2011-07-03, 14:21 | Link #2681 | |
Working the bags...
Join Date: Mar 2009
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As far as destroying her character. I wouldn't go that far, but her actions make it seem like she was gang-raped by a bunch of mindless thugs in a dark alley. She did everything willingly from start to finish. Sure she was video-taped and the boyfriend was supposedly in on it, but the whole bit in Utsumi's bedroom with her freezing up was just way over the top. I'll cut her a bit of slack that she has some issues, but the mangaka has been overplaying that card way too much that I really don't care what happens to her anymore... |
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2011-07-04, 07:37 | Link #2682 | ||||
Tin Can
Join Date: Nov 2009
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I don't like to argue someone's point by proxy, This is also the reason why I am posting here in direct response to Miki's points that was brought over to onemanga by KGL.
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What Yuki is said is not "I have been think about my ex for the whole journey", but "I have been thinking how to get rid of my ex's memories for the whole journey". I cannot help if people want to twist the actual spoken words of another person to fit what they want believe. http://www.mangafox.com/manga/ge_goo...08/c087/7.html Actual spoken words. This "it doesn't matter how she phrases it" reminds me of a argument between a couple, where one side twists every word of explaination of the other to make the other side sound wrong. "There is nothing between me and the other person, we are just friends." "Well you sure have been getting friendly...in bed!". That kinda thing. The fact is, Yuki would not have need to do this if there was no relationship assymetry...from her having an unconcious defensive reaction during sex..which is from her left over trauma due to having sex (which ruined her life). Their relationship was progressing when until that issue mainfested. I do not understand how can someone link an unconcious action to "she is still in love with that former lover". People seem to treat this like something she can control. This is akin to telling the person with schizophrenia to stop being schizophrenic, or telling a person shivering in the cold to "stop shivering". Quote:
Yuki feels this on a certain level. Which is why she asks (point 1) http://www.mangafox.com/manga/ge_goo...08/c087/5.html and says (point 2) http://www.mangafox.com/manga/ge_goo...8/c087/14.html http://www.mangafox.com/manga/ge_goo...8/c087/15.html This is not a recipe for a lasting relationship. Patience and Kindness will run out once Utsumi starts feeling that what he is doing is a chore (which he will eventually in time if they continue like this). Then what of Yuki at that time? True, Yuki is somewhat of a worrywhat, in that she sometimes overthinks about the future. However, Yuki's unlying fear for the future is not unreasonable considering Utsumi set himself out to do the unrealistic. I am not going to put Utsumi on a pedestal and say he is a saint. Utsumi is a nice person, but he is also a normal person. However, his solution for Yuki's problems is not realistic and his actions at night reinforce that. This is also what drives Yuki to do her not-so-well-thought-out ultimatium. "but is purely to make herself feel better." assumes that Yuki would actually feel better after the breakup. This will remain to be seen, but I believe that the breakup would make Yuki feel even worse for time to come. I do not understand the insistence to read misguided good intent solely as malicious self-protection. It is normal for a person to not want to see their loved ones suffer for them, hence the clamoring for mercy-killing in some circles. There is always multiple motivations to a person's actions, which is the same for mercy killings (which is why it is so controversial). However, people are insisting on only seeing the negative. Is it because the scenario provokes an emotional response? Logically speaking, Yuki can have motivations of protecting herself and protecting Utsumi at the same time. It could even be that she reasoned that this would be for the best for both of them. Yuki does have flawed logic and have not considered the possible impact from her actions. What she is doing is basically tampling on Utsumi's hardwork, her assumption that Utsumi can recover from this completely is 50-50 at best, her "all or nothing" ultimatium is too hasty and not realistic. Yuki took too long a view, neglected to assess the impact of things in the short run. These are all the flaws in Yuki's thinking. However, people seem dead set on making the intent "bad" or "lol he should have just raped her" or "she only wants a jerk". (The last two are completely missing the point of these events, not to mention only open to Utsumi because of who he is). The fundamental issue here is relationship equality, Yuki wants to give as much of herself to Utsumi as Utsumi's devotion warrants. Yuki also knows that if this inequality is to persist, they have no chance in building a lasting relationship. Quote:
