The domination of yaoi: yuri is forever an uke

[ninryu]

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

Then yuri must be suffering an extreme case of Misaimed Fandom, because I know far more lesbians who read yaoi than I know ones who read yuri, and every yuri convention I've ever heard of has been packed with smelly basement otaku neckbeards.

And now I'm being dragged going to a yaoi convention in October even though I don't have the slightest interest in yaoi, simply because I know there might actually be other girls there...

Maybe I should just give up on trying to make friends with other anime and manga fans...

..Eh?... As much as I know most of the yuri fans are girls...

[karice67]

Originally Posted by DonQuigleone

If there is actually "male oriented" and "female oriented" Yuri, what's the main difference between the two?

Hm...just a guess, but might female oriented yuri be more about the emotional/psychological rather than the physical aspects of relationships?

Of course, that theory falls completely through the roof when you consider that rabid fangirls of both yaoi/BL and yuri seem to love the physical aspects of it too.

Originally Posted by DonQuigleone

To my mind, BL or GL could be mistaken as just being "very intense friendship"...

Come to think of it...you do know that if you put it this way, then a fair amount of shounen manga would be considered 'BL'?

=======

Originally Posted by Akito_Kinomoto

*snip*

You do realise that the discussion between the two of us has continued mainly because you keep bringing up things that have already been addressed?

Spoiler for length:

re: my use of josei
I applaud the effort you've put into linking everything, but would also like to point out that you're largely referring to what I wrote incorrectly. Whenever I used "josei" to refer to the demographic, I explicitly said "josei audience" - i.e. I used 'josei' as an adjective. (I did leave out "manga" in these posts, but I also subsequently noted that "I haven't been very clear on this idea".) Other than that, I think I've been consistent about using "genre" and when referring to works of a particular type (e.g. josei manga), and "demographic" when referring to a particular audience (e.g. josei audiences).

re: definitions of josei audiences
?? I've always thought 'maturity' was a question of one's mental attitude and not necessarily a reflection of age. YOU were the one who brought up 'age' as part of the definition of 'josei audiences'.

re: editing wikipedia
You can certainly say that other points are erroneous. Though I think it would be strange if the parts in question aren't actually erroneous. The part I thought needed editing was a grammatical (or definitional) issue which you seem to have quoted.

Originally Posted by Akito_Kinomoto

Josei manga merely refers to the demographic; someone could very well be in their late teenage/adult years and have the mindset of a typical nine-year-old, or be a fujoshi.

How in the world does a kind of manga refer to 'a particular section of the population'? (Once again, a rhetorical question.) Given that this was what I was correcting you on at that particular point, I thought it was obvious what the major error on wikipedia was, but I guess not. My apologies for not being more explicit.

As for

Originally Posted by Akito_Kinomoto

And all I said about Josei was that it is merely a demographic;

I actually pointed out earlier that "josei" refers to a general literary genre in Japan. Otherwise my workmates in Japan used it in the broad sense of "all women (in this particular company/amongst the staff)" demographic, which is clearly not the type of demographic we're talking about here.

But of course you're going to come back again to all of the above with "you're too focused on semantics/definitions (not to mention grammar)". Putting aside grammar, (which I only bring up in this post because that's the major problem in your last rebuttal), I still think the definitions are important, because statements like "BL/yaoi is like josei in a different package" show that the poster hasn't read many BL and/or josei works.

But does that matter given what you asked in the first post?

Certainly, your original questions generally pertain to WHY BL/yaoi is more popular than yuri, not WHAT everyone thinks yaoi/BL and yuri are. However, I still think people need to know what kinds of works they're talking about in order to answer your questions, and I don't see how anyone can form an opinion about what kinds of works they are without actually trying enough of the works in question.

Or to put it another way, having opinions about WHY something is =/= having opinions about WHAT something is. Especially when the WHAT is pretty well defined.

But as I have said before, if you don't think it's necessary to be know what we're talking about, that's fine by me. It is your topic, after all. So this will be the last time I present the arguments in this third section of the post.

--------

But if you keep accusing me of things I have/haven't done, I reserve the right to defend myself as per the section under the spoiler tag.

====

That aside, as for using larger, bolded font to try and emphasise a point that people ignored, I'll be more careful next time.

