2016-11-18, 03:12 | Link #261 | |
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2016-11-18, 13:42 | Link #263 | |
オンドリャァァァ!!!
Join Date: May 2009
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Don't for get Figure Skating is a homopobic sports. |
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2016-11-18, 14:56 | Link #265 | ||
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Join Date: Oct 2008
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Thess, I suspect you are agreeing with and elaborating on my reply to G, but fwiw YES to your answer. The narrative structure strongly supports the integration of the arcs. You can tease them apart for the sake of analysis, but the joy is in seeing the arcs featuring both. They've been masterfully setting up Yuuri's arc and tying his development as a skater to his emotional growth since ep2, when Viktor speaks with Yuuko and her husband about Yuuri's love life and V determines to facilitate both. They've repeatedly tied his growth as a skater with his emotional growth. Since Yuuri's the main protagonist and the need for him to grow so obvious (from ep1), there was potentially a danger that V would be left as the perfect if quirky coach and skater, a bit too like a Gary Stu. Luckily they've been throwing hints re: V's flaws and need to learn as a coach from ep2 as well, and in that painful confrontation scene and in Yuuri's skating monologue in ep7 the creative team telegraphed very strongly that "yes, let us remind you V's flawed and green as a coach and maybe not all-knowing when it comes to emotions despite not suffering from Yuuri's anxieties". TPTB are making me want Victor's development even more now, and since Y's achieved some measure of growth as a skater and with intimacy, it's V who needs to grow.
By making the development of both men important and integrating both work and emotions into their arcs, the touches, hugs, and kiss become not empty purposeless fanservice, but signs of the slow growth of both men into a loving, equal relationship. Quote:
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2016-11-18, 15:37 | Link #266 | |||
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It's fairly obvious Viktor isn't a 100% heterosexual man and he's always been rather shameless in posting his intimacy in general with social media (Yuuri's teacher also says he's slept around in a very well, polite way). So nobody would lift an eyebrow if he's dating yet another guy, IMO. Look how the audience loudly cheered after they kissed. Maybe this AU reality with a less homophobic community based on the fact everyone wants to sleep with Viktor (remember, men and women faint with heart-eyes when he winks) since he was a long haired waif. Viktor is some kind of ice skating sex god sent to the mortals or something. Surely it feels that way in that universe. Only his coach and, now, Yuuri see Viktor as a person. Quote:
I wrote somewhere else this. Mind you, this is my personal interpretation. I could be wrong. Quote:
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2016-11-18, 16:18 | Link #267 | |
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Spoiler for spoiler:
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2016-11-18, 16:37 | Link #268 | |
オンドリャァァァ!!!
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The only place where such a convenient development exists are fujos fantasizing minds. I don't want any of that in a show I expect the sport gets portrayed seriously. Not to mention they use the character who has the same first name as Johnny Weir's husband (Weir's husband is named Victor) to make a reference on Weir himself in Ep.7 And those who are more affluent in the skating community can tell you better thant I do on how the community had treated Weir in past years. If "lol everything is fine" is what I am going to see next episode after their reference to Weir, then may the staffs and their fujo minds be damned. This almost feel disrespectful. Last edited by shmaster; 2016-11-18 at 17:09. |
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2016-11-18, 17:24 | Link #269 | |
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I wouldn't say it's a "fujo fantasy" because the troupes and models are taken straight out shoujo, only that Yuuri is a guy.
