[Manga] Chapter 443 Discussion

[HayashiTakara]

Sasuke was a loner he felt everyone held him back from being godly.

[DeDe]

Originally Posted by HayashiTakara

Shikamaru was promoted because of his intelligence, not his leadership skills. His innate abilities had the promise to be a good leader.

No, Izumo and Kotetsu explained it in chapter 109. Shikamaru was promoted for his leadership skills. They mentioned how protecting your team from danger is more important than completing the mission. You have to balance out the risks and sacrifices to complete a mission. Shikamaru was the only one who showed the calculating thoughtfulness you need to be a leader. And Kishi has been hyping him as the best leader since then. But he also lacked any ambition and drive which is why he was stuck as a chuunin during the timeskip.

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

Shika himself wasn't all that great in the way of teamwork/leadership until he was given authority. He didn't do much of any brilliant planning in the Forest of Death and just let Ino make most of the decisions.

Actually he did. It just wasn't shown. When Shikamaru fought Temari during the chuunin exams, Ino said(chapter 107) that they would not have made it out of the Forest of Death if it weren't for Shikamaru leading them.

[HayashiTakara]

Originally Posted by DeDe

No, Izumo and Kotetsu explained it in chapter 109. Shikamaru was promoted for his leadership skills. They mentioned how protecting your team from danger is more important than completing the mission. You have to balance out the risks and sacrifices to complete a mission. Shikamaru was the only one who showed the calculating thoughtfulness you need to be a leader. And Kishi has been hyping him as the best leader since then. But he also lacked any ambition and drive which is why he was stuck as a chuunin during the timeskip.



Actually he did. It just wasn't shown. When Shikamaru fought Temari during the chuunin exams, Ino said(chapter 107) that they would not have made it out of the Forest of Death if it weren't for Shikamaru leading them.

Shikamaru wasn't leading anyone, his tactical prowess was what impressed them. Since he showed what he was capable of, he had promise of being a good leader. He showed he had the qualities of a leader that was it.

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by goldenarms

Hmm, I don't really remember Sasuke as being impulsive.... As I remember it, he was actually the more rational minded strategist of the team 7, since Sakura was pretty much useless and acted like a stuipd girl, and naruto acted like a loud overconfident braggart who always had something to prove, and was usually charging in without much planning.

I also remember Kakshi stating their weaknesses as he exploited them during their first bell test: Sakura the dumb groupie girl who's mind is on Sasuke, and naruto who is the loud braggart who (while everyone else was hiding) stood right in front of Kakashi ready to charge in. Sasuke on the other hand was shown to be more of a "think first" type of player.

Sasuke was talented and smart, but relied on his own strength rather than teamwork, and that's why he failed the bell test right along with Naruto and Sakura. He got a little better during the chuunin exams, but he quickly became a loner again once he got the CS.

Originally Posted by DeDe

Actually he did. It just wasn't shown. When Shikamaru fought Temari during the chuunin exams, Ino said(chapter 107) that they would not have made it out of the Forest of Death if it weren't for Shikamaru leading them.

Mm yeah, you're right. Still, the chuunin tournament was the big "reveal" of Shikamaru being a brilliant leader/strategist. Until then, he came across as mostly a slacker who could be clever at times. And we didn't really get to see him take leadership seriously until he was put in charge of a mission.

[Cub-Sama]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

Sasuke was talented and smart, but relied on his own strength rather than teamwork, and that's why he failed the bell test right along with Naruto and Sakura. He got a little better during the chuunin exams, but he quickly became a loner again once he got the CS.

I think he is finally starting to pick up on teamwork again, maybe this shows him slowly becoming good again because when he became a loner again he was evil now he is going back to team work and he cares about his team.

[goldenarms]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

Sasuke was talented and smart, but relied on his own strength rather than teamwork, and that's why he failed the bell test right along with Naruto and Sakura. He got a little better during the chuunin exams, but he quickly became a loner again once he got the CS.

I was only commenting on you calling him impulsive (my first sentence up there). You are right about the teamwork though, I wasn't arguing that.

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by james0246

Um, the ANBU did try to join the fight with Orochimaru, but the Sound 4 put up an impenetrable barrier to prevent them from helping.

I didn't mean it as them wanting to help or not. Instead, if they had gone for help, wouldn't they be victims to the techniques both Kage-level were using? Or maybe speed up the death for Sandaime, if he were to protect those weaklings too.

But your point, working with others = trusting others, is correct...but Naruto has not really shown this, so it is kind of a moot point.

He actually did trust anyone he worked with. It took longer than usual compared to another ninja, but, at the end, he accomplished that. And, the more he grows, the easier that process will be. But, at the end, how much you can trust to someone you don't know well. Using that kind of thinking actually prevents the idea of working with anyone to be implemented in real life. There should be a reason, why, after all those years Neji, as a jounin, still hangs out with the likes of Gai.

And, if I think about it, if I see that Shika is getting assigned to a lot more different groups, maybe that merely shows his quality rather than what is required from Naruto. We meet the same key word once again, exception.

I didn't say that Naruto had to better than Shikimaru, buthe has to at least follow in his example in regards to leading a group. So far Naruto has not sufficiently led a group nor planned a mission or strategy that a group must emplot in order to attempt to comlete a mission (his brief act of teamwork with Sasuke back in chapter 20 or so notwithstanding), so he does not even compare to the shadow of Shikimaru, let alone the man himself.

Shikamaru, if I am not mistaken, did not do that leading kind of thing at a level you want to see from Naruto until after he became a chuunin. And if Shikamaru did not do that, then it is highly unlikely for Sakura=Ino, Chouji, Tