[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 5 End of the golden witch

[Archer]

Originally Posted by Goat-Kun

Has anyone else seen the scene where:

Spoiler for EP 5:

Battler and all of the adults were in the same room with Shannon and Kanon, thus disproving Shkanon. It was right after the gold scene.

I hope noone's posted this before :P

Actually, that's been a subject of some controversy in the last few pages.

[Used Can]

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

Spoiler for Knox's Commandments:

It does not exclude Known Person X, meaning it is someone the story mentions but not necessarily someone who is verifed to be on the island. It could easily be someone mentioned by the story but may be on the island outside from the existing cast.

The problem here is that the number of people (or at least a max) has been stated in red in previous games. The only way we could go around this would be if we can go around the meaning for "people".

V. No Chinaman must figure into the story.

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

Spoiler for Knox's Commandments:

Personally I am unsure of this. Does Erika fit this pattern? She could easily be some person dragged in by Bern into the game from the very same world. The Higurashi reference almost seems to be just fanservice. She doesn't seem to apply here.

Erika doesn't really matter in this case, since she was confirmed not to be a culprit.

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

Spoiler for Knox's Commandments:

VII. The detective must not, himself, commit the crime

This is debatable in terms of who the detective(s) is/are. Erika is stated to be the detective in red by Lambda, but given pieve Battler's moves and the metaworld suggestion that Bern controls him to a greater degree, it is possible that Battler is also a detective. No rule states you cannot have two detectives, so this may be plausible. As an extension, Battler may be exempt from being the criminal.

I think it was said in red he hasn't committed any murders. All we know is that an action of his, in the past, is related to them.

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

Spoiler for Knox's Commandments:

VIII. The detective must not light on any clues which are not instantly produced for the inspection of the reader

In other words, the reader sees what the detective sees. This may suggest that the detective and the reader are of one single perception. Therefore there are no evidences that are hidden from the reader but visible to the detective. In this case, whatever Erika sees is what we see and she is hiding nothing from us. If she is limited so are we. We can therefore trust everything Erika sees.

I wonder about this. In EP4, Battler heard and met with Beato. He stated she wasn't a woman he had met before. One could assume someone was posing as her, but Battler also said hers wasn't a voice he could recognise. So, going along with this, we'd have to assume there's a woman (a human, not a witch) who looks like Beato in the island (who, apparently, knows Battler from quite some time ago, since she seems to know of his English catchphrases). Kyrie and Rosa met her too in EP2 (but, I don't know if that's a POV we can trust, and I won't even bring Shannon and Kanon into this).

There's also the bit in EP5 where he met with Kinzo. (Erika didn't seem to have noticed him, though).

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by ChaosDimension

Ok, that was cocky of my and for that I apologize. Here is my theory that might reveal some insight.

Spoiler for Theory with spoilers:

Ok, so obviously Ryuukishi07 wouldn't use knox's 10 commandments without following at least some of them right? I mean you wouldn't reference the real 10 commandents if you yourself weren't obeying them so why wouldn't Ryuukishi07 do the same. With that, although the commandments are indeed old and have been broken they are still essential to Ryuukishi07's writing and he acknowledges them. Obviously he doesn't truly follow them but uses them as guidelines. Here is where we can analyze a few things. I will list all 10 commandments as well as how likely Ryuukishi07 would have likely followed them them.

I. The criminal must be someone mentioned in the early part of the story, but must not be anyone whose thoughts the reader has been allowed to follow;

This basically tells the culprit must be one of the original 19(18 if you count kinzo being dead, 17 if you count Beatrice as a witch) in episode 1. And that Battler is NOT the culprit since we see in his mind. Ryuukishi07 would likely follow this because since ep is practically a standalone story by itself it would be stupid(*note* my opinion) to have an unknown culprit in that time frame not introduced in the story yet. That means we can't have Bern/Lamda, Any of the demon furniture, A Real/Fake Battler, Ange, or anybody in 1998 be the culprit.

II. All supernatural or preternatural agencies are ruled out as a matter of course;

This one is easy, theories of volcano/typhoon/hurricane beatrice are wiped. As well as earthquakes causing the mansion to collapse or anybody dying of being hit by lightning bolts are void. This also denies that funny theory of Beatrice being the portrait falling on Battler hence killing him in episode 4.

III. No more than one secret room or passage is allowable. I would add that a secret passage should not be brought in at all unless the action takes place in the kind of house where such devices might be expected;

This is obviously outdated and with a crazy mansion I don't think Ryuukishi07 would follow this at all, since he likes creating closed rooms and such.

IV. No hitherto undiscovered poisons may be used, nor any appliance which will need a long scientific explanation at the end;

This one says no weird unexplainable poison should be used. Such as the theory that whatever Battler was drunk on in ep2 that made him hallucinate the golden land. As well as something crazy that will be hard to explain. So no theories of Timed gas bombs or some weird explanation how kinzo caused the boiler room to explode.

V. No Chinaman must figure into the story*;

This one states that no outside foreign person should meddle in the story. This seems to be Ryuukishi07's trap or curve ball because he throws erika into the mix. She's obviously from a different world(hence foreign) and slightly referencing higurashi so this must of those rules that he wants to break.

VI. No accident must ever help the detective, nor must he ever have an unaccountable intuition which proves to be right;

Dunno if Ryuukishi07 will follow this one, but we can assume that Battler will not accidently stumble upon the truth and that theory of small bombs was just there for comedic effect and not an "unaccountable intuition which proves to be right". hehe

VII. The detective must not, himself, commit the crime;

Battler should not be the criminal. Likely.

VIII. The detective must not light on any clues which are not instantly produced for the inspection of the reader;

Upon skimming ep5 this one is frequently shouted to Battler regarding his blue truth so most likely again, no crazy ass theories that might work just because of Devil's proof.

IX. The stupid friend of the detective, the Watson, must not conceal any thoughts which pass through his mind; his intelligence must be slightly, but only very slightly, below that of the average reader;

Battler doesn't have a watson but mostly this showed true throughout the episodes. All the people that help Battler figure out the culprit have been pretty normal(things average people might deduct) So Ryuukishi07 is most likely following this.

X. Twin brothers, and doubles generally, must not appear unless we have been duly prepared for them

This one is easy, Shannon=/=Kannon, I don't even think Ryuukishi07 meant for this theory because one is female one is male. And theres been a ton of times where both are right in front of everybody's faces so he's following this one.

And that's just the first part. Now try reading Dine's commandments and see if that doesn't void a lot more theories. Dine's commandments are located here.

http://gaslight.mtroyal.ca/vandine.htm

Like K/eternal said, that's nowhere from a theory. Furthermore, you didn't read Episode 5, so you didn't check the real wording of the knox commandement he used.

N°2: It doesn't state supernatural things are prohibited: the commandement prevents the detective to use any supernatural means (so, red text)
N°3: Dlanor stated clearly there are no secret passage at all.
N°4: the commandement doesn't contradict being drunk: the effect of alcohol are known and they can cause a very powerful effect, especially for those who are not used in drinking it. Long scientific explanations are however subject to author discretion.
N°5: Not used at all (and since Erika is considered as "no influence to Beato's game", it doesn't contradict with Knox original commandement)
N°6: the wording prevents any assertions or lucky elements.
N°7: Battler is not the detective in Episode 5, which was proved thoroughly in the ura tea party
N°9: This rule is totally different from the original commandement. The ninth rule allow the observer to insist on their own interpretation.

There is absolutely no proof he will bring up Van Dine, especially that Umineko certainly doesn't follow that much Van Dine's usual: love interest is quite lurking here and the red itself is a giant no-no for VD, so using VD's commandements would be really more a problem than real clue.

[milkypink]

Okay, finally finished!

Spoiler for random thoughts, in no particular order through to the end of the ??? party:

- Natushi/Krauss/servants dealing with Kinzo's death at the beginning: clearly they were planning on having him "conveniently disappear" at some later point, so there's no need to keep the body BUT
in previous games, there was always a burnt body.
in my head, I kept thinking "wheretf are they keeping that thing?!" If the body is being stored for OVER A YEAR it certainly won't be in great condition (thus, the burning) but Erika's search later on (should be it considered thorough) reveals no body, and no body is burnt. Is ep5 different in this aspect, that they actually disposed of the body somehow already? Does "disposed of" = thrown out in the woods, and the burning is actually someone retrieving it and burning it to make a point?

- Krauss is the most irresponsible person ever. Seriously. There is no, no way he could be behind all of the murders because he's just so incapable of planning.

- the man from 19 years ago. real, or delusion? even though the red truth says Krauss died "right after Natsuhi heard him on the phone" did she actually hear him? are we assuming that she/Genji are correct in assuming it's a young man? phone lines are frequently not great quality, so it would be difficult to tell. (Plus, Lambda doing the voice apparently made him sound kind of young - if he WAS the baby from 19 years ago, wouldn't his voice have changed by then? It's unthinkable that a 18-19 year old male would still have the higher voice from childhood.) We already know Natsuhi's observations can't be completely trusted, and it's made clear that her constant headaches started from the day that child and servant were killed - could that not just be her guilt eating away at her?

- Erika Furudo. fff. seriously Bern? And with all that commotion about the portrait changing, it was shown for about one minute, and not even seen by any of the main characters.

- On that note, where's Battler's portrait?! I want to see his ridiculous witch getup...

- Battler "jumping out" the window on the third story. A++ for crazy impulsiveness. (Seriously, no one even tried to stop him?)

- Erika was clearly gunning for Natsuhi to be the culprit. She said she sealed all of the doors (/really/?) but I wasn't clear if she actually sealed Natsuhi's, and I suspect she DIDN'T. Even if Natsuhi's POV can't 100% be trusted, I believe she stayed in her room. Therefore, Erika didn't tape the door. Therefore, she already had pinned the as-of-yet-not-committed murders on her.

