaster View Post
Assuming the skating community don't destroy their career with bashing first.
Don't for get Figure Skating is a homopobic sports.
So far the show has been leaning towards the fun and the over-the-top. I don't think they would change the Rules of the World out of the blue to mimic the reality. Or would they.
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Old 2016-11-18, 14:56   Link #265
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Thess, I suspect you are agreeing with and elaborating on my reply to G, but fwiw YES to your answer. The narrative structure strongly supports the integration of the arcs. You can tease them apart for the sake of analysis, but the joy is in seeing the arcs featuring both. They've been masterfully setting up Yuuri's arc and tying his development as a skater to his emotional growth since ep2, when Viktor speaks with Yuuko and her husband about Yuuri's love life and V determines to facilitate both. They've repeatedly tied his growth as a skater with his emotional growth. Since Yuuri's the main protagonist and the need for him to grow so obvious (from ep1), there was potentially a danger that V would be left as the perfect if quirky coach and skater, a bit too like a Gary Stu. Luckily they've been throwing hints re: V's flaws and need to learn as a coach from ep2 as well, and in that painful confrontation scene and in Yuuri's skating monologue in ep7 the creative team telegraphed very strongly that "yes, let us remind you V's flawed and green as a coach and maybe not all-knowing when it comes to emotions despite not suffering from Yuuri's anxieties". TPTB are making me want Victor's development even more now, and since Y's achieved some measure of growth as a skater and with intimacy, it's V who needs to grow.

By making the development of both men important and integrating both work and emotions into their arcs, the touches, hugs, and kiss become not empty purposeless fanservice, but signs of the slow growth of both men into a loving, equal relationship.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thess View Post
It was a kiss. How else would Viktor surprise him? With a hug? It was a quick one. You can even see when it ends before they touch the ground.

Phicit's performance was my favorite. His victory was well deserved.



Going to drop my two cents. It's not fanservice or some 'baiting', it's integral to their character development and arcs. If you actually paid attention, their relationship is necessary for them to grow in their roles.

In Yuuri's case. The whole "kissless (not anymore) virgin who never had a romantic relationship and is afraid of intimacy" was holding his performance down. This was like nailed a lot earlier, even with Viktor suggesting Yuuri to skate thinking about a lover (and what does Yuuri does? He thinks about Viktor). He used to get a nice coach, friends, and family supporting him. What he was missing was this sexual awakening to explore his sensuality on the rink to feel more comfortable with himself.

In Viktor's case, what he's missing is an attachment to people and to know how to understand them on a deeper level. He's free and open with his 'charms', so he likely slept around a lot with men and women alike, but he has never been in love or be in a serious relationship before. I think he came to Japan because he saw Yuuri's performance of his "Stay Close to Me" flooding with something his was missing. This whole "live for the ice" and what his coach said he was missing while the other guy who is skating for the sake of someone had (something Viktor couldn't have skated on a program). This episode should be clear that Viktor is completely hopeless to deal with people and is finally learning thanks to Yuuri.

So yeah, their relationship is about their maturity which reflects on their current careers.

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Originally Posted by Thess View Post
It was a kiss. How else would Viktor surprise him? With a hug? It was a quick one. You can even see when it ends before they touch the ground.

Phicit's performance was my favorite. His victory was well deserved.



Going to drop my two cents. It's not fanservice or some 'baiting', it's integral to their character development and arcs. If you actually paid attention, their relationship is necessary for them to grow in their roles.

In Yuuri's case. The whole "kissless (not anymore) virgin who never had a romantic relationship and is afraid of intimacy" was holding his performance down. This was like nailed a lot earlier, even with Viktor suggesting Yuuri to skate thinking about a lover (and what does Yuuri does? He thinks about Viktor). He used to get a nice coach, friends, and family supporting him. What he was missing was this sexual awakening to explore his sensuality on the rink to feel more comfortable with himself.

