[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[AuraTwilight]

The fantasy scenes were added by Tohya and Ikuko later

Citation needed.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Citation needed.

All of EP2, specifically the parts where Meta-Battler never reacts to any of the fantasy scenes as they happen, even though he does in later episodes. At the end of the game the story even makes a point of having Beatrice go back over events with Battler and fill in the fantasy scenes for him.

[rogerpepitone]

I thought Van Dine's 20th is more about avoiding cliches than the specific ones mentioned; a more modern version might mention "The Enhance Button" or DNA evidence.

[AuraTwilight]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

All of EP2, specifically the parts where Meta-Battler never reacts to any of the fantasy scenes as they happen, even though he does in later episodes. At the end of the game the story even makes a point of having Beatrice go back over events with Battler and fill in the fantasy scenes for him.

Ha ha that's not indicative of ANYTHING, considering that if they did any tamperings with the texts than they certainly inserted the Meta-World as well. And if the Meta-World is a transcendental plane instead of a narrative construct, then why doesn't Battler react to it when it's right there? If he can't interact with a future edit of an earlier work how can he react to future entries written by those same people?

Basically your idea is unsupported and ill-thoughtout, and Battler's only saving his reactions because of scope of scale. A sword-fight going on in a bedroom is a lot different from fucking giants and golems and god-warriors and towers rising out of the ground and stuff.

[Sherringford]

Originally Posted by rogerpepitone

I thought Van Dine's 20th is more about avoiding cliches than the specific ones mentioned; a more modern version might mention "The Enhance Button" or DNA evidence.

Every time someone mentions the enhance button, I remember...this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uoM5kfZIQ0

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Ha ha that's not indicative of ANYTHING, considering that if they did any tamperings with the texts than they certainly inserted the Meta-World as well. And if the Meta-World is a transcendental plane instead of a narrative construct

...When did I say anything like that? If you're going to mock my argument, at least mock the argument I actually made. What I basically meant was that the final narrative was constructed something like this:

1. Yasu wrote the original mystery, which contained no fantasy scenes
2. Tohya read the message bottle and argued about it with Ikuko, which formed the basis for the meta world narrative in the main game
3. Ikuko invented a fantasy explanation for what happened and wove it into the story
4. Tohya read the fantasy scenes and reacted to them, forming the basis for the tea party narratives

We read the scenes in storywise chronological order, but they weren't actually written in that order.

I hope you aren't seriously suggesting that Battler would have a massive freakout at the magical fight in EP3, but he wouldn't even bat an eye at hordes of goat butlers, stake girls teleporting through doors, and his own piece being eaten alive. Not even a lecherous comment about the stakes' outfits, seriously?

[Jan-Poo]

I hope you aren't seriously suggesting that Battler would have a massive freakout at the magical fight in EP3, but he wouldn't even bat an eye at hordes of goat butlers, stake girls teleporting through doors, and his own piece being eaten alive. Not even a lecherous comment about the stakes' outfits, seriously?

That way you are basically saying that the bad writer is Ikuko for creating a temporal inconsistency between EP2 and EP3.
You are making it worse.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

That way you are basically saying that the bad writer is Ikuko for creating a temporal inconsistency between EP2 and EP3.
You are making it worse.

If she's writing about Tohya's interaction with the mystery, I don't understand why preserving his original reactions while presenting the full narrative chronologically for the reader's sake is somehow bad writing. Would you be happier if the fantasies were presented as flashbacks at the moment Beatrice told Battler about them in the endgame?

[AuraTwilight]

The thing is that Tohya does all the writings, not Ikuko. She just publishes.

The most likely explanation for why Battler doesn't react so much is because he's still focused on trying to solve the actual mysteries. It's not until after he gives up once and redefines his courage that he starts going through the visuals with a fine-comb.

Not to mention you're forgetting Battler's meta-reason for the freakout. It's a response to the Japanese fandom's attitudes.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

If she's writing about Tohya's interaction with the mystery, I don't understand why preserving his original reactions while presenting the full narrative chronologically for the reader's sake is somehow bad writing. Would you be happier if the fantasies were presented as flashbacks at the moment Beatrice told Battler about them in the endgame?

That's bad writing if you write something that doesn't make sense inside the story and requires the reader to know what happened in the "backstage" to understand it.

Inside the stories, the fictional stories, even in the metaworld the third game happens after the second. Therefore if you say that it doesn't make sense for MetaBattler to be surprised in EP3 while it wasn't in EP2 then there's an inconsistency. Tohya doesn't exist inside those stories, you can't use him as an explanation.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

The thing is that Tohya does all the writings, not Ikuko. She just publishes.