- on that note, what kind of creepy girl goes around taping closed ALL OF THE WINDOWS (in her bathing suit, no less) before anything's even happened? and staying up ALL NIGHT listening to the sounds in the cousin's room (oh, so many bad 4-koma could come out of that.... things that shouldn't be heard...) so she could insist that nothing out of the ordinary had occurred.

- I am really o_O about none of the bodies being dead when they were "moved" (I guess this actually means they were alive and walked away?!) but it certainly cleared up the problem of the murders being committed between 24 (midnight) and 1am. I'm glad, actually, since the idea of Battler going to bed in a room full of dead people was...

- the discussion about who people aiming for revenge target first/last was interesting. To hold out the one you hate most until the last, and to get rid of those you fear most first seems like a clue (as long as I didn't misunderstand that conversation anyway)

- Beato/Battler shippers will no doubt jump on Battler & Virgilia (and the Dlanor) comparing Beato's game to people who like each other not wanting to speak up first for fear of getting hurt (as well as comparing it to the writer/reader relationship with mysteries)

- Dlanor was definitely a good character (despite her full-on crazy eyes) - she wanted to fight full-power, fair and square.

- Yay, Battler finally understands everything! .... when will /we/?

- the knocking mystery still puzzles me, especially since Erika noting that it could have been recorded seemed to have come from the cassette request earlier, even though that was denied that no one would mistake "a recording that sounds like a knock" for the real thing. I liked the "time-release glue" idea for the letter, but sadly that seems to have been denied.

- as noted by someone earlier, the "closed room" mystery of Hideyoshi is not closed because the room was not searched 100% thoroughly. I don't quite understand why he was killed, however.

- why didn't the rest of the twilights occur? what stopped it? was it because someone was accused using a very logical method, and therefore no lingering doubt was left to separate everyone? as was said, everyone "believed" Natsuhi was the culprit. But that accusation happened at midnight - how did everyone manage to keep together until then? I felt like a large chunk of time was missing somehow.

- why did the twilights occur at all? previously, a letter was sent, and if the inscription was solved, then no one would be killed. but no letter guaranteeing this was sent. (although a letter recognizing Battler's solution was received)
My theory currently exists like this: Beatrice sends the notifying letter if the murders can be prevented by finding the gold.
They could not be prevented this time, so no letter was sent.
She did send a letter acknowledging Battler's finding of the gold and becoming the new head, however. (that solves the knocking mystery... )
Beato gains nothing from the riddle being solved.... directly.
Especially since it doesn't always help.

- okay, so assuming Jessica, George, Maria, Rosa and Genji were all *not dead* when they were found (as their remains were not moved after death), the problem becomes, how, when and where were they killed, and where are the bodies? (with Kinzo's?!) any one of them could become a free agent to kill Hideyoshi, but I'm not sure about Krauss. I have to re-check the time of that phone call.

[k//eternal]

Regarding the spelling of the character Dlanol/Dranol/etc., it should probably be "Dlanor", because Knox's first name was Ronald.

Just an FYI to everyone.

[Klashikari]

milkypink:
-It seems Erika didn't bother taping the rest, because she was taking care of the guesthouse. What is actually strange, indeed, is the fact Eva tapped Genji's room only, unless she deliberately didn't mention that to pin down Natsuhi.

-Erika's preparations were extreme, but her reasoning behind that wasn't bad at all: Battler got suddenly 20 billion, something that can spark gruesome stuff quite naturally. Since the setup was already favorable for that (typhoon, big inheritance, odd riddle etc), there isn't anything strange for an excentric detective to do that.

-Battler's understanding isn't about the truth, but about how his true objective should be: Erika is the spite image of what he was doing from the start (albeit restrained by his own humanity and feelings for the relatives and servants), and now "truth" is more important than simply denying the witches, because the latter can be easily proved with forgery or ignoring evidence, which Erika did.

-Hideyoshi was probably killed in order to frame Natsuhi. There is no proof there was any telephone call (even with Krauss' death red statement), but it was confirmed with the button evidence that Natsuhi was hiding there.

-If the culprit was observing Erika's behavior, it is very likely they can notice that she was already on the move (especially the paper tape). So they stopped that in order not to be caught and/or to frame Natsuhi even more.

[Used Can]

What if they are using the dead bodies as food? After all, it seems Gohda can make anything taste delicious.

Originally Posted by k//eternal

Regarding the spelling of the character Dlanol/Dranol/etc., it should probably be "Dlanor", because Knox's first name was Ronald.

Oh, this makes sense. Thanks.

[MeoTwister5]

More notes!

Spoiler for Ep5 Spoilers:

This section is from the end of the Kakera investigations, the mteaworld scene up to the end of Natsuhi's discussion in Kinzo's study.

- Erika says that the 6 sacrifices could refer to a string of 6 characters. Kyrie says she thought about it before.
- Rudolph and Eva ask how to pull out 6 characters this way. Rosa thinks it may involve English.
- As for the second twilight, they reason that if you remove six characters based on the first, you'd be eliminating words 1, 3, 6, 7, 8 and 9. You are left with 2, 4 and 5.
- The remaining words are the two who are close are town as Battler surmises. Erika congratulates him.
- Moving to the third, Battler and Erika think it is an anagram. Kyrie thinks it may involve character replacement. Battler and Erika think it may involve 11 characters due to the length (?).
- Erika thinks it would be 13 characters since the epitpath states crushing 2 characters. Battler says that based on the sacrifice count, you'd have 5+6 characters giving 11. Since the second twilight mentions 2 peoplel, it comes down to 13.

MetaWorld
- Battler interjects at Bern's usage of his piece self. She says it's because he wasn't around at the time. Lambda says this piece self of Battler is quite intelligent in contrast to when he was in control. She says Bern has better control.
- Battler wonders why Bern is so insistent in solving it. He said the current theories are not bad and Erika and Bern's reasoning are not bad.
- Battler questions that if the epitaph was posted before Kinzo died prior to 1986, and that it could be Beato giving out the letters, what is her aim?
- He thinks it is hope, perhaps to force everyone to solve it with the threat of death. He begins to wonder about Beato's relationship to Kinzo. Perhaps Beato truly aims to kill people to perform Kinzo's wish of a true successor.
- He remembers in game 3 that Eva who is the only person to find the gold was the sole survivor. Thus, the new head.
- He now thinks Beato is loyal to Kinzo's wish. It may involve killing those who cannot solve the epitaph.
- He ponders as to why such a hard epitaph was given to them in the first place.
- MetaWorld scene end

- Maria yawns. Jessica decides to bring Maria up to their room to watch TV. George will go with them to play cards.
- They notice it is already 10pm. Everyone is tired. George asks Erika if she wants to come.
- The adults thank her for her help and suggest giving her a share if it is ever found. She declines saying she just wants to solve it.
- Rosa and Battler continue talking as the the others head up. They talk about this golden land in the 10th twilight. Rosa compliments Battler and Erika for thier skill.
- They discuss further the implication of the ten twilights, the idea of travel and such. Battler suggests the notion of ten days travel from a starting point related to Kyoto (?). Eventually they tire and Rosa goes up.
- Battler finds Erika on the ground floor when her room is on the second. She says she's looking for something.
- They enter the dusty library. She's looking for a book regarding the epitaph. Battler again mentions the allure of gold. She again says she's in it to solve the mystery.
- Battler mentions again Rosa theory of 10 days travel between Kinzo's nostalgic hometown and this Golden Land. Erika agrees.
- Erika takes out an Atlas.
- Natsuhi is in Kinzo's study when Beato appears. They are worried about how things will go this time. The anti-magic toxin is apparently strong this year.
- Virgilia and Ronove are worried about the truth being exposed during this conference. They need to endure for 36 hours before the boat comes back.
- Virgilia propses changing the barrier. The room is likened to a castle about to be overrun. Natsuhi demands this place be defended at all costs.
- The witches propose an illusion strategy but Natsuhi says no.
- They discuss something about Erika being Bern's horse and I think her effect on this secret room of Kinzo.
- Ronove then brings up the previous issue of this 19 year old man who called up Natsuhi. They bring out some mangled chess terms about horses and queens.
- Natsuhi seems to start getting paranoid. She thinks this man that called her might have something to do with Erika. Natsuhi flips her lid.
- She seems to be liking their situation to a king cornered by horses. Virgilia propses that they let the others think Kinzo left his room and is up and about when the time comes.
- Natsuhi rejects it as to why they can keep this farce up until 36 hours from now. She begins to freak from the stress and prays to Kinzo for help.
- Beato urges her to fight despite the stress.
- Natsuhi begins to wonder about her capabilities as an Ushiromiya wife. Virgilia tries to comfort her.
- Gaap appears and seemingly suggests the idea that you cannot check a missing King. Everyone interprets this as making it look like Kinzo disappeared from the mansion.
- They suggest it is the best way to keep the his life status hidden. They also admit this move is very risky.
- Lots of discussion between Beato and Gaap regarding the Kanto earthquake, Kinzo's past and his risks. They discuss trust on magic and all that thing. Most here is undecipherable.
- Natsuhi ends up pondering the current situation. She thinks about holding on to their current plan until she has no choice.

More Notes egads!

Spoiler for Ep5 Spoilers:

The following is the event of Erika/Battler finding the gold, the metaworld, and when he brings the adults to the gold storeroom.

- Erika and Battler are outside. They are searching for some opening (?). Battler congratulates her efforts and she's humble again. (I assume they found it?)
- Lots of text I don't get, eventually comes to Erika suggesting that Battler becomes the head if they find the gold. She says Krauss is arrogant and it would be surprising if Battler usurps him.
- He thinks about a lot of undecipherable things on the succession and money and somesuch. Erika wonders about Jessica's face the next morning if they find it.
- Battler calls her bad (cue Beato laugh for some reason).
- They talk about Jessica and her feelings. Battler is worried about what will happen to the family if everything goes amiss.
- Battler seems regrettful at what he is doing. He sees a vision of Kinzo.
- Lots of undecipherable mental words from Battler. He sees Kinzo poiting towards some direction.
- He snaps back to reality and points out some place (?). He begins to move forward to where the Golden Land is (?).
- Kinzo soliloquey. He wonders is his riddle has finally been solved by an unexpected person. He laughs and calls it a miracle. He tells Beato his bet is won (?).
- Silent scenes of going down a tunnel and a door with the gold. They find a big room with so much gold and a comfortable area. He says the gold is worth more than a salaryman's lifetime earnings 100 times over. He's mesmerized.

MetaWorld
- Lambda explains that this Battler finds the gold and is happy.
- Battler exclaims that while it is similar to how Rosa and Eva found it but never told anyone. There is no true verification by anyone else that it is there, merely a claim.
- Thus, he dismisses it as mere fantasy of the discoverers.
- Lambda says in red that the gold mountain is genuine. All the ingots piled in there are real. There is no cheat to fake it.
- Lambda brings up the vision of Kinzo. He says it is unreal. She tells him to challenge with the blue.
- Battler says in blue that during the excitement of the moment, Battler saw something he mistook for Kinzo in his jet-black mantle and imagined talking to him.
- He says Lambda should rebutt in red. She laughs.

- Battler has a mental debate on finding the gold after calming down. He says something about the true storm about to begin when their discovery is revealed. The rest I cannot decipher.
- Natsuhi is in Kinzo's study when someone knocks. She tells them to keep it down but they ask her to come out.
- The phone rings and she answers. Krauss asks her to come down to the drawing room. He says Battler has solved the epitaph.
- At the drawing room, Krauss says Battler will take everyone there when they gather.
- Natsuhi leaves and finds Eva outside flustered about Battler's discovery. Eva wants to tell Kinzo personally. Natsuhi says she'll do it tomorrow. Eva demands the door be opened.
- Krauss grabs her and takes her to the side. They argue and Genji asks them to stop.
- Beato is surprised that Battler and Erika solved it. Kinzo confirms this, and because Erika declined, Battler is the one who is considered the victor. Virgilia says that since it is solved, the ceremony must ten stop.
- Beato intends to contnue supporting Natsuhi through her tough times due to social obligation (?). They talk about supporting the stupid son.
- The rest of the discussion is indecipherable to me.
- Battler brings them down the tunnel to where the gold is. Everyone is flabbergasted.
- Someone is laughing like mad and saying that the mystery is indeed solvable. Rosa and Eva are embracing each other. Hideyoshi has gone mad with joy (?)
- Erika calls this the world of joy and congratulates everyone.
- Kyrie thanks her for all her help. She says she would not have done it without Battler. She does not want the reward and lets Battler take the credit.
- Battler says Erika shouldn't decide. She apologizes and wonders who should divide the bounty.
- Rudolph and Eva propse 2.5B per person, 10B for whoever is the new head.
- Natsuhi objects as to how the decision of head is made. Krauss also objects and Eva, Rosa and Rudolph enter the argument. Most of the argument I can't decipher
- Rudolph proposes that the person who found it should be in line as head because it is fair (?).
- Natsuhi insists because this is Kinzo's, he should be the one to decide who gets what.
- Eva and Hideoyoshi call a majority vote. They vote for Battler to be head. Rudolph and Rosa have no objections. Rosa suggests they even ask Kinzo's opinion. Kyrie agrees that Kinzo should arbitrate.
- Krauss and Natsuhi panic. They are unable to reply as the siblings press on.
- Erika asks Battler if family councils are always like this. He says he has no idea and will learn (?).
- She I think doesn't understand all this money talk.
- As they continue to bicker, Battler reminisces about six years ago and how their parents faces would darken when the council time arrives.
- They decide to bring this argument to the mansion since no person could realistically haul all this gold away.

Here's some more!!

Spoiler for Ep5 Spoilers:

The next scenes are when they leave the Gold Storage and the MetaWorld after that

- Outside the mansion Erika tries to excuse herself.
- They thank her again for her help and apologizes for such a sameful scene. Eva suggests again that she should get a share. Erika declines.
- Some comment about her wickedness (?).
- Kyrie takes Battler by the shoulder and says things are no good.
- Rudolph suggests that Battler stay quiet when they talk to Kinzo and let him do the talking.
- Battler doesn't seem interested in being the head.