In Viktor's case, what he's missing is an attachment to people and to know how to understand them on a deeper level. He's free and open with his 'charms', so he likely slept around a lot with men and women alike, but he has never been in love or be in a serious relationship before. I think he came to Japan because he saw Yuuri's performance of his "Stay Close to Me" flooding with something his was missing. This whole "live for the ice" and what his coach said he was missing while the other guy who is skating for the sake of someone had (something Viktor couldn't have skated on a program). This episode should be clear that Viktor is completely hopeless to deal with people and is finally learning thanks to Yuuri.

So yeah, their relationship is about their maturity which reflects on their current careers.
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Old 2016-11-18, 15:37   Link #266
Thess
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Originally Posted by shmaster View Post
Assuming the skating community don't destroy their career with bashing first.
Don't for get Figure Skating is a homophobic sport.
While it's truth in real life, they have a positive reaction to Yuuri and Viktor in the anime. Instagram picture reception was positive (people just teased Yuuri). The translation has been awful in some parts: taking liberties to appear less 'gay' than it truly is - I'm not sure why. Because the kiss and a lot of the scenes would have made more sense if they have done a better job in translating the lines properly (putting "girlfriend" instead of "lover", for example, or the awful way they handled the love speech with random wording that completely went against what Yuuri was saying). For example, when those chicks and Chris confronted them after the Instagram thing, they made it sound like as when will Viktor break up with Yuuri that way.

It's fairly obvious Viktor isn't a 100% heterosexual man and he's always been rather shameless in posting his intimacy in general with social media (Yuuri's teacher also says he's slept around in a very well, polite way). So nobody would lift an eyebrow if he's dating yet another guy, IMO. Look how the audience loudly cheered after they kissed.

Maybe this AU reality with a less homophobic community based on the fact everyone wants to sleep with Viktor (remember, men and women faint with heart-eyes when he winks) since he was a long haired waif. Viktor is some kind of ice skating sex god sent to the mortals or something. Surely it feels that way in that universe. Only his coach and, now, Yuuri see Viktor as a person.

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Originally Posted by HalethTO View Post
By making the development of both men important and integrating both work and emotions into their arcs, the touches, hugs, and kiss become not empty purposeless fanservice, but signs of the slow growth of both men into a loving, equal relationship.
Yes, those 'naked moments' with Viktor aren't just "lol fanservice", imo. It's necessary for Yuuri to experience something sexual and stops being afraid of physical intimacy. Sure, it's eyecandy too (nobody denies it), but it's important for Yuuri to have contact with that. Likewise, I think there's a misunderstanding I've seen often with "Yuuri rejected Viktor's offer to be his lover/be kissed, he's straight!" Nooo. No. Yuuri can be straight, alien, bi, chicken. Whatever. But Yuuri refused Viktor's pity or kissing offers out of obligation to make him feel better/give him a confidence boosts. He's pretty happy after Viktor kissed him. But because Viktor wanted it, not because he felt like he should do it so he should stop panicking. Viktor needed to get this drilled into his skull that his offers were "pity sex" to someone who actually loves him. Yuuri loves Viktor. He doesn't need him to do things out of pity and Viktor because he's a failure in emotional intimacy (he doesn't know handling people when they are in a mood), is at loss about what to do at times. Just like Yuuri was clumsy about physical intimacy and needed Viktor to push his boundaries, he's now pushing Viktor's boundaries in the emotional sense.

I wrote somewhere else this. Mind you, this is my personal interpretation. I could be wrong.

Quote:
Yuuri needs a romantic or pseudo-romantic relationship that teaches him to be confident with his sensuality and makes him mature (less jumpy about intimacy in a physical sense). This is tied in with his role as skater who has to perform in a way that captivates the audience. It is also tied with his growth as a person and an adult. Viktor needs one too because he fails in the emotional intimacy side. He's all physicality, but the lack of attachment he has makes his performances limited (he cannot pour his emotions like Georgi or Yuuri do, for example, and as a coach, he is unable to comfort a despairing athlete). This is tied in with his grow as coach or as a skater (depending what he'll decide to do once the season is over), plus as a person. Both are immature, in different ways.