[synaesthetic]

I'll take it on a case-by-case basis, just like I do with everything else. I don't make blanket statements like, "all RPGs are awesome" because some are really, really terrible. Same goes for yuri; I'm not going to make blanket statements and say that all yuri is for horny basement trolls and sexually objectifies lesbian relationships, because it doesn't.

I pretty much figure I'm good when it comes to reading yuri manga as long as the author is female. She should at least know how the female body is put together/works.

[darkchibi07]

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

I pretty much figure I'm good when it comes to reading yuri manga as long as the author is female. She should at least know how the female body is put together/works.

...which is kind of funny a lot of yuri manga I come across are done by female manga-kas, and they're either from the shoujo, seinen, or josei variety.

[Akito Kinomoto]

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

I pretty much figure I'm good when it comes to reading yuri manga as long as the author is female. She should at least know how the female body is put together/works.

Originally Posted by darkchibi07

...which is kind of funny a lot of yuri manga I come across are done by female manga-kas, and they're either from the shoujo, seinen, or josei variety.

I would never actually know what the demographic would be until I look it up. For example, when I read Girl Friends a while back, I assumed it was shōjo just because of Milk's previous work in Yuri Hime, and then I learned it was a seinen, serialized in Comic High!, which bills itself as shōjo for guys or something to that effect. But Kuchibiru and Girl Friends felt so similar that sometimes I wonder if the only thing that separated them was their official demographic. I've never had any trouble pinning down the audience for a hetero romance, but yuri seems to throw me off the scent a lot of the time.

[Seitsuki]

Everything needs more yuri. Everything.

As for why yaoi sells more though..

1- supply and demand
2- biggest demand and market is for moeblob, courtesy of your stereotypical buys-20-CDs-a-time otaku
3- which leaves the next biggest market as the fujoshis.

Or at least that's how I've always seen it >_>

[BaKaBaKaOtaKu]

Yaoi has a huge and solid fanbase since Yuri is like EVERYWHERE. i mean, yuri fans are getting fed already with all the fanservice in animes almost all the time, so they don't need to be SOLID fans.

And as for me. YAOI IS FCKING GROSS!!!

*throws up* if i were a girl, i'll never appreciate seeing a guy be so submissive over the other. Atleast two women getting at it with each other seems more natural.

and admit it, YURI IS MORE TOLERABLE.

[erneiz_hyde]

I can tolerate yaoi as long as the uke is someone like Hideyoshi from bakatest.
and I'm a male.

might be reinstating someone else from before, but imo, yuri as an anime genre is certainly lacking, but as a sub-genre, it thrives everywhere. Perhaps because it's already everywhere, not much feels the need to make a whole anime dedicated to it.

[BaKaBaKaOtaKu]

Yeah. But to compare yaoi subtext to yuri-subtext, yaoi is practically nothing. (I hate Clamp) Well, I think you're right at the YUri as a genre, was lacking.

Let's see it this way: Despite fangirls not being fed with their yaoi-subtext, they actually are-- with pure yaoi, that is. anyway, i sort of prefer glaring subtext over the actual thing. Subtle over Explicit. XD and I still can't tolerate Yaoi. Dx

[risingstar3110]

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

Then yuri must be suffering an extreme case of Misaimed Fandom, because I know far more lesbians who read yaoi than I know ones who read yuri, and every yuri convention I've ever heard of has been packed with smelly basement otaku neckbeards.

And now I'm being dragged going to a yaoi convention in October even though I don't have the slightest interest in yaoi, simply because I know there might actually be other girls there...

Maybe I should just give up on trying to make friends with other anime and manga fans...

Isn't it because they tried to avoid the stereotype that if you are a girl and going to yuri convention, then you are a lesbian?

And male basement otaku look less gay if they shows that they into girl (or girls in this case).... just saying in...

[ninryu]

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

Isn't it because they tried to avoid the stereotype that if you are a girl and going to yuri convention, then you are a lesbian?

And male basement otaku look less gay if they shows that they into girl (or girls in this case).... just saying in...

But she already said she's a lesbian..
And I'm a girl and interested in yuri, but not yaoi. So what?

[synaesthetic]

I had thought my lesbian-ness had already been established here?

I actually know more straight girls who like reading yuri manga than lesbians... I don't think this is actually representative of the larger numbers, because most of my friends who are anime or manga fans are not gay. The gay folks I do know... they aren't into manga to begin with, so they don't read yuri.

