Macross Delta - Episode 5 Discussion / Poll

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by willyvereb

They claimed they can control Var victims. Given how apparently the whole galaxy fears it that's indeed a pretty scary thought.

Yet since it's limited to combatants and strategic assets it's pretty much within the rules of war you previously complained about.

Did I complain about the rules of war? I'm just pointing out that if you're going to absolve the Wind from following them, you're also going to have to absolve their enemies. The same moral relativism that says it's fine to bomb people because you're personally offended says it's fine to retaliate in whatever fashion the victims' friends see fit.

Mind controlling people may be harsh but some would say it's preferable to death.
Nobody complains when soldiers are killed by other soldiers in war.
(Okay, that's a bit of simplification but you should get the point)

You could try running a propaganda that Windemere is responsible for all the Var outbreaks but there's already evidence to the contrary.

No, there is evidence they didn't try to control every single outbreak. They're still the most suspicious ones. The ones who actually profited from it.

Thus yeah, it could very easily backfire and rather fuel the Windemere politics rallying against the New UN Government who now even dared to use libel just to put a smear on their glorious revolution.

It's a fact they attack civilian venues, and it's a fact they invade other planets. Their PR arm would have to be pretty godly for their propaganda to win out over the NUNG's.

So yeah, it doesn't work, Mr. Genocider-kun.

When did I ever advocate genocide? I specifically talked about the responsible parties. From what we've seen, it's maybe a dozen people. Probably more that we haven't seen, but nothing on a genocidal scale.

The world won't unite to kill every single Windemerian like that. Thank God they don't.

Straw man.

You accuse Windemerians for being immoral yet you talk about such strongarm politics casually.
I hope you don't also posses a thin mustache with the accompanying looks.

Yeah, when some assholes bomb your civilians and invade your planets, you bet I'm going to advocate "strongarming" them into regretting it. (Also known as defending yourself. Something not exclusive to insane evil tyrants.)

[LoweGear]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Yeah, when some assholes bomb your civilians and invade your planets, you bet I'm going to advocate "strongarming" them into regretting it. (Also known as defending yourself. Something not exclusive to insane evil tyrants.)

This basically.

When Japan attacked Pearl Harbor, should America have just nodded their heads and accepted that perhaps Japan had a good reason to have killed several hundred of their people?

When terrorists flew airplanes into the Twin Towers and killed thousands, should they have just avoided conflict because otherwise Al Quada propaganda would paint them as evil?

When Zamboanga City in my country got invaded by a militant group, shattering the peace that I personally saw there only days before (as in, I flew out of there literally the day before the battle broke out), should the army have just stood there and watched doing nothing?

Like I said in a previous post, the moment someone does harm to someone else, they better be prepared to face the consequences. If the Windermerians can believe that they can attack NUNS for whatever grievances they may have, why should the NUNS not have the same privilege?

[Tenzen12]

Well, even though many of Japanese actions pre and in WW2 was completely unecessary. It's not like them iniciating war was not without understable reasons.

Originally Posted by LoweGear

Defending their actions in the first place is just as ridiculous, since it's still casting judgement on their actions, just in a optimistic light.... yet that's exactly what we're doing here isn't it?

And just because humanity as a whole did terrible things before doesn't mean we can't call out judgement on said acts - if a girl acted stupidly by not doing her homework on time, and got burned by it as a result, is it hypocritical of her if, as a mother, she calls out her daughter on the same thing, just because she happened to have done it before? That's what history is for: learning the past to ensure that the mistakes of the past aren't repeated.

You know question isn't if humanity did horrible things, but if these horrible things were necessary and justified and many of them actually were. Maybe girls mother didn't do her homework because her best friend had crisis and needed company and if said mother had such experience she might be willing give her daughter benefit of doubt too.

And that's exactly point. No one said Windemere are in right, but so far their action aren't bad enough to condemn them without further knowledge.

[LoweGear]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

And that's exactly point. No one said Windemere are in right, but so far their action aren't bad enough to condemn them without further knowledge.