This has zero to do with fanservice or 'baiting'. It's rooted into the character arcs of the main characters, sort of like the homosocial relationships in Ancient Greece model and it's what they have going on where male teacher and student were also lovers and companions as they find that beneficial as a rite of passage. They have to be in a romantic relationship of sorts (this doesn't mean dating in an orthodox way, by the way) because their development, as presented in the show, showcases the issue with both of them is their failed romantic lives: Yuuri because he never had a lover, and Viktor because he's too casual with his past lovers and never had attachment to them. It's not about their families or friends, but it singled out their romantic lives. Chris is a 'shadow' archetype of what Viktor could become if he doesn't find any attachment with anyone: he's pretty much er oversexualized but only attached to the ice rink. So I don't think his actions should just be perceived as shallow fanservice either.
If you take note, so far, none of the other skaters have been portrayed in this 'fanservice' way, because their themes and character arcs aren't connected to eroticism and romantic love like Chris, Yuuri and Viktor did. Again, just my two cents. This is just my interpretation. Maybe I'm overthinking this.
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Old 2016-11-18, 16:18   Link #267
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Originally Posted by chi4ko View Post
Spoiler for more on mecha:


You know what saddens me the most? Yuuri and Victor will definitely break up in the end. There is no way we're getting a happy ending for this one.
Why do you think they're gonna break up? I doubt they will, cause Yuuri changed the story in episode 3.
Spoiler for spoiler:
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Old 2016-11-18, 16:37   Link #268
shmaster
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Originally Posted by Thess View Post
Maybe this AU reality with a less homophobic community based on the fact everyone wants to sleep with Viktor
If this is what really thE show is going for, and everything moves on as if nothing went wrong next episode... I am going to completely lose hope in the staff's pathetic fujo baiting behavior.
The only place where such a convenient development exists are fujos fantasizing minds.
I don't want any of that in a show I expect the sport gets portrayed seriously.

Not to mention they use the character who has the same first name as Johnny Weir's husband (Weir's husband is named Victor) to make a reference on Weir himself in Ep.7
And those who are more affluent in the skating community can tell you better thant I do on how the community had treated Weir in past years.

If "lol everything is fine" is what I am going to see next episode after their reference to Weir, then may the staffs and their fujo minds be damned.
This almost feel disrespectful.

Last edited by shmaster; 2016-11-18 at 17:09.
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Old 2016-11-18, 17:24   Link #269
Thess
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If this is what really thE show is going for, and everything moves on as if nothing went wrong next episode... I am going to completely lose hope in the staff's pathetic fujo baiting behaviorl.
Wasn't Viktor called the most sought bachelor and wanted man of the whole world? Most popular one too? It's like a parallel dimension where ice skaters are bigger than rock stars, models and movie actors. Anyway, I don't see it disrespectful. This is meant to be a more lighthearted show than an angsty melodrama. There's some drama here and there, but it's mostly comedy and sports. Do you see the press cheerful exclaiming "Love wins!" in the real world? Nah.

I wouldn't say it's a "fujo fantasy" because the troupes and models are taken straight out shoujo, only that Yuuri is a guy.
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Old 2016-11-18, 17:35   Link #270
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Originally Posted by MagnaAngemon View Post
Why do you think they're gonna break up? I doubt they will, cause Yuuri changed the story in episode 3.
Too much foreshadowing with that story. Plus it's all too rosy (their relationship) to stay that way right through the end.
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Old 2016-11-18, 17:45   Link #271
Thess
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Too much foreshadowing with that story. Plus it's all too rosy (their relationship) to stay that way right through the end.
The ending will depend if they'll do a second season or not. If Viktor will try to return to next season as skater or stay as a coach (of Yurio?).

Spoiler for speculation, potential spoilers because of ost??:
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Old 2016-11-18, 19:24   Link #272
shmaster
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Originally Posted by Thess View Post
I wouldn't say it's a "fujo fantasy" because the troupes and models are taken straight out shoujo, only that Yuuri is a guy.
Normally, I would say let us agree to disagree.
But emotionally, this time, I feel I am unable to do that.
To me, what happened here definitely crossed the line.

You say this is no fujo bait but just shoujo trope, but this does not rebuttal my point in anyway.