That's not how I got it. Tohya comes up with the ideas and Ikuko writes, that means that she does all the stylistic part and narrations and so on, being a more experinece writer than Battler. But nowhere it is said that she never inserted a few ideas of her own, and I would be surprised if she didn't actually.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

That's bad writing if you write something that doesn't make sense inside the story and requires the reader to know what happened in the "backstage" to understand it.

Inside the stories, the fictional stories, even in the metaworld the third game happens after the second. Therefore if you say that it doesn't make sense for MetaBattler to be surprised in EP3 while it wasn't in EP2 then there's an inconsistency. Tohya doesn't exist inside those stories, you can't use him as an explanation.

Ah, I see your objection now. I think we can resolve it like this though... In EP2, Meta-Battler learned about the fantasy scene contents because Beatrice told him about it. But in EP3, for the first time she actually abused meta-world physics to make him think the fantasy was happening in front of his face. It'd be like the difference between a suspicious person telling you some dubious story about X after the fact and that same person showing you a supposedly live video feed of X.

[AuraTwilight]

Eh. It'll do. It's not like it really matters since Meta-characters aren't so much characters as they are literary conceits.

[LyricalAura]

Maybe to an extent. On the other hand, too far down that road and you start ignoring the authors again, and I thought that interview with Keiya implied that there was something interesting and non-obvious going on in the meta-narrative. In the same way that we understand Yasu from looking at Shannon and Kanon, we ought to be able to learn something about Tohya and Ikuko by observing Battler and Beatrice.

[AuraTwilight]

I'm just saying that first and foremost the meta-characters are framing devices and their thought processes don't really have to make sense so long as it gives the illusion of doing so. Battler arguing with the person he thinks doesn't exist? Handwaved away because he represents the skeptical reader and he has to argue with his imaginary opponent so he can present his viewpoint without talking to himself.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

That way you are basically saying that the bad writer is Ikuko for creating a temporal inconsistency between EP2 and EP3.
You are making it worse.

I have a whole other conception with the structure between reality, text and meta-world than most people here it seems...I don't know how far it's different from what people said already, but I'll try.

The way I see it, EP1 is the only version of the "message bottles", be it those by Yasu or Tôya, that we ever get to read. Everything else from EP2 until 6 is Battler's thought process about it.
But I'll put my analysis for that in spoilers because it's so damn long.

Spoiler:

When Battler appeared in the meta-world in the Tea Party of EP1, it was basically the Battler in Tôya reading/hearing about the content of the first message bottle from Ikuko. The dormant memory reacted like "what the hell is this supposed to be? That is not how it happened!!" and created the fighting spirit of Meta-Battler, but the dormant emotions towards Yasu (which I suppose were there) created Meta-Beatrice in order to uphold what was supposed to be protected (the terrible truth).

In EP2 it is basically Tôya who wants to remember (Meta-Battler) and Battler who wants to preserve the witch illusion (Meta-Beatrice) fighting over the content of another message bottle. Wether the magic scenes were actually in there or not is not really important I'd say.
The Battler within could have just said, when Kanon was explained as vanished from a locked room, that this - Beatrice making him dissappear in wisps of smoke - is a possible explanation and using definite memories - the red text - as proof for that. Tôya on the other hand would have argued against it and thought this is nonsense...though would crumble at first, when he seems unable to argue against the facts he remembers who correlate with the content of the message bottles.

EP3 is what Battler/Tôya wrote out of spite because of what he believed had to be true from fuzzy memories and the present reality. Ushiromiya Eva is as alive as he (which can be observed as she was present in the media), but as he is not the culprit she has to be.
So in order to find a culprit they create a story where Ushiromiya Eva becomes insane and kills everybody...though in the end of his thought process Tôya arives at the fact that it couldn't have been like that because it does not correlate with his memories and the reality. Therefore a logic error occurs and the Eva-Betarice Theory is discarded (-> the finale where Meta-Beatrice destroys her).
The Battler who wants to preserve Yasu's ideal though tries to reason with Tôya and sneaks into the narrative in form of Ghost-Beatrice, saying "Look, the witch is still responsible, please believe in her!".

EP4 is Tôya remembering even more of Battler's experiences on the island...so it's quite probable that in the real events Battler never very much left the guesthouse. He never stumbled upon any of the crime scenes until the very end, he only heard about them from others...and at the end he met a sad girl who seemed to want him to remember a certain sin.
When he is unable to remember he starts despairing for a while, unsure if he really is Ushiromiya Battler. If he (Tôya) is not Battler, then he has no right to say anything about what really happened on the island - he has no right to create his forgeries - and thus has no right to fight with Meta-Beato (the Battler within himself).
It is then that Tôya learns/remembers about his little sister Ange who is still alive and waiting...and no matter what, he has to arrive at the truth before he can meet with her. He couldn't look her in the eye when he is still doubting.
It may be hard for many people to swallow or like that, but I think during EP4's meta-world, two thought processes exist parallel to each other. That of Gretel, the Ange from 1998, and Meta-Battler, which is still Tôya wanting the truth. That is why Gretel will dissolve as soon as she only says who she is...she cannot do any more because there is no contact between Hachijô Tôya and Ushiromiya Ange apart from the forgeries she probably reads.
At the end he finds a way to crush the witch's illusion, but he does not explain all the mysteries, thus his inner conflict of fantasy and reason (Lambdadelta vs. Bernkastel) is still unresolved.

EP5 is the Battler in Tôya applying more reason toward the magical explanation (Lambdadelta) and therefore creating the illusion of Beatrice helping Natsuhi. But the part of him searching for the real truth (Bernkastel) creates ways to destroy that peaceful ideal - by sending a detective into the narrative - and thus creates the conflict in Tôya again.
At the end he finally realizes, when he sees how much his reason would hurt people and when he tries including a narrative where Beatrice saves the day, what the reason and the person behind the witch's illusion is and he casts the idea of revealing everything away (defeats Erika).

EP6 Tôya/Battler is now taking the side of magic because he wants to protect the memory of Yasu and what she wanted to do. But the publics need for the truth has begun to grow to large (Bernkastel has grown to powerful) therefore he has to begin his desperate struggle against reason. That he is loosing shows, that the real tragedy was never caused by Yasu/Beatrice, but by somebody else, which is why Bernkastel/reason is able to let an outsider/Erika commit murders within the narrative.
His only saving grace is, that the public eye (Bernkastel and Erika, with the help of Knox's rules) still do not know the full extent of the truth, so Battler can still shroud it - Erika is the 18th person on the island, from the perspective of the people in the time between 1986 and 1998, but Battler (Meta-Battler and Beato) has the final trump card of "Including you there are only 17 people here on this island" -.

EP7 is in my idea not written by Hachijû Tôya, but is a representation of how the ideal of the witch hunters grew wild and uncontrolable (the cruelty of Bernkastel). It is no longer about creating truth for the sake of peace, but only to create a terrible truth to enjoy it. That is why Bernkastel grows more and more evil during the Episodes I think...because she changes from being just Battler's voice of reason into the representation of the public's need for a terrible truth (which is why she is not interested in THE truth anymore during Chiru).

EP8 then again is what Battler/Tôya wanted Ange to keep from this tragedy. A loving memory of her family, but that is endangered by the public wanting to drag everything out into the open.
That is the conflict portrayed in the finale.

So basically for me it's:
Meta Battler: The Battler in Tôya who wants the truth
Meta Beatrice: The love for Yasu in Tôya
Beatrice: Yasu's attempt of shouldering the blame
Lambdadelta: The longing to believe in magic
Bernkastel: The longing for truth
Erika: cold reason and logic

[Renall]

Again, I think it's critical to keep in mind that what we view as the "text" of the individual episodes may not be strictly identical to the actual contents of the message bottles and/or Tohya's fiction. It's possible, albeit perhaps unlikely, that every episode reads like Legend, with only implied magical occurrences (though the reverse is also possible, Legend could've been different).

And even if in any particular episode the magic scenes do appear, there's many things we can't be sure actually do appear, such as:

• The meta-world.
• Any effect the meta-world purports to have on the game (Meta-Beatrice's commentary, Meta-Battler's reasoning, Lambda and Bern's meddling, premature pausing of the game in ep5, Erika's "disruption" of the narrative in ep6).
• Any scene involving Ange, whether it purports to be "real" or not.
• Anything involving Will and Lion, even with any meta-elements filtered out of Lion's existence.
• Anything related to Zepar and Furfur.
• Most of Requiem.

Could some of these things actually be in the notes/stories as written? Maybe, I don't know. I have to think at least some of them aren't, though, which means we're handed the episodes as pre-interpreted meta-fictional constructs. To that effect, we have no idea how much editing has happened before we got what we're reading.

[Swigun]

Originally Posted by cronnoponno

YOU START PULLING OUT LETTERS IN A CHURCH WHERE THE GROUND OPENS UP AND LEADS TO A PILE OF GOLD.

This was hinted in Ep5. Erika and Battler pulling out "things" XD

For Taiwan, it didn't give clue at all, except for Areca Nut.
Basically, if you search on Wikia "Areca Nut" you obtain a lot of places. But if you also search "Ayu", Taiwan is the only place for both of them.

[Jan-Poo]

what we view as the "text" of the individual episodes may not be strictly identical to the actual contents of the message bottles and/or Tohya's fiction

If it was identical to the actual content it would be a major mindfuck. Personally I think this story would make a lot more sense if it was said straight out that no metaworld scenes exist in the messages and the forgeries alltogether. Unfortunately there are hints that metaworld scenes were actually narrated, and it makes all more complicated.

In the beginning (EP1) it seemed like the messages narrated stories from Maria's perspective and were written like a diary describing scenes in first person. But then it doesn't make any sense for her to write about the metaworld considering how rarely she shows up there.

I still can't find a certain explanation for what concern the 18 persons that were killed in the first two stories. It was hinted pretty well that they couldn't possibly have been written in a few days, so it would be incredibly strange if Ange wasn't there.

For Taiwan, it didn't give clue at all, except for Areca Nut.
Basically, if you search on Wikia "Areca Nut" you obtain a lot of places. But if you also search "Ayu", Taiwan is the only place for both of them.

Actually Oliver proved that you could get to Taiwan from the text shown in EP3 alone.
Unfortunately the most vital part was initially minstraslated and corrected only after EP5, so for the english readers it was impossible to understand it until then. It was a very ambiguous text and probably most japanese misunderstood it too.

[AuraTwilight]

If it was identical to the actual content it would be a major mindfuck. Personally I think this story would make a lot more sense if it was said straight out that no metaworld scenes exist in the messages and the forgeries alltogether. Unfortunately there are hints that metaworld scenes were actually narrated, and it makes all more complicated.

Being a fan of mindfucks, I'm of the opinion that the Meta-World scenes are in the text. Because why not, really?

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

If it was identical to the actual content it would be a major mindfuck. Personally I think this story would make a lot more sense if it was said straight out that no metaworld scenes exist in the messages and the forgeries alltogether. Unfortunately there are hints that metaworld scenes were actually narrated, and it makes all more complicated.

Whether a scene is narrated is irrelevant. I can write a book called "Joe Reads The Brothers Karamazov" and contain, within the text of my story, the full text of The Brothers Karamazov, but broken up, interpreted, with scenes narrated by a guy named Joe who is reading the book word for word and going through his daily life at the same time.

Now, is this book The Brothers Karamazov? No, of course it isn't. It happens to have all of the text in The Brothers Karamazov in it, but it isn't The Brothers Karamazov. It's some other book. It has to be read with that in mind.

Likewise, is ep4 Hachijou Tohya's Alliance of the Golden Witch? No, at least not as far as we know. It might contain every word actually written by Hachijou Tohya on the subject. It might not; I think Hachijou Tohya's End of the Golden Witch and Dawn of the Golden Witch almost certainly contained text we do not ever see in Umineko ep5/6. As to what the actual text is of, say, "Ushiromiya Maria"'s Legend of the Golden Witch... well, we can't be sure. Maybe it's a 1:1 transcription of every word in ep1 other than the Tea Party. Maybe it includes the Tea Party. Maybe it doesn't.

Pretty much the sole authoritative answer would be if an individual in the "real world" (assuming we've ever seen R-Prime, that is) references something from the text that they'd only know about if the thing were actually in the text. If a guy says "this is just like the magical debate between Battler-san and Beatrice!" then we have to accept that somehow the meta-world is in the text somehow. To my knowledge, that's never been said. We do know from the TIPS that Erika is present in the text, because it's suggested that her existence as a character is because of speculation that she could have existed on Rokkenjima. That doesn't mean Meta-Erika is, but at the very least it seems Piece-Erika is.

The "magic" scenes are the ones that are up in the air. When the endscroll mentions the strange magic rituals, are they talking about the stakings and magic circles and other bizarre but not overtly magical occurrences in Legend, or are they talking about Kanon fighting a goat butler with a laser sword like in Turn? If it's the former, there's no proof the magic scenes happen in any episode. If it's the latter, we have to believe the magic scenes are also part of the original text.

But I don't think that information is conclusively present.

Actually Oliver proved that you could get to Taiwan from the text shown in EP3 alone.
Unfortunately the most vital part was initially minstraslated and corrected only after EP5, so for the english readers it was impossible to understand it until then. It was a very ambiguous text and probably most japanese misunderstood it too.

I seem to recall you providing a writeup of the Taiwan theory that was 99% understandable strictly through English information well before ep5 came out.