Well we don't have the gift of foresight or precognition, so all we are doing is discussing what we do know as of episode 5. And from we do know, my opinion is that the Aerial Knights are, as Roger Rambo put it:

Snobby entitled nobles with delusions of galactic supremacy using mind control aloft their silver spires

[willyvereb]

Originally Posted by LoweGear

This basically.

When Japan attacked Pearl Harbor, should America have just nodded their heads and accepted that perhaps Japan had a good reason to have killed several hundred of their people?

When terrorists flew airplanes into the Twin Towers and killed thousands, should they have just avoided conflict because otherwise Al Quada propaganda would paint them as evil?

When Zamboanga City in my country got invaded by a militant group, shattering the peace that I personally saw there only days before (as in, I flew out of there literally the day before the battle broke out), should the army have just stood there and watched doing nothing?

Like I said in a previous post, the moment someone does harm to someone else, they better be prepared to face the consequences. If the Windermerians can believe that they can attack NUNS for whatever grievances they may have, why should the NUNS not have the same privilege?

Yeah, let's not bring up the disaster which was the so-called "War on Terror". Many people think it might've even done better if USA didn't try to invade, at all. Granted it was unavoidable since public cried for retribution.

Seriously, I am at loss of words.
The only difference to what you advocate compared to what Windemere did is the direction you pointing your sword at.
That and using the flimsy excuse regarding laws of war which explicitly doesn't apply to the target of your judgement.
Yay, let's murder Windemerians and push them into poverty for daring to control the Var syndrome.
As I said you lost all moral high ground you attempted to claim before.

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

Well, even though many of Japanese actions pre and in WW2 was completely unecessary. It's not like them iniciating war was not without understable reasons.

Actually their situation is eerily similar to Windemere as a few sawy people pointed out before. some even argue that Kawamori is deliberate in this.

They could've been left alone if they chose to consolidate rather than pushing to attack. They were put on embargo because of their war with China. Rather they became even more aggressive and attacked other neighbors for oil.

Also the entire Japanese leadership knew they can't win a war against the USA no matter what yet all of them feared being declared cowards in war thus nobody stopped Pearl Harbor. And then their unexpected victory encouraged the masses even if the better part of the leadership knew they were doomed. The rest were history.

It's almost equally as bad with the Nazis during WW2. Rather than the "German efficiency" you hear people often harping about it was a crazy despotic rule where political orientation was more important than practicalities. This fucked them over even worse than they already were.

[Roger Rambo]

Originally Posted by willyvereb

Bit unrelated but as revealed bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki was completely unnecessary. They had literally no effect to the Japanese government other than giving them a convenient excuse to blame their loss in war.
Firebombings in general claimed just as much if not more casualties already, the two nukes literally just slipped by the Imperial leadership. They surrendered because the Soviets were about to wreck their shit. Either to avoid the Berlin situation or just because the Japanese feared the Soviet treatment even worse they capitulated to the USA.
Nukes only became relevant following it. Though both countries agreed to support the nuclear bombing as legitimate military action from the US, in reality that was just some damned weapon testing and show of power. It was wholly unnecessary.

I'm not sure that the Atomic Bombing's being less destructive than the conventional bombing campaign is a logical argument for the Atomic Bombing's being especially bad. I don't think the people of either of those cities were much more partial to being burned to death by conventional means.


Though this line of conversation IS Getting a bit off topic.

[BetoJR]

Originally Posted by willyvereb

As I said you lost all moral high ground you attempted to claim before.

He did, did he? Jeez, you guys need to chill out.

I'm kinda worried about what this forum is gonna look like when the shipping wars begin, if these kinds of discussions are already starting to brew, over here... ABOUT HORRENDOUS ACTIONS, shown to be bad and terrifying, no less, according to our own protagonists - and (hello?) common sense. And you're trying to justify them? Defend them? Really? You guys are REALLY scaring me, right now.

[Nachtwandler]

Originally Posted by LoweGear

How does that make it any more right though?