This anime is a sports show, not a love story. Not to say a sports cannot have a love story worked into a sport show, but we need to get out focus and priorities right.
Which is why your other point above is agreeable. Yuuri and Vik's relationship is used to further developed them in their career. It has a purpose in the story, not because the staffs are dreaming about the cute boys.

By that same token, the homophbia of the figure skating should not be magically skipped over. This is a part of the sport as well. If you don't like the word fujo mind, then I shall use the word shoujo mind then. Relationship without consequences is only a thing of fantasy either way. Especially so when the said consequence is coming from the sports they play.
Oh wait, in shoujo manga, consequences of relationship is actually commonly portrayed. So this makes the staffs worse than your average shoujo writers!

I should say, this really not about relationship or melodrama at this point. But about the accurate depiction of the sport.

P.S. List of things I can't stand in sports manga/anime
1. Creating or removing the rules just so a character can have an impossible win.
2. Everyone magically not having the common sense of the said sports (YoI and homphobia fells in here).
3. Characters being super human and doing completely ridiculous stuff (reason why sports manga almost disappeared entirely from my reading repertoire).

Truth be told. My initial reaction of ep.7 is "gays wins! Yeees!" with my fudanshi heart pounding in overdrive, and actually feel they made a great choice by tossing the Weir reference in this episode.
...only to end up feeling ashamed after I cool down. (why I emotional can't agree to disagree)
No, you don't reference a real life skater who had been met with homophobia with a sex god who is not going to face any backlashes with rest of the world drooling behind him just because. And even if Vik's naming is not intentional, it is still terribly inconsiderate and inappropriate.
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Old 2016-11-18, 20:28   Link #273
Thess
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Originally Posted by shmaster View Post
Normally, I would say let us agree to disagree.
But emotionally, this time, I feel I am unable to do that.
To me, what happened here definitely crossed the line.
Fair enough. I just take it as entertainment, not as anything else.

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This anime is a sports show, not a love story. Not to say a sports cannot have a love story worked into a sport show, but we need to get out focus and priorities right.
Which is why your other point above is agreeable. Yuuri and Vik's relationship is used to further developed them in their career. It has a purpose in the story, not because the staffs are dreaming about the cute boys.
Yup. That's my interpretation at least.

Quote:
By that same token, the homophbia of the figure skating should not be magically skipped over. This is a part of the sport as well. If you don't like the word fujo mind, then I shall use the word shoujo mind then. Relationship without consequences is only a thing of fantasy either way. Especially so when the said consequence is coming from the sports they play.
Oh wait, in shoujo manga, consequences of relationship is actually commonly portrayed. So this makes the staffs worse than your average shoujo writers!
Ehh, that reaaaaally depends of the shoujo. I feel this one is more similar to the fluffy and lightheartened shoujo stories. Because the tone is overall, aside of some kind of skating drama/anxiety, is fairly undramatic? It's funny and heart-warming. That's what is trying to convey: it's not something melodramatic or angsty. That's why Viktor isn't some asshole dominant guy and Yuuri a victim of domestic abuse with a heart of gold (which is also copied on BL for the whole uke/seme stereotypical dynamics). I feel it's a story about some kind of plucky heroine who finally meets her mysterious ex-playboy idol/senpai and is doing what she loves with his guidance to triumph.

Except Yuuri happens to be a guy. But you know which type I'm talking about, I'm sure. Which fits more on the sports medium dynamics.

Quote:
I should say, this really not about relationship or melodrama at this point. But about the accurate depiction of the sport.

P.S. List of things I can't stand in sports manga/anime
1. Creating or removing the rules just so a character can have an impossible win.
2. Everyone magically not having the common sense of the said sports (YoI and homphobia fells in here).
3. Characters being super human and doing completely ridiculous stuff (reason why sports manga almost disappeared entirely from my reading repertoire).
I can understand that, but they were aiming for this to be a lighthearted story, IMO. They are more interested portraying the sport and program than the environment which would be far more unfriendly. There's like no rivalities for real besides the Yuris and that's just one sided butthurt. Everyone seems to love everyone because it's kind of that Card Captor Sakura-like feel.

