(L+CR) Overlord Season 3

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by dwm042

A bit of history. On the threat of a President being elected who would ban the expansion of slavery, the slave states seceeded and committed acts of war against the Northern states, starting the American Civil War. You can say, "well, if they had been more patient", but the folks running the slave states were anything but patient.

So, the North didn't "go for a ban". The South forced a war because slaves were so important to them. During the war, to make the political point that the war was about slavery, to even idiot Europeans, we get things like the Emancipation Proclamation.

I wouldn't have spoken, but a bit too much "Lost Cause" propaganda being tossed around..

I know, but my point is, why did the South feel the need to secede? Why did they feel threatened? Where did they get the idea that Lincoln would ban slavery? Why was such a thing in the zeitgeist at all?

Whatever the answer, it's not because some Lovecraftian horror forced the issue through the threat of force.

[Randrak42]

What the hell has the conversation turned into!?

[Kuroageha]

@Fwarlord
I agree.
The King might have had good intentions but he was so awful not only as a leader of his lands but also as a parent. His son Barbro was the final nail for his kingdom had he lived enough to succeed the throne. Good intentions weren't enough and the Emperor knew this, kingdom was going to destroy itself and there was no "hero" that could stop it, Gazef was a lap dog who was going to sink with that ship. It was just delayed thanks to Renner working behind the scenes to paint herself as the princess Climb admires which ironically turns her into a "hero" .
A negligent king followed by a passive warrior chained by politics, both had decades together and accomplished nothing.

Forgot about Marquis Raeven, he also deserves some of the credit too.

[eiyuuou]

By my standards people like you who press their own interpretations as facts with nothing to back them up wouldn't be allowed near a computer.

It is a fact Brain is a murderer and his actions made him worthy a hero to you.
Stay away from a computer if you live by your standards.

you agree you need to have your lifestyle turned upside down to change for the better.
And ainz is literally doing that. A stimulus that will give you an opportunity to change for the better.
You are like Marquis Raeven playing both sides. huh.

Originally Posted by Kuroageha

@Fwarlord
I agree.
The King might have had good intentions but he was so awful not only as a leader of his lands but also as a parent. His son Barbro was the final nail for his kingdom had he lived enough to succeed the throne. Good intentions weren't enough and the Emperor knew this, kingdom was going to destroy itself and there was no "hero" that could stop it, Gazef was a lap dog who was going to sink with that ship. It was just delayed thanks to Renner working behind the scenes to paint herself as the princess Climb admires which ironically turns her into a "hero" .
A negligent king followed by a passive warrior chained by politics, both had decades together and accomplished nothing.

Forgot about Marquis Raeven, he also deserves some of the credit too.

Yes, He failed as a king for his people.
Despite corruption is rampant in his country, he didn't alleviate it, even to the point his own son is involved with the criminal syndicate.
His lack of firmness drove a wedge between the noble faction and royalty faction weakening the kingdom further, despite the empire is attacking them annually.
Despite he knew the first prince was unworthy to be king, maintaining the status quo led to the declining situation. if not for the efforts of renner to support climb, slavery and illegal drugs would still be like a nextdoor pizza delivery.

If he could steel his heart and gave renner the power, the kingdom would have changed for the better.

[Metaneo]

Originally Posted by eiyuuou

It is a fact Brain is a murderer and his actions made him worthy a hero to you.

Again, leaving out things I said and misrepresenting what I said to fit your own personal narrative. I said the person Brain is now and the actions he takes are now heroic. In no way did I say I considered him a hero back when he was a bandit with the Death squad. I said it back in my previous posts, and I'll say it again, in no way did I ever condone his actions when he was a bandit. Try reading what people post.

Originally Posted by eiyuuou

Stay away from a computer if you live by your standards.

My statement was that people who leave out critical information and press opinions as facts shouldn't be allowed near computers, I said nothing about rapists and murderers, so again, changing things to fit your own narrative.

Originally Posted by eiyuuou

you agree you need to have your lifestyle turned upside down to change for the better.
And ainz is literally doing that. A stimulus that will give you an opportunity to change for the better.
You are like Marquis Raeven playing both sides. huh.

Except Ainz isnt changing, the change was made for him by becoming a Lich, infact, he's probably going to be the most static character in this show as his status as a lich would make him changing and growing as a person very difficult. Certainly he can learn new things, but he's never going to change.

[kukuru]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

I do wonder; how would one start to ban slavery in the New World, if they want to do it as a hero?

One thing that was brought up in other places, was that modern Isekai stories almost NEVER ban slavery. The alleged hero may buy and free a slave or two, but slavery itself is just assumed to be something that can't be fought. That it is out of the hero's hands.

Yes, Reener tried to ban slavery in her nation, but it was still happening. And her nation was about to be destroyed by Empire and Theocracy, neither ban slavery as long as only Elves are enslaved.

I guess what I am saying, is that slavery can only be combated by actual military might and subjugation of peoples. People needed to be forced against their will to stop keeping slaves. And the traditional "Hero", could never do such a thing.

Slavery is at it's core a human resource issue. The reason to stop or start slavery is simply a sign of times and technology. Most isekai worlds are simply for lack of better words undeveloped and lack cheap labor of any sort in their world.

To go about slavery, you have to solve a fundamental problem of human resources and it's economy style.

And Aniz actually does touch upon that, for those that read the LN.

While a hero can indeed play robin hood and go around enforcing bans, and toppling the rich and powerful, etc. It's likely impossible to stomp out until you change the economy out of slavery system.

Heck for all the American civil wars, even after the war, freemans had generations of issues, where it was practically slavery, and even to this day, we talk about minimum wages, and worker rights laws, etc, etc, etc. They are not slavery but they sure can skirt the definitions at times in how powerful a human resource problem can be.

So common for slavery to exist then it is not in Isakai stories is more of a universal truth as much as it is a author's vision. It's easier for a world of slavery to exist then it is to not, cheap labor is at it's core pretty enticing.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by kukuru

So common for slavery to exist then it is not in Isakai stories is more of a universal truth as much as it is a author's vision. It's easier for a world of slavery to exist then it is to not, cheap labor is at it's core pretty enticing.

Slavery isn't actually cheap though.
it is cheap only for those who are already well off. The economics is as such that majority of the population can't afford slaves. It is mistaken to think that slaves are somehow something everyone had, when in reality it was always the upper crust that gain from it.

And that's the reason slavery is hard to ban; because those who own slaves, also tend to have power and influence. And you are going to have to basically beat them over the head until they give it up.

[TheForsaken]

Why do you guys think that banning slavery is a good thing?

Why do you think that slavery is bad?

After all, we are not supposed to use our world's moral standard, aren't we?
That's what you guys keep saying, right?

Now, do you realize how ridiculous your arguments are?

Once we stop using our world's moral standard, then the whole good/bad debate become moot.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Slavery isn't actually cheap though.
it is cheap only for those who are already well off. The economics is as such that majority of the population can't afford slaves. It is mistaken to think that slaves are somehow something everyone had, when in reality it was always the upper crust that gain from it.

And that's the reason slavery is hard to ban; because those who own slaves, also tend to have power and influence. And you are going to have to basically beat them over the head until they give it up.

Or...you take a page from history instead. Slavery in Europe and European colonies were banned, not so much because of armed force, but because economics made slavery less profitable and people campaigned for it to end.

[Fwarlord]

Originally Posted by TheForsaken

Why do you guys think that banning slavery is a good thing?

Why do you think that slavery is bad?

After all, we are not supposed to use our world's moral standard, aren't we?
That's what you guys keep saying, right?

Now, do you realize how ridiculous your arguments are?

Once we stop using our world's moral standard, then the whole good/bad debate become moot.

Even if we don't care about moral, slavery is still a very inefficient system, which makes a bad economy. Thus to create a better world, it makes sense to ban the thing completely.

[kukuru]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Slavery isn't actually cheap though.
it is cheap only for those who are already well off. The economics is as such that majority of the population can't afford slaves. It is mistaken to think that slaves are somehow something everyone had, when in reality it was always the upper crust that gain from it.

And that's the reason slavery is hard to ban; because those who own slaves, also tend to have power and influence. And you are going to have to basically beat them over the head until they give it up.

It's cheap. They are disposable labor. The big difference is in modern industrial or post industrial society, we are well educated, high maintenance, and consumerism economy.

The only thing required for slavery is, violence, and much violence, assuming you have a ready source of renewable supply within reachable distance. And the only requirement from the supply side is working hands or bodies.

A lot of isekai supplement it with some kind of magical contract, and bondage system to keep slaves from uprising, but at it's core, it's just simply domination through violence of some form (or more flavorful system, a form of criminal justice system, which is just whitewashing one group slavery on another group).

If you need cheap labor, you quickly be enticed by the most readily form of cheap labor.

[Kuroageha]

Originally Posted by Fwarlord

Even if we don't care about moral, slavery is still a very inefficient system, which makes a bad economy. Thus to create a better world, it makes sense to ban the thing completely.

Is there a better alternative in that world?
When it comes down to efficiency, one is abandoned when there's a better method.

[The 48th Ronin]

Guys. This debate is going nowhere. Can we stop? Or at least go to the novel thread so spoilers can be used for discussion?

[eiyuuou]

My statement was that people who leave out critical information and press opinions as facts shouldn't be allowed near computers, I said nothing about rapists and murderers, so again, changing things to fit your own narrative.

You cannot refute what I have said and dodged the fact to fit your narrative.
Since you don't abide your standards, this is the end of your story.

Except Ainz isnt changing, the change was made for him by becoming a Lich, infact, he's probably going to be the most static character in this show as his status as a lich would make him changing and growing as a person very difficult. Certainly he can learn new things, but he's never going to change.

I said he is a stimulus for the new world. you miss the point entirely.
since you say he won't change, you also mean the values he already has are set in stone
and what did I said about ainz core values, multiple times?

[Fwarlord]

Originally Posted by Kuroageha

Is there a better alternative in that world?
When it comes down to efficiency, one is abandoned when there's a better method.

As the empire has shown us, in the NW you can use undead as a never tired work force to replace humans. Ainz also uses golems to build buildings in Carne village. No need for slaves here.

[CrowKenobi]

Okay, thread reopened. Let's stay on topic of the anime and move the other discussion elsewhere.

[Kuroageha]

Originally Posted by Fwarlord

As the empire has shown us, in the NW you can use undead as a never tired work force to replace humans. Ainz also uses golems to build buildings in Carne village. No need for slaves here.

I was talking about the Kingdom if you follow the chain.
The empire seems to be in experimental phase. Ainz can do it fine but I expect prejudice.

[Fwarlord]

Originally Posted by Kuroageha

I was talking about the Kingdom if you follow the chain.
The empire seems to be in experimental phase. Ainz can do it fine but I expect prejudice.

Ah, sorry, I thought we are talking about how the protagonist can bring change to another world, not how the natives can improve by themselves, because there must be a reason why they keep the status quo for so long.

[ganbaru]

Originally Posted by Fwarlord

Ah, sorry, I thought we are talking about how the protagonist can bring change to another world, not how the natives can improve by themselves, because there must be a reason why they keep the status quo for so long.

It wouldn't be surprising if magic, while being very usefull, might be slowing the general progress of this world.

[Magin]

I finally checked this anime off my list... and well, I can't say it was bad. As we got into the duel, I'm watching and thinking "okay, just shut up Gazef, kill him and get it over with... oh wait, we have another 20 minutes to fill, that's why he keeps going on"

And then Momon appearing at the end there... I'd already gotten the spoilers on who "Ainz" was. On one hand, it would've totally awesome to see the child murdered to show that you have absolute obedience to the Sorcerer King or you die (and for anyone who is totally appalled at that idea, I've watched enough anime where innocent child and adults are killed for about the same offense or even less, so it doesn't bother me). yet I also get that Ainz (or maybe Demiurge pulling the strings) is smart enough to realize that ruling through fear is going to create a TON of unrest and just make Ainz's job harder.

Though watching an entire city get slaughtered as an example... maybe I should go back to Berserk after all.