MetaWorld
- Battler is talking to Comatose Beato about how the epitaph was solved. He wonders just what Beato planned if it was solved. Does Beato gain or lose if the gold is found? He assumes that Beato would have considered this and would still gain should it be found.
- Virgilia appears and states in red that Beato gains nothing if the epitaph is solved.
- Battler asks about the nature of the gold now that it is found, Virgilia says in red that the first gold and this gold are now the children's
- This red line doesn't make sense as it stands, need further interpretation.
- Battler now ponders that as to why she does what she does, of she gains nothing whether or not the epitaph is solved. Virgilia confirms this in red.
- In other words, the epitaph is meaningless to her.
- Battler questions Beato's relationship to the epitaph, and why the killer claims that this sacrificial murders will end if it is solved.
- Battler mentions that X=Y should the epitaph give something, but for Beato it is Y=0 (?)
- Battler now questions her methods. Flipping the chessboard over, what would be her point in insisting these events if she has nothing to gain? Revenge?
- He mentions the letters of warning and the precise numbered methods of murder. He mentions how suspicion builds between them and with every murder comes fewer suspects.
- He says that with the slow reduction in number the success rate for each murder lessens. He wonders why the killer would intentionally make it harder for himself.
- He and Virgilia talk about the three reasons of homicide; that one is to deceive, two is to take advantage of evidence and alibis, the third I cannot decipher. Some further talk hard to understand.
- Virgilia suggests that the similarities are coincidental, that people assume it follows the epitaph because they are similar. They eventually shoot it down since the letters indicate that this is the manner of death to be followed. It is clearly by choosing homicide.
- Battler believes it is also to induce fear among the survivors because they'll believe the killings will continue.
- He asserts that all the grotesque disfigurements and manners of killing were intended to strike fear into their hearts.
- He recalls the amount of influence the family members hold in the financial world. He suspects angry employees and such. Could it be revenge?
- He quotes a revenge line of a person is killed in revenge for killing another person's lover due to the pain.
- He then makes a metaphoric point on shortcake as "saving the best for last". While the orders of death change, there is always one person who is always part of the last to die in the games. This person might be a more special victim for the murderer.
- Battler realizes it is him; he always survives to the end.
- Virgilia confirms in red that Battler is not a criminal, he does not kill anyone and this applies for all games.
- Battler says that while Beato spins her roullete of victims, she never kills Battler. He is always left for last.
- He now asks... does the murderer want revenge on him? To make him afraid?
- Virgilia confirms in red that it's purpose is not to instill fear. It is also not a take revenge on anyone.
- Battler says X=Y=0 because now it seems there is no motive for the murders for anyone. If he is the target, then what is the purpose of making him last?
- He turns to Beato, questioning her for initiating a pointless series of murders based on an epitaph. It is meaningless to him and Beato.
- He thinks about the letter, that unless they solve it people will die. He believes that both have some value by some means as they are both now seemingly equal.
- If X=0, Y=0, perhaps X+Y>0? He likens it so RockPaperScissors, that simply illustrates chances of winning and losing. Individually it has no value to the kids as a game, but taken together has a value to the kids in communication.
- IN OTHER WORDS, THE VALUE IS NOT IN THE RESULT BUT IN RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THEM.
- Virgilia confirms in red that Beato does not murder due to pleasure.
- Battler is confused because Beato seems to have no point in doing this, yet it there would have to be one regardless. He cannot figure out what it is.
- He asks her but she does not reply. I think she pats her head?
- MetaWorld scene end

Here's the current set of Red Truth:

Spoiler for Red Truth!!:

Episode 5
- Is Kinzo already dead?
- Kinzo is dead before the start.
- Battler cannot return until the game is properly concluded.
- Natsuhi was drinking tea alone. There was no Beato there.
- Erika is a detective and not a criminal, cannot be a criminal, and no proof is needed for this.
- The detective is not a criminal (Knox Article 7)
- Everyone who exists on the island are together in the drawing room.
- The gold mountain is genuine. All the ingots piled in there are real. There is no cheat to fake it.
- Beato gains nothing if the epitaph is solved.
- The first gold and the found gold are the children's (?)
- Whether or not the epitaph is solved, Beato gains nothing out of it.
- Battler is not a criminal, he does not kill anyone and this applies for all games.
- To instill fear is not the purpose of the murders, nor is it for revenge.

Also it seems Kamar's havign a hard time keeping up with the summaries. Since I have the next 2 days off due to government holidays I can take over the summaries when he stops if he's fine with it. At the rate's he's going he's likely to turn his brain into mush.

[MeoTwister5]

I've officially gone past the scenes summarized by Kamar so everything I post from here on will run in parallel with him or probably just beyond.

Essentially, the contents of this post are summaries of events after the ones posted by Kamar. I'll counter check it with him when he's done.

Spoiler for Ep5 Summaries:

This summary is of the events concerning Natsuhi after the last metaworld scene.