Personally, I like it. Yuri on Ice isn't a show about some skater feeling the backslash of his homosexual attraction, but about a skater who choked in his big moment, became depressed and was put back into shape by his idol who came to train him. And the relationship between those two would make his potential emerge. Any extra drama would divert from the original core of the story they wanted to tell, you know?

Quote:
No, you don't reference a real life skater who had been met with homophobia with a sex god who is not going to face any backlashes with rest of the world drooling behind him just because. And even if Vik's naming is not intentional, it is still terribly inconsiderate and inappropriate.
IIRC, Viktor was based on John Cameron Mitchell, not on Johnny Weir's husband. I'm pretty sure it's a coincidence his husband is called Victor (because the real story of naming him Viktor is because it means, well, victory, which defines his character?). They just used Johnny's costumes as inspiration for some of Viktor's clothes in his youth and that's it. Incidentally, John Cameron Mitchell is gay too. He came out in the 90s in public. Anyway, they are just models for designs. Nothing else. Yurio's model in real life is a female skater. It's not like they just get anything but superficial design inspirations.
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Last edited by Thess; 2016-11-18 at 20:43. Reason: found the actor's name!
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Old 2016-11-18, 21:18   Link #274
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^^ Tbh there are more aspects in YoI world that will get backlash in the real world besides Yuuri and Victor's relationship, for examples:

- The Thai skater Phichit chose his program's music from the movie King and the Skater, which is definitely a homage to the movie The King and I in the real world, and said movie was banned in Thailand due to Thai criticism of the movie to be offensive to their monarchy (in particular its representation of King Mongkut of Siam). This means that in YoI world the Thai actually moved past their prejudice and actually appreciated the movie, and even have their representative skating to its music.

- The American skater Leo is a Mexican-American. In the real world racism towards Mexican-origin people in America is a real thing, which was cemented by the recent US election. The fact that America's representative is Mexican-origin and doesn't get backlash for it just show how much more positive YoI world is.

In short, due to these characters introduced in ep 6, I have started to think of YoI world as an more idealistic Alternative Universe where humanity is free of homophobia and prejudice and the media can instead focus on the actual development career of the skaters rather than other personal and scandalized stuff. I can understand how some people might not appreciate YoI for not being an accurate depiction of real life, but for me who got tired easily from all the media focus on people personal lives and scandals, I can count on this show for being free of all that pessimistic stuff and focus on watching the very satisfactory character's growth.
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Old 2016-11-18, 21:47   Link #275
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Originally Posted by shmaster View Post
Truth be told. My initial reaction of ep.7 is "gays wins! Yeees!" with my fudanshi heart pounding in overdrive, and actually feel they made a great choice by tossing the Weir reference in this episode.
...only to end up feeling ashamed after I cool down. (why I emotional can't agree to disagree)
No, you don't reference a real life skater who had been met with homophobia with a sex god who is not going to face any backlashes with rest of the world drooling behind him just because. And even if Vik's naming is not intentional, it is still terribly inconsiderate and inappropriate.
Shmas, I think you’re taking this issue a bit too seriously. You think this show is inconsiderate if it decided to downplay or eliminate homophobia which a real problem for the sport IRL. Fine, but wouldn’t that make you label most other sports shows for doing the same offense? I mean, look at Hikaru no Go and how it downplays the real issue of the sport before the manga was made, namely: it wasn't very popular with the youngsters, yet in the manga/show, we have many young (and attractive, no less) boys and girls who dedicated their lives to be pro Go-players. Where is the IRL issue of it being ignored by most of the kids and only being played by old chaps? In addition, the series even tweaks the history of Hon’inbo Shuusaku (a notable historical figure who was one of the best Go players of all time) which almost negates all of the accomplishments of the said figure (thanks to Sai character) just to spice the story up. They did all that and yet, HnG is still remembered as one of the best sport series in Japan, and almost nobody in Japan was offended by HnG’s portrayal of Shuusaku. And let’s not mention how most of the football/soccer anime downplay the dirtier aspects of the sport .