Let's say the Glock company makes a pistol, the model 17. And the one day a person uses said pistol to kill a man in cold blood. Does the fact that the person who used the pistol didn't make it absolve him of his crime? Do you put the blame on the Glock company who created the pistol?

Of course not. You prosecute the guy who fired the gun, not its creators.

Nah. I just made a correction cause some people here saying that all VAR-syndrome cases were Windermere responsibility.

[Tenzen12]

Originally Posted by BetoJR

He did, did he? Jeez, you guys need to chill out.

I'm kinda worried about what this forum is gonna look like when the shipping wars begin, if these kinds of discussions are already starting to brew, over here... ABOUT HORRENDOUS ACTIONS, shown to be bad and terrifying, no less, according to our own protagonists - and (hello?) common sense. And you're trying to justify them? Defend them? Really? You guys are REALLY scaring me, right now.

Your "problem" is you look on whole thing from position of your average citizen. It's natural feel anger and fear when lit if people die, but letting such emotion get better of you when judging other side. It complicate afterwar negotiations.

Just imagine someone would say: "Zentrandi are evil to core, just because they annihilated 90% of humanity, they shouldn't be forgiven and allowed have children and incredible cute readheded ears twitching grandchildren! "

Can't you see your opinion is actually crime against all cuteness of galaxy?! But don't worry If it come to it I will defend you too.

[LoweGear]

Originally Posted by willyvereb

Yeah, let's not bring up the disaster which was the so-called "War on Terror". Many people think it might've even done better if USA didn't try to invade, at all. Granted it was unavoidable since public cried for retribution.

The War on Terror can be discussed at length elsewhere, but it was still a case of retaliation where retaliation is due. It also doesn't excuse the two other examples I stated, one of which I had a personal connection to.

Seriously, I am at loss of words.
The only difference to what you advocate compared to what Windemere did is the direction you pointing your sword at.
That and using the flimsy excuse regarding laws of war which explicitly doesn't apply to the target of your judgement.
Yay, let's murder Windemerians and push them into poverty for daring to control the Var syndrome.
As I said you lost all moral high ground you attempted to claim before.

Who says anything about murder though? Like you said and I explained, nobody minds soldiers killing soldiers, and certainly a war between the UN Spacy and the Windermerian military would be that: a war between the two of them. At very least now, even with the inevitable civilian casualties, that everyone involved has an idea of what they're up against, what is happening, and what needs to be done. It gives people a CHANCE, rather than the surprise attack that the Aerial Knights did upon Al-Shahal, and at least they know who their enemy is.

Once Windermere declared war, they can be declared combatants in all legal senses, and thus the NUNS actually going to war against them would be justified. It's especially more justified in the wake of Al-Shahal, which was an aggressive action performed before the war, and thus if anyone is at fault for reigniting the conflict, it would be the Windermerians.

I mean, why is it right and just to give Windermerians the chance to live peaceful lives, but not for the people of Al-Shahal or Randor to have the same? Do you think the people of the latter two wanted to be ravaged by Var Syndrome? Either everyone gets the chance to live in peace, or at least be prepared to turn the other cheek when you punch someone. I mean, if I have to punch someone for whatever reason noble or not, I don't try to claim moral superiority as a defense for not getting punched back - the moment you become the aggressor, you lose all rights to claiming self-defence.

While the invasion of Vordor was commendable in its execution, that really doesn't excuse what the Aerial Knights did at Al-Shahal and Randor, namely unleashing a known indiscriminate disease as a weapon and fostering it for their own selfish goals.

Windermere and the Aerial Knights cannot claim to be the victim the moment they attacked first and in such a cowardly and despicable manner at that, so if they get retribution they cannot claim to have been unjustly set upon.

[Tenzen12]

Again "selfish goals" is just your assumption. We know next to nothing what kind of their goals are.

[Annorax]

There are people that thinks mindcontrolling local forces to do your bidding instead and be able to use them to target your opposition is in anyway "commendable"?
Than those unequal treaties which, according to knights were imposed on Windamere sure was commendable, no blood spilled!