I'm going to the yaoi con mostly to hang out with friends and for an excuse to wear a lolita dress without people giving me WTF looks. Also, meet some new people. Since a yaoi con is going to be filled mostly with girls--whether they're moderate yaoi fans, fujoshis or lesbians who prefer yaoi, it ought to be interesting.

[Jan-Poo]

The last thing I would expect from a yaoi con is to see girls in lolita dresses...

Are you sure you won't get any WTF look?

Well maybe reality is different than how I expect it to be...

[synaesthetic]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

The last thing I would expect from a yaoi con is to see girls in lolita dresses...

Are you sure you won't get any WTF look?

Well maybe reality is different than how I expect it to be...

The friend bringing me went last year, and yeah, from her descriptions it was not what I expected it to be either. I expected a yaoi con to have a few moderate yaoi fangirls, a boatload of fujoshis and a second boatload of gay dudes. But apparently, the gay dudes are in the extreme minority, and the place is practically crawling with fujoshis.

Anyway from the pictures, there were at least a half-dozen other girls sporting lolita fashion last time she went.

[Syntron]

As long as there are shows like Madoka, im not complaining about a lack of yuri. Seriously, that seasons best show was pretty much about a lesbian timetraveller trying to save her love, resulting in the most awesome nude hugging superdimensial sparkling climax. I had barely time to pull off my goggles, throwing them away yelling "fire in the hole" before they detonated in a glorious fireball of yuri subtext overload.

As for canon yuri, there are enough mangas to keep me busy i'd say.

[darkchibi07]

Originally Posted by Syntron

As for canon yuri, there are enough mangas to keep me busy i'd say.

That's nice. Now if we can only get some U.S. manga company to bring those over that'll be MUCH better. There should be a sizable selection to choose from unlike before.

And I would DIE for an all yuri-themed convention in the U.S.

[Kameruka]

I'm surprised that nobody ever mentioned Wild Rose, a Yuri Hime spinoff featuring raunchy yuri mangas that even Yuri Hime itself dare not to show them. It is obviously made for male gaze than anything else.

The only thing I like about yuri is how it parodying shoujo genre. SOme of the yuri mangas prefer to use shoujo style art while completely ironic that no girls are reading such yuri mangas in first place. Yes most straight girls avoid reading yuri as much as straight guys avoid yaoi.

[risingstar3110]

Originally Posted by ninryu

But she already said she's a lesbian..
And I'm a girl and interested in yuri, but not yaoi. So what?

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

I had thought my lesbian-ness had already been established here?

I actually know more straight girls who like reading yuri manga than lesbians... I don't think this is actually representative of the larger numbers, because most of my friends who are anime or manga fans are not gay. The gay folks I do know... they aren't into manga to begin with, so they don't read yuri.

I'm going to the yaoi con mostly to hang out with friends and for an excuse to wear a lolita dress without people giving me WTF looks. Also, meet some new people. Since a yaoi con is going to be filled mostly with girls--whether they're moderate yaoi fans, fujoshis or lesbians who prefer yaoi, it ought to be interesting.

I just means there will be girls who feels that they would like to avoid such assumption, and then others like synaesthetic feels uncomfortable that she's the only few girls going there so she won't return after the first time

Haven't gone to one, but synaesthetic did mention that she does not see many guys in the yaoi con. Which possibly due to the same reason.... i think...maybe...

[ranran]

Originally Posted by darkchibi07

That's nice. Now if we can only get some U.S. manga company to bring those over that'll be MUCH better. There should be a sizable selection to choose from unlike before.

And I would DIE for an all yuri-themed convention in the U.S.

Amen, sister.

And I think that the lack of girls in Yuri con is probably because unlike girls who likes Yaoi, girls who likes Yuri and go to Yuri con more often than not would be labeled as 'lesbian' by general assumption, when they are not.

Huh. I don't think I'm making sense here, sorry @_@

[kitten320]

Why? Because no matter how you look at it girls are crazier fans then guys so whetever appeals to them will sell better and faster.

I like both genres but what I find unfair is that biggest part yuri has just slight romance in it, a simple hand holding is rarety while almost all yaoi shows get things done and usually almost in first few episodes.