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2016-11-18, 17:45 | Link #271 | |
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Spoiler for speculation, potential spoilers because of ost??:
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Last edited by Thess; 2016-11-18 at 18:04. |
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2016-11-18, 19:24 | Link #272 | |
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But emotionally, this time, I feel I am unable to do that. To me, what happened here definitely crossed the line. You say this is no fujo bait but just shoujo trope, but this does not rebuttal my point in anyway. This anime is a sports show, not a love story. Not to say a sports cannot have a love story worked into a sport show, but we need to get out focus and priorities right. Which is why your other point above is agreeable. Yuuri and Vik's relationship is used to further developed them in their career. It has a purpose in the story, not because the staffs are dreaming about the cute boys. By that same token, the homophbia of the figure skating should not be magically skipped over. This is a part of the sport as well. If you don't like the word fujo mind, then I shall use the word shoujo mind then. Relationship without consequences is only a thing of fantasy either way. Especially so when the said consequence is coming from the sports they play. Oh wait, in shoujo manga, consequences of relationship is actually commonly portrayed. So this makes the staffs worse than your average shoujo writers! I should say, this really not about relationship or melodrama at this point. But about the accurate depiction of the sport. P.S. List of things I can't stand in sports manga/anime 1. Creating or removing the rules just so a character can have an impossible win. 2. Everyone magically not having the common sense of the said sports (YoI and homphobia fells in here). 3. Characters being super human and doing completely ridiculous stuff (reason why sports manga almost disappeared entirely from my reading repertoire). Truth be told. My initial reaction of ep.7 is "gays wins! Yeees!" with my fudanshi heart pounding in overdrive, and actually feel they made a great choice by tossing the Weir reference in this episode. ...only to end up feeling ashamed after I cool down. (why I emotional can't agree to disagree) No, you don't reference a real life skater who had been met with homophobia with a sex god who is not going to face any backlashes with rest of the world drooling behind him just because. And even if Vik's naming is not intentional, it is still terribly inconsiderate and inappropriate. |
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2016-11-18, 20:28 | Link #273 | |||||
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Except Yuuri happens to be a guy. But you know which type I'm talking about, I'm sure. Which fits more on the sports medium dynamics. Quote:
Personally, I like it. Yuri on Ice isn't a show about some skater feeling the backslash of his homosexual attraction, but about a skater who choked in his big moment, became depressed and was put back into shape by his idol who came to train him. And the relationship between those two would make his potential emerge. Any extra drama would divert from the original core of the story they wanted to tell, you know? Quote:
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Last edited by Thess; 2016-11-18 at 20:43. Reason: found the actor's name! |
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2016-11-18, 21:18 | Link #274 |
Raindrop Melancholy
Join Date: Jul 2009
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^^ Tbh there are more aspects in YoI world that will get backlash in the real world besides Yuuri and Victor's relationship, for examples:
- The Thai skater Phichit chose his program's music from the movie King and the Skater, which is definitely a homage to the movie The King and I in the real world, and said movie was banned in Thailand due to Thai criticism of the movie to be offensive to their monarchy (in particular its representation of King Mongkut of Siam). This means that in YoI world the Thai actually moved past their prejudice and actually appreciated the movie, and even have their representative skating to its music. - The American skater Leo is a Mexican-American. In the real world racism towards Mexican-origin people in America is a real thing, which was cemented by the recent US election. The fact that America's representative is Mexican-origin and doesn't get backlash for it just show how much more positive YoI world is. In short, due to these characters introduced in ep 6, I have started to think of YoI world as an more idealistic Alternative Universe where humanity is free of homophobia and prejudice and the media can instead focus on the actual development career of the skaters rather than other personal and scandalized stuff. I can understand how some people might not appreciate YoI for not being an accurate depiction of real life, but for me who got tired easily from all the media focus on people personal lives and scandals, I can count on this show for being free of all that pessimistic stuff and focus on watching the very satisfactory character's growth.
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2016-11-18, 21:47 | Link #275 | |
Black Steel Knight
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Indonesia
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In short, if you consider a sport show is inappropriate & inconsiderate for disregarding some IRL sport issues then there won't be much sport shows left that you can consider “appropriate”, even the very good, excellent and classic ones.
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2016-11-18, 22:29 | Link #276 | |
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Obelisk ze Tormentor explained it better than I could. In general, most sport stories or anime have emphasis on well, good feeling/vibe, because they want people to enjoy the story and the characters. They can't portray them as some kind of backstabbing, scheming, cheaters without ruining the atmosphere (and if someone is, they reform).
YoI is no different, they just lay off the usual friendship as theme to focus on a less filial and more erotic type of love. Quote:
This environment is why I brought up ancient greek homosocial bonds earlier. Who knows what practices are common and what is not in that setting? Maybe the Abrahamic religions moral standards (which is the most common source of homophobia) are different or not even as strong, so the homosocial practices are fairly common that would have made a scandal like that Instagram picture is just shrugged and remarked with amusement. Just like how the King and the Skater is a thing in Thailand. We don't really know until we get clarification.