In short, if you consider a sport show is inappropriate & inconsiderate for disregarding some IRL sport issues then there won't be much sport shows left that you can consider “appropriate”, even the very good, excellent and classic ones.
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Old 2016-11-18, 22:29   Link #276
Thess
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Obelisk ze Tormentor explained it better than I could. In general, most sport stories or anime have emphasis on well, good feeling/vibe, because they want people to enjoy the story and the characters. They can't portray them as some kind of backstabbing, scheming, cheaters without ruining the atmosphere (and if someone is, they reform).

YoI is no different, they just lay off the usual friendship as theme to focus on a less filial and more erotic type of love.

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Originally Posted by BloodyKitty View Post
In short, due to these characters introduced in ep 6, I have started to think of YoI world as an more idealistic Alternative Universe where humanity is free of homophobia and prejudice and the media can instead focus on the actual development career of the skaters rather than other personal and scandalized stuff. I can understand how some people might not appreciate YoI for not being an accurate depiction of real life, but for me who got tired easily from all the media focus on people personal lives and scandals, I can count on this show for being free of all that pessimistic stuff and focus on watching the very satisfactory character's growth.
Exactly. It's almost as if the author is choosing that on purpose. Speaking of the Thai stuff. It's not just a version of the King and I, but it's even a homoerotic one (because instead of being a female English governess, it's a male English skater who grows close to the King). It completely ignores the xenophobia and bad blood between certain countries of Asia (cough cough China and Japan, for example) and there's no issue for their athletes to hang out as if they were old friends. There's not a single mean-spirited competition, like the 'idealistic' sports anime world follows (in longer series, the usual 'evil/bad' rivals are just misunderstood/misguided and change). Do you see drugs being a topic too? No. Don't think so.

This environment is why I brought up ancient greek homosocial bonds earlier. Who knows what practices are common and what is not in that setting? Maybe the Abrahamic religions moral standards (which is the most common source of homophobia) are different or not even as strong, so the homosocial practices are fairly common that would have made a scandal like that Instagram picture is just shrugged and remarked with amusement. Just like how the King and the Skater is a thing in Thailand. We don't really know until we get clarification.
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Old 2016-11-19, 01:36   Link #277
shmaster
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Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
In short, if you consider a sport show is inappropriate & inconsiderate for disregarding some IRL sport issues then there won't be much sport shows left that you can consider “appropriate”, even the very good, excellent and classic ones.
I can only say thank you for reciting the reasons why I do not like Hikaru no Go at all.
And I think I also mentioned why most sport manga is no longer a apart for my reading anymore.
But I do understand your point. This is more about me emotionally not comfortable about it, rather than can't understand it rationally.

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Originally Posted by BloodyKitty View Post
- The Thai skater Phichit chose his program's music from the movie King and the Skater, which is definitely a homage to the movie The King and I in the real world, and said movie was banned in Thailand due to Thai criticism of the movie to be offensive to their monarchy (in particular its representation of King Mongkut of Siam). This means that in YoI world the Thai actually moved past their prejudice and actually appreciated the movie, and even have their representative skating to its music.
And I am the most glad that someone brought this up. This is something I have been debating inside myself too! And I had my moment of "...." after I found out about the detail about that music.
But ultimately it bothered me less as it didn't affect the sport itself.
Though, there is a part of me wishing the staffs could have worked the determination of using a controversial piece into Phicit's performance.


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Originally Posted by Thess View Post
IIRC, Viktor was based on John Cameron Mitchell, not on Johnny Weir's husband. I'm pretty sure it's a coincidence his husband is called Victor (because the real story of naming him Viktor is because it means, well, victory, which defines his character?). They just used Johnny's costumes as inspiration for some of Viktor's clothes in his youth and that's it. Incidentally, John Cameron Mitchell is gay too. He came out in the 90s in public. Anyway, they are just models for designs. Nothing else. Yurio's model in real life is a female skater. It's not like they just get anything but superficial design inspirations.
Yes, I am aware Viktor's name is not intentional. But you can't deny a message has been delivered even if they don't intended too. And not just negative messages that I have been receiving.
I even heard there are Weir fans took the message too positively and praising the episode beyond its content.
That's what I mean the staff weren't being considerate.