- Natsuhi is apparently making an excuse to keep people out using the "only 2 keys" issue.
- With this, everyone returns to the dining room.
- Eva's threatening Krauss. Krauss and Natsuhi seem to insist that this money is till Kinzo's, so he must decide how it is split. Eva again insists that Kinzo get to it.
- It is made clear that they need money. Krauss however doesn't need it as ASAP as Eva (everyone else too?)
- Battler is surprised a bunch of rich people could have so much debt.
- Krauss mentions about how this discussion is getting old/tiresome (?). They notice it is now 12mn.
- Everyone is tired and Hideyoshi mentions something about smoking.
- They mention something about putting it down in writing. I assume a contract? Natsuhi is angry over this so I assume it's still over the gold.
- There is music mentioned. I assume using a music player to ease the mood?
- Genji arrives. Rosa asks for drinks and cookies. She also asks for cold meds. Krauss comments on Rosa's feelings while Eva says something about not needing rest (?)
- Krauss and Natsuhi gets up. Natsuhi seems to need rest.
- Kyrie congratulates Battler for his accomplishment and tells him Kinzo will not appear tonight. She says he should go to bed when Krauss gets back.
- Shannon and Kanon enter with tea. The aroma eases the tension.
- The adults ask if they heard anything. Kanon says they are not interested in family talk as they are furniture. Wise answer says Eva.
- Rosa complements (?) them on their diligence despite being midnight. Shannon is happy to be of service.
- Hideyoshi rambles about some work in his history during night hours (?) blah blah. He goes then on eating Japanese beef. I think this is completely off-tangent.
- Shannon thinks this is terrible whatever he means. Eva tells him to stop rambling.
- Rosa complements the tea service. Battler asks them to stay since it's full of old people here. Rudolph jokes this is the order of the new head, so they can talk about young things.
- A knock comes. They realize that since Shannon and Kanon are here while Kumasawa and Gohda are in the guest house, who could knock like that? They wonder who it is as the clock strikes. It is now October 5, 1986.
- Genji probably does not knock like that
- Krauss and Natsuhi are talking in a different hallway. They talk about some event and calling the police. Likely refers to the lie of Kinzo being alive, now that the gold is found.
- They are plotting it seems to make it look like Kinzo left for the forest in the morning. They are concerned about Eva's (?) nosiness.
- Krauss is panicking about what to do now that the gold is found and it is only a matter of time before they realize Kinzo is gone. Natsuhi begins to break also.
- Krauss reassures her that no one can get inside, since she has both keys. They hug I think as they try to regain composure.
- Krauss says their disappearance excuse will be only in the last minute and likens it to swordplay (?), saying that poise is critical.
- Krauss says he'll take responsibility in the end. If it all crashes during this typhoon, he'll divorce her and he'll handle the cases so that she and Jessica would have money to live on.
- Natsuhi DO NOT WANT. She wants her tombstone to read Ushiromiya. She wants to be with him no matter what happens. She says something about blood and cutting the neck. I assume she'd rather die than leave him.
- Genji arrives to speak with Natsuhi. He says there's a phone call. The clock strikes 12mn. She asks if it's The Guy. He says it is.
- The man who claims to be her son calls again. This was 19 years ago, just before Jessica and Battler were born.
- She apparently does not consider herself an Ushiromiya before that because she did not give birth. She hears the sound of the sea (?).
- She takes the call in her room and locks the door. This is said to be unnatural of her (?).
- She answers the ringing phone and hears silence. She is irritated and asks the person why he is quiet.
- This person laughs (?) and says he wants to here her voice (?). He directly calls her Kaa-san (mother).
- "I want to play with Kaa-san" (that's some creepy shit)
- She says she refuses, he asks if she's tired due to the family council.
- She gets a chill down her spine and rambles something. She demands to be addressed as Natsuhi and not Kaa-san.
- The caller says the name is nice and rambles something about seasons and love. Natsuhi begins to think this is blackmail.
- He mumbles about the love between them and autumn love. This part is difficult to understand.
- He mentions a nice antique clock in her room that is seven minutes past 12mn (?).
- Natsuhi seems to berate him? His tone of voice changes to a threatening one.
- He threatens her about letting her husband and daughter know her secret. She implores him not to.
- He tells her to check her clock. I think she finds card with words?
- Natsuhi is in complete shock. He mocks her at whatever this revelation is of her past. It's full of words hard to understand.
- Natsuhi is now in panic and asks what his demands are. Money? He says he doesn't want it. He says this wound cannot be healed by money. He talks of his grudge that cannot be suppressed.
- Natsuhi wonders if this is some sort of bad dream but knows it is not. She asks if he's on the island.
- THIS MAN CLAIMS TO BE ON THE ISLAND!
- She claims it is impossible, but he says Erika came to the island during the storm. Her blood freezes. He seems to know Furuko Erika. Why?
- He claims (?) he's calling from inside. He mocks her on what would happen if he is discovered by everyone. He mockingly asks to be introduced, especially Jessica. Cue sadistic laughter.
- He continues to mock her. He says she will receive instructions by tomorrow morning though the phone lines will be cut (he knows the lines will be cut?)
- He instructs her not to leave her room and not to call anyone else. He tells her to go to sleep and close the lights.
- More mocking. She agrees to his terms. He promises not to reveal himself if she abides.
- Natsuhi screams.

Yes ladies and gentlemen shit has officially hit the fan. I now wonder how this all affects the claim of an exact number of people on the island.

On that note I go to bed. I've been on this game for the better part of 10 hours. That's not good for my health at all.

[Key Board]

I've been thinking

can we confirm that the mastermind in all 5 games is the same person?

If the mastermind is the same, then what about the suposed co-conspirators? Does it change from game to game?