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Last edited by Thess; 2016-11-18 at 22:47. |
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2016-11-19, 01:36 | Link #277 | |||
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And I think I also mentioned why most sport manga is no longer a apart for my reading anymore. But I do understand your point. This is more about me emotionally not comfortable about it, rather than can't understand it rationally. Quote:
But ultimately it bothered me less as it didn't affect the sport itself. Though, there is a part of me wishing the staffs could have worked the determination of using a controversial piece into Phicit's performance. Quote:
I even heard there are Weir fans took the message too positively and praising the episode beyond its content. That's what I mean the staff weren't being considerate. Though I guess I did not present my point clear as well. I am not asking the anime to become some intense discussion of homophobia and some perfect replication of harsh reality. I just don't want the common sense to mysteriously disappear into thin air. Just a reasonable mention of that dark side of the skating world would be enough. |
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2016-11-19, 04:23 | Link #278 | |
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It's obviously an Alternate Reality to some degree with the Thailand difference of how open and accepting they are of a homoerotic version of the King and I (Skating one too!). You shouldn't assume a fictional world is a copy/paste of the real world. Why would they want to invest into a dark side of the sport in this sense when in their version of reality this doesn't exist or is unimportant. And anyway, any homophobia drama would get in the way of the plot and Yuuri's character progression (Viktor's too). There's simply no time to address it in a satisfactory way, and it would look completely shoehorned and out of touch with the show lighthearted tone. Don't get me wrong, I don't mind it in another show, in this one, it'll just look forced. While I understand your gripes, I don't think this is a good show to address any "dark side" in this angle, that's why they did away with all the dark sides on purpose. Anyway, I think the homophobia drama would just be distracting and unnecessary, because it risks reducing the characters' struggle with flaws, dreams and hopes to make a huge deal about potential orientations rather than focus on the realization of their development and plenitude as athletes which is what the show is about. This show is about a sport, specifically about someone who loves ice skating. If you derail it with homophobic drama in the ice skating community, it will get off the rails because if you bring that up, it can't simply be dismissed in an episode or two. It'll make more focus on the nature of the relationship which is secondary to the purpose of the relationship (to make them mature as athletes/coach).
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Last edited by Thess; 2016-11-19 at 04:45. |
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2016-11-19, 05:09 | Link #279 | |
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Yes, I think it's a mistake to expect gritty realism or tragedy in this 'verse. We haven't seen it yet, so that would be a surprise if it suddenly changed genres. Moreover if you believe this show is strongly signalling the main relationship will be an incidental yet undeniable slow-burn queer romance, you still shouldn't expect long discussions about "srs RL issues" beyond the most immediate concerns of two individuals, a pro skater and a coach who are also lovers. So much has to be accomplished in a short space (12 eps filled with skating), that I believe that Yuuri and Victor and their personal growth will likely remain the primary focus of any future heart-to-hearts.
In addition, you can also get at social issues from the side, by not going into an official Social Justice Speech, but using something more economical and subtle. For example, Gyorgi’s laughably OTT self-pity performances and Anya's clear rejection of Gyorgi to me read like a shorthand shoutout to all the women dealing with an ex who is creepy and manipulative and won't accept that yes they are no longer a couple. I was cheering her when she gave him the thumbs down; I didn’t need her to tell me why she was unimpressed. Considering Sayo Yamamoto also directed Michio & Hatchin, I wonder if she felt Anya's situation and behavior might resonate with other women (and it has). Similarly, if Yuuri and Viktor have an incidental yet undeniable and healthy romantic relationship (meaning it's definitely there but not the main point of the series), then that's already much better queer representation than most BL and GL, which are full of two-dimensional predatory queer men and women and "recruits" having gay panic, whose attraction is only for titillation or a punchline. Just because the very real and serious issues facing LGBQIAP2S folks around the globe aren't addressed in an individual show doesn't mean the show is automatically bad representation. I think you have to look at genre and things like cultural contexts before you can make a final judgment. For me if YOI was a gritty, realistic drama about a sport, then ignoring queerphobia to make everyone happy about Yuuri/Viktor except jealous rivals would be a travesty. But it's not: it's a sports/comedy hybrid. Their world is insular and mostly light-hearted, even if in some ways it resembles ours. So making an undeniable queer relationship between the main characters imo is already a step forward; believe me there's been some very nasty queerphobic comments made about this show from ep1 and they intensified in some quarters as bros tried to show how "manly" they were by being grossed out by having to watch ep7. A few of these nasties have outed themselves clearly alt-right aka white nationalist supporters. OTOH, I've also seen self-identified straight guys who are shipping Yuuri/Victor because the storytelling is making them want it like they might root for a well-done het relationship. So YOI is having some effects even if it is primarily light hearted entertainment. Note I’m not saying you shouldn’t have shows that address serious social and political issues, but that not every type of show is well-suited for in-depth discussions. Moreover, if you see a slow-burn queer romance treated like its het counterpart (how often do you see characters in a het romance declare they are straight? why do we have to assume everyone’s straight until they self-identify as something different) and accorded the same kind of community support as your average het romance, then I see that as an attempt to put queer relationships on the same level, rather than demeaning them. Again, that doesn’t mean there shouldn’t be shows with loudly out and proud characters. I’m just saying that there should be room for more than one positive model for queer representation in media. Quote:
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2016-11-19, 08:14 | Link #280 | |
Black Steel Knight
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Indonesia
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As for the tweaks of Hon'inbo Shuusaku story, IIRC not even professional Japanese Go-masters who cherished the legacy of Shuusaku voiced a notable disagreements or negative comments on what HnG did to Shuusaku's story. So, yeah. I know you have stated that the reason you hate that aspect of sport series is emotional. I just have this urge to respond. You may ignore this if you want.
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