[Annorax]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

Again "selfish goals" is just your assumption. We know next to nothing what kind of their goals are.

Free(whether they want it or not)) their brethrens of that cluster from NUNS and guide them as the legitimate heir of protoculture.
Glasses said that, the former part in the declaration and the latter part in his room on Windamere.

[azarhal]

Can we kept the real life crap out the episode thread please?

We got a planet who use skirmish tactics with a total disrespect for life (minus Roid from the look of it) because they lack the manpower of their ambitions and have a superiority/inferiority complex. You can agree with them or not, but there is little value in arguing in circle about it using real life events and rules that has no link on anything in the anime.

[LoweGear]

Originally Posted by Annorax

There are people that thinks mindcontrolling local forces to do your bidding instead and be able to use them to target your opposition is in anyway "commendable"?
Than those unequal treaties which, according to knights were imposed on Windamere sure was commendable, no blood spilled!

It was only commendable in the fact that they apparently managed to limit casualties. As to the act of mind control, I've already stated my position on that.

For everything else though, unless I see a good, solid, and actually justifiable reason as to why they're doing this, they're not getting my sympathy. And even then, while it'll make them more understandable, it still wouldn't excuse what they did in Al-Shahal.

[Annorax]

Didnt directed my comment at you... I think I saw some comment regarding that and then just let off some of my thoughts

SO far nothing is really revealed, is the people there happy, what did colonists do, and WTF is WIndamere so pissed and MOST importantly for mecha-fans.
HOW in the world did they got Draken, not to mention the suspiscious SV- designation.
Plot by some weird remnants? Will they be calling back to the game VFX2?

[Tenzen12]

Originally Posted by Annorax

Free(whether they want it or not)) their brethrens of that cluster from NUNS and guide them as the legitimate heir of protoculture.
Glasses said that, the former part in the declaration and the latter part in his room on Windamere.

Yeah it would be nice if it was so simple.

[azarhal]

Originally Posted by Annorax

Didnt directed my comment at you... I think I saw some comment regarding that and then just let off some of my thoughts

SO far nothing is really revealed, is the people there happy, what did colonists do, and WTF is WIndamere so pissed and MOST importantly for mecha-fans.
HOW in the world did they got Draken, not to mention the suspiscious SV- designation.
Plot by some weird remnants? Will they be calling back to the game VFX2?

The simplest solution is that the Megaroad that landed there was full of Anti-UN humans that brought their SV with them and screwed the locals over.

Also, I think that the Windermere King being so pissed at Earthlings only (and not NUN/Zentrandi) that he wants to destroy all of them is probably a clue to what started the conflict. The unsatisfactory trade agreements are just smoke because it wouldn't be limited to Earthlings. I'm not even sure that the "true heir of the Protoculure" stuff has anything to do with it either.

[Annorax]

Originally Posted by azarhal

The simplest solution is that the Megaroad that landed there was full of Anti-UN humans that brought their SV with them and screwed the locals over.

Also, I think that the Windermere King being so pissed at Earthlings only (and not NUN/Zentrandi) that he wants to destroy all of them is probably a clue to what started the conflict. The unsatisfactory trade agreements are just smoke because it wouldn't be limited to Earthlings. I'm not even sure that the "true heir of the Protoculure" stuff has anything to do with it either.

Some form of wierd superiority thing?

[Tak]

When we talk about moral relativism, not all of us are on the same page, unfortunately. What we find abhorrent is not necessarily shared by the mindsets of people from say, China or Russia, where the tolerance for civilian casulties is much higher than ours. For them, its the results and not the process. For them, its perfectly within their mindset to militarily crack down minority religious groups and break into properties without legal proceedings. For us, thats obviously a no no.

So was the Wind justified in what they did? Quite frankly, I don't care. They have made their decisions in the pursuit of an objective and the NUN made theirs as a response. Both sides made their decisions, so its time to man up and owe up to it.

"Thou hast chosen war. That will happen which will happen, and it is to be, we know not. God alone knows." Genghis Khan

- Tak