Is episode 3's ending a case where things did not proceed as planned for the mastermind and he himself was murdered by Eva?

[Klashikari]

There is no proof the mastermind is always the same. There is most likely a main one, but like in Higurashi, maybe in some Episodes, things turned south.
That said, it is also possible there are co-conspirators, but these might be just spontaneous and not planned that long ago.

[Renall]

I think it more likely there are multiple plots, but only one plotter "wins" each time. As to who and which times they win, that's a matter for speculation threads. But I kind of am hoping that there is not one single mastermind behind everything. It seems corny.

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by Renall

I think it more likely there are multiple plots, but only one plotter "wins" each time. As to who and which times they win, that's a matter for speculation threads. But I kind of am hoping that there is not one single mastermind behind everything. It seems corny.

I try to look at what's in common between the games. For example, Kinzo's corpse is burned without fail in each episode just like Takano's was in Higurashi. However, there's no way Kinzo can be the culprit because of all the red/gold text that counters that theory. (Mabye there will be something revealed in a later episode that puts Kinzo back into play?)

I think there will be a main mastermind behind the mysteries and it will be interesting to see who were accomplices and in which games.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Ssol

I try to look at what's in common between the games. For example, Kinzo's corpse is burned without fail in each episode just like Takano's was in Higurashi. However, there's no way Kinzo can be the culprit because of all the red/gold text that counters that theory. (Mabye there will be something revealed in a later episode that puts Kinzo back into play?)

Even if Kinzo is dead, it's not like his plans can't still be being put into motion. The entire thing with the letters, the money, the roulette in general... could easily be a plan he'd set up long before his death.

[k//eternal]

Yeah, if the mastermind is a single person, my chips are on Kinzo.

[gwy]

While reading the initial part of EP5, this idea occurs to me:

Spoiler for idea:

There are many scenes where Natsuhi and Beatrice were shown, which are *intended* to be interpreted as former hallucinating the latter. How can we be sure of that interpretation? Well, It is either by context or red texts. I do not dispute that. The problem is then that we must consider all scenes shown to us, the players, are always given from some observer's perspective, and we are not always sure of who is the observer. For instance, without the context, we might consider the aforementioned scenes as Beatrice hallucinating Natsuhi instead of the other way round. The prevailing magic scenes can also be explained as given from perspectives of nuts people such as Maria and Kanon. The scene in EP2 church where all Ushiromiya adults acknowledged the existence of Beatrice might be Beatrice (or person X) hallucinating all the others. But the biggest ramification is this: it is a common consensus that in the show what the Battler observers are always real. The problem is in scenes where Battler is shown, we cannot tell whether he is the observer or not. For example in EP3 end, it was shown that Eva killed Battler. But that scene might be shown from Eva's perspective and she merely imagined killing Battler (due to her mental state).

Off to read the rest tomorrow. Hope this tip can be of any help?

[Ithekro]

Orders are orders I suppose.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by gwy

While reading the initial part of EP5, this idea occurs to me:

Spoiler for idea:

There are many scenes where Natsuhi and Beatrice were shown, which are *intended* to be interpreted as former hallucinating the latter. How can we be sure of that interpretation? Well, It is either by context or red texts. I do not dispute that. The problem is then that we must consider all scenes shown to us, the players, are always given from some observer's perspective, and we are not always sure of who is the observer. For instance, without the context, we might consider the aforementioned scenes as Beatrice hallucinating Natsuhi instead of the other way round. The prevailing magic scenes can also be explained as given from perspectives of nuts people such as Maria and Kanon. The scene in EP2 church where all Ushiromiya adults acknowledged the existence of Beatrice might be Beatrice (or person X) hallucinating all the others. But the biggest ramification is this: it is a common consensus that in the show what the Battler observers are always real. The problem is in scenes where Battler is shown, we cannot tell whether he is the observer or not. For example in EP3 end, it was shown that Eva killed Battler. But that scene might be shown from Eva's perspective and she merely imagined killing Battler (due to her mental state).

Off to read the rest tomorrow. Hope this tip can be of any help?

There is no need for Beatrice to "hallucinate", since she was weave whatever she wants (i.e: witches battle etc).
However, Bern stated several times in red that Kinzo was Natsuhi's delusion.

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Even if Kinzo is dead, it's not like his plans can't still be being put into motion. The entire thing with the letters, the money, the roulette in general... could easily be a plan he'd set up long before his death.

Ok, that is possible. Mabye someone is badly misinterpreting the epitaph each game.

Originally Posted by k//eternal

Yeah, if the mastermind is a single person, my chips are on Kinzo.

But do you believe there could be a main murderer for all the games? If you think it's Kinzo what about all the evidence that has been presented against him? It seems each episode adds more to the whole 'There is no way it could be Kinzo'.

[k//eternal]

Originally Posted by Ssol

But do you believe there could be a main murderer for all the games?

Not really, no. I'm just saying if there's a single mastermind, I think it's Kinzo.

The "multiple teams" theory makes more sense to me, though.