Though I guess I did not present my point clear as well.
I am not asking the anime to become some intense discussion of homophobia and some perfect replication of harsh reality.
I just don't want the common sense to mysteriously disappear into thin air. Just a reasonable mention of that dark side of the skating world would be enough.
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Old 2016-11-19, 04:23   Link #278
Thess
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Originally Posted by shmaster View Post
I just don't want the common sense to mysteriously disappear into thin air. Just a reasonable mention of that dark side of the skating world would be enough.
Have you considered there's no 'dark side' here? At least not the one you're used to. Bringing up the Instagram picture again, it's not just the amused reaction and comments he received. But the fact that Yuuri wasn't afraid of homophobia backslash because it was uploaded, he was afraid he would mess up in his short program and that picture would give him backslash for "playing around" the night before. There is pressure, it seems, but it is because of their performances rather than their private lives. There is again an attempt to push him to set Viktor ree and make him return to ice skating. Once again, the pressure is on how they do as ice skaters, not their personal lives. Yuuri hogging Viktor's attention and depriving the world of his talent is what is deviant and Yuuri's accepted he'll be hated. Their relationship, as skater and coach, is still bringing tension because people would not accept Yuuri took Viktor away.

It's obviously an Alternate Reality to some degree with the Thailand difference of how open and accepting they are of a homoerotic version of the King and I (Skating one too!). You shouldn't assume a fictional world is a copy/paste of the real world. Why would they want to invest into a dark side of the sport in this sense when in their version of reality this doesn't exist or is unimportant. And anyway, any homophobia drama would get in the way of the plot and Yuuri's character progression (Viktor's too). There's simply no time to address it in a satisfactory way, and it would look completely shoehorned and out of touch with the show lighthearted tone. Don't get me wrong, I don't mind it in another show, in this one, it'll just look forced.

While I understand your gripes, I don't think this is a good show to address any "dark side" in this angle, that's why they did away with all the dark sides on purpose. Anyway, I think the homophobia drama would just be distracting and unnecessary, because it risks reducing the characters' struggle with flaws, dreams and hopes to make a huge deal about potential orientations rather than focus on the realization of their development and plenitude as athletes which is what the show is about. This show is about a sport, specifically about someone who loves ice skating. If you derail it with homophobic drama in the ice skating community, it will get off the rails because if you bring that up, it can't simply be dismissed in an episode or two. It'll make more focus on the nature of the relationship which is secondary to the purpose of the relationship (to make them mature as athletes/coach).
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Last edited by Thess; 2016-11-19 at 04:45.
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Old 2016-11-19, 05:09   Link #279
HalethTO
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Yes, I think it's a mistake to expect gritty realism or tragedy in this 'verse. We haven't seen it yet, so that would be a surprise if it suddenly changed genres. Moreover if you believe this show is strongly signalling the main relationship will be an incidental yet undeniable slow-burn queer romance, you still shouldn't expect long discussions about "srs RL issues" beyond the most immediate concerns of two individuals, a pro skater and a coach who are also lovers. So much has to be accomplished in a short space (12 eps filled with skating), that I believe that Yuuri and Victor and their personal growth will likely remain the primary focus of any future heart-to-hearts.

In addition, you can also get at social issues from the side, by not going into an official Social Justice Speech, but using something more economical and subtle. For example, Gyorgi’s laughably OTT self-pity performances and Anya's clear rejection of Gyorgi to me read like a shorthand shoutout to all the women dealing with an ex who is creepy and manipulative and won't accept that yes they are no longer a couple. I was cheering her when she gave him the thumbs down; I didn’t need her to tell me why she was unimpressed. Considering Sayo Yamamoto also directed Michio & Hatchin, I wonder if she felt Anya's situation and behavior might resonate with other women (and it has). Similarly, if Yuuri and Viktor have an incidental yet undeniable and healthy romantic relationship (meaning it's definitely there but not the main point of the series), then that's already much better queer representation than most BL and GL, which are full of two-dimensional predatory queer men and women and "recruits" having gay panic, whose attraction is only for titillation or a punchline. Just because the very real and serious issues facing LGBQIAP2S folks around the globe aren't addressed in an individual show doesn't mean the show is automatically bad representation. I think you have to look at genre and things like cultural contexts before you can make a final judgment. For me if YOI was a gritty, realistic drama about a sport, then ignoring queerphobia to make everyone happy about Yuuri/Viktor except jealous rivals would be a travesty. But it's not: it's a sports/comedy hybrid. Their world is insular and mostly light-hearted, even if in some ways it resembles ours. So making an undeniable queer relationship between the main characters imo is already a step forward; believe me there's been some very nasty queerphobic comments made about this show from ep1 and they intensified in some quarters as bros tried to show how "manly" they were by being grossed out by having to watch ep7. A few of these nasties have outed themselves clearly alt-right aka white nationalist supporters. OTOH, I've also seen self-identified straight guys who are shipping Yuuri/Victor because the storytelling is making them want it like they might root for a well-done het relationship. So YOI is having some effects even if it is primarily light hearted entertainment.