Unfortunately, Yuki's is not a professional nor can a (even qualified) individual set his/her own treatment schedule. What she did is going to be of limited effectiveness and might make things worse. What they should have done (which I had maintained from day one) is that they should get someone professional to help them. This is where her actions are wrong. Even if they don't want to immediately contact a professional (which is what people normally do), they both could have attempt to tackle the sex issue slowly, in a piecemeal fashion. Unfortunately, the two options in this scenario is "HERE AND NOW" shock therapy (Yuki) and "Buries Head in Sand" avoidance of problem (Utsumi). Quote:
No. The breakup is completely avoidable if Utsumi or Yuki make a few different actions. I put the blame on both of them equally. The underlying issue in a breakup is whether the couple still loves each other or not. From my perspective, they do, which means they shouldn't break up. Obviously, Yuki could have not done all these and we would not have a problem. This just takes a little bit of optimism, consideration of Utsumi's short term welfare and cool-headed thinking. However, the issue of her unconcious reaction will still have to be addressed. Frankly speaking, as I have said before, if Yuki could handle everything from her past by herself, then Utsumi would never have been needed to break down her walls. On the other hand, Utsumi could have diffused the issue by proposing a realistic solution they can work on together, instead of shutting down Yuki's proposal completely (aka "I already told you...") and wanting things to be "as they are in the past" (basically avoiding the problem). Last edited by Rainrir; 2011-07-04 at 08:20. |
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2011-07-04, 10:32 | Link #2683 | |
Eye for an Eye
Join Date: Apr 2008
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2011-07-04, 11:52 | Link #2684 | |
Tin Can
Join Date: Nov 2009
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Yes, it was tactless. Hence, my point that Yuki didn't handle this well at all. However, we are readers. We need to look at it from what exactly is being said. |
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2011-07-04, 11:52 | Link #2685 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: California Dreamin'
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Also, by telling Utsumi that fact, she is planting the seed in his mind, "is she thinking of me right now, or him?" or "how do I compare to him?" In fact, Yuki knew Utsumi was wondering this, since he expressed concern about why they were going to her hometown in the first place. So, it was highly insensitive of her to tell him that, yes, in fact, instead of simply creating new memories with him, she was taking him to places where she was certain to be haunted by the ghost of Tohru - even if she is trying to exorcise that ghost from her heart. Yuki doesn't seem willing to do the work necessary to heal herself. Breaking up with Utsumi was much easier than having to go through the slow therapeutic process you describe, which is indeed what she may have to do to overcome her trauma. That is why I find her actions cowardly. To respond to your comments regarding Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder, I am personally familiar with anxiety issues as well. It takes serious commitment to changing your former thought patterns to overcome them. Whatever "love" Yuki may have for Utsumi, it wasn't enough to motivate her to attempt to work through her issues with her boyfriend. The two of them really haven't been dating for that long; they could have just slowed things down a bit (no sleeping next to him in a loose kimono might help). That is why I think she is doing this for her own immediate peace of mind rather than Utsumi's happiness. In moments of stress, it is often a matter of "fight/flight" response, and Yuki chose to flee the source of discomfort: her relationship with Utsumi. You are correct in saying that intelligence is not the issue here. Smart people make stupid choices all the time. So, what I should have said is that the early chapters gave me no indication of how emotionally fragile and wounded Yuki really was, so her recent behavior has been a surprise to me. I suppose pain has the ability to make narcissists of us all, but the fact remains that she has hurt Utsumi badly. I still believe she must earn the right to get him back. Oh, and KLGChaos, for what it's worth, I always enjoy reading your posts as well. |
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2011-07-04, 12:25 | Link #2686 | |||
Tin Can
Join Date: Nov 2009
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When we see how damaged she is, the of course Tooru taking up space in her psyche is to be expected. Since you put it that way, then what you mean is that Yuki isn't over the "Tooru Trauma" and what she has are not quite "feelings"....which is basically the distinction I am trying to draw. That means we are on the same page. Quote:
The main argument I made was to do with the non-self centred side of her intent, to either solve the problem or spare Utsumi a drawn out relationship with no future, was good or not. While her intent is good, I think her methods are misguided and wrong. I repeat, I think her intent....is mostly understandable and I don't feel they can be called absolutely wrong,. Quote:
Good Intent, but flawed execution and thinking. Yuki wasn't fully rational because she forced herself into a "two extremes plan". There is a logic behind her plan, but it is onesided and did not cover all the bases. This is another place where she can do things better. However, I wouldn't go to say Yuki DOESN'T want to solve the problem (that would be Utsumi). It is just that she is misguided in thinking that the problem can be solved in her way and not giving herself another option to solve the problem. By virtue of trying to actually take action, I would say that Yuki tried more than Utsumi to solve the problem. Utsumi only took action to avoid the problem (he does it because he cares for Yuki though, but again avoiding the problem is not a solution for the long term). What Yuki is more guilty of is being too hasty. In her mind, it is either "PROBLEM SOLVED HERE AND NOW" or "THERE IS NO HOPE AT ALL". She is wrong there. This is bad thinking on Yuki's part, but let's not forget she is the one with the trauma, fear and feelings of guilt (to Utsumi). That sorta explains why she comes up with a extreme solutiion like this. Last edited by Rainrir; 2011-07-04 at 12:56. |
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2011-07-04, 14:46 | Link #2687 | |
The Shermain
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: NY
Age: 44
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I've stated most of my personal feelings on the issue over on OM. I felt neither one handled the situation that great, due to a lack of ability to communicate or work through things. Utsumi needs to make some concessions and stop repeating himself over and over and instead prove what he's trying to say by finding another way of helping Yuki. Yuki, despite convincing herself she's doing all this for Utsumi, is obviously not quite as self-sacrificing as she may believe herself to be (hard to tell, because we don't get a real insight into her mind, like we do with Utsumi). If she explained to Utsumi what she was doing he may have been more accepting of going down memory lane with her as a form of therapy (well, up until she asked him to basically rape her in the old library-- that went WAY overboard). In the end, as MikiMata said, part of it is selfishness on her part, too. She may have good intentions, believing that Utsumi will be happy with someone else, but they've only been dealing with this sex problem for a couple of weeks and she's already pushing him away because she can't handle the guilt and is at the same time disregarding his feelings in the matter. On top of that, her trauma really has dictated pretty much how she's handled everything in her life-- from the Ice Queen persona to needing to find out if there's still nice guys out there to pushing Utsumi away multiple times. I still believe that Sasuga is overdramatizing the whole thing (I know you mentioned that the original version was going to be much darker until her editor struck the idea down-- with good reason, I think, it IS a shounen magazine despite catering to an older audience and the original concept lends itself more to Seinen). Sasuga carried that darker aspect over to this new form of trauma, treating it as a much worse scenario, but also as you said, however unlikely it for her to connect the betrayal by Tooru to sex, it can happen. It's a manga, so pushing the boundaries of belief is to be expected. And while it may be true that they can't just talk their way through this problem (seriously, if what Tooru did messed her up this badly, she NEEDS professional help), they barely even tried to communicate their own feelings, which spells doom for any relationship.
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2011-07-05, 19:41 | Link #2695 |
flargansbog
Join Date: Mar 2006
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Spoiler for 88:
I don't want to see him mope around all depressed for another 10 chapters. I hope Yuasa helps him to move on from Yuki. It'd be nice if Yuasa comforted him in his time of need, and then they got together. Third time's a charm right? |
2011-07-05, 21:33 | Link #2697 |
Wordy b@stard
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Mid-Tejas
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This series is about one thing:
Self esteem. (or the lack of it and how it colors one's decisions.) When you look at each character's self esteem, it tells you everything you need about their motivations and subsequent actions. Everything I've read so far has been in alignment with each character's level of self esteem. I'm still enjoying watching how the players in this manga deals with their own issues... or side step them. Very well written. |
2011-07-05, 21:49 | Link #2698 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: California Dreamin'
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Awww. Darn.
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2011-07-06, 00:23 | Link #2699 | |
❤Ichigo 100%❤
Join Date: Jan 2011
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2011-07-06, 03:07 | Link #2700 | |
I am a Boxer
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Where hot girls are fighting!
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he's still young.,. And Yuki was his first girlfriend...And everyone know his character... I wonder if Risa is going to fight Yuki.. This time....
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Tags |
being good sucks, drama, kento boss, romance, shoukento, shounen, slice of life, yukiumi |
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