Note I’m not saying you shouldn’t have shows that address serious social and political issues, but that not every type of show is well-suited for in-depth discussions. Moreover, if you see a slow-burn queer romance treated like its het counterpart (how often do you see characters in a het romance declare they are straight? why do we have to assume everyone’s straight until they self-identify as something different) and accorded the same kind of community support as your average het romance, then I see that as an attempt to put queer relationships on the same level, rather than demeaning them. Again, that doesn’t mean there shouldn’t be shows with loudly out and proud characters. I’m just saying that there should be room for more than one positive model for queer representation in media.

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Originally Posted by Thess View Post
While it's truth in real life, they have a positive reaction to Yuuri and Viktor in the anime. Instagram picture reception was positive (people just teased Yuuri). The translation has been awful in some parts: taking liberties to appear less 'gay' than it truly is - I'm not sure why. Because the kiss and a lot of the scenes would have made more sense if they have done a better job in translating the lines properly (putting "girlfriend" instead of "lover", for example, or the awful way they handled the love speech with random wording that completely went against what Yuuri was saying). For example, when those chicks and Chris confronted them after the Instagram thing, they made it sound like as when will Viktor break up with Yuuri that way.

It's fairly obvious Viktor isn't a 100% heterosexual man and he's always been rather shameless in posting his intimacy in general with social media (Yuuri's teacher also says he's slept around in a very well, polite way). So nobody would lift an eyebrow if he's dating yet another guy, IMO. Look how the audience loudly cheered after they kissed.

Maybe this AU reality with a less homophobic community based on the fact everyone wants to sleep with Viktor (remember, men and women faint with heart-eyes when he winks) since he was a long haired waif. Viktor is some kind of ice skating sex god sent to the mortals or something. Surely it feels that way in that universe. Only his coach and, now, Yuuri see Viktor as a person.
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Old 2016-11-19, 08:14   Link #280
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Originally Posted by shmaster View Post
I can only say thank you for reciting the reasons why I do not like Hikaru no Go at all.

But I do understand your point. This is more about me emotionally not comfortable about it, rather than can't understand it rationally.
You don't like the positivity and optimism of the world presented in HnG? You know, it's thanks to those optimism that HnG become as big as it is and made Go sport more popular than ever in the eyes of the Japanese youngsters (and those outside Japan too, to some extend). So the show's optimism actually carried over to the real world. Isn't that a good thing? Just like Captain Tsubasa & Slam Dunk before it, the optimism and positivity of HnG actually changed the world (specifically, Japan) for the better. That's what good fiction do: they inspire people to change for the better. Or does every story today (in this "edgy" generation) somehow becomes less appreciated if they didn't portray the dirt and grit of our real world? Not every story aims to portray the world as is, not even some stories inspired by true events or real figures. And stories don't have to be that way to be considered good.

As for the tweaks of Hon'inbo Shuusaku story, IIRC not even professional Japanese Go-masters who cherished the legacy of Shuusaku voiced a notable disagreements or negative comments on what HnG did to Shuusaku's story. So, yeah.

I know you have stated that the reason you hate that aspect of sport series is emotional. I just have this urge to respond. You may ignore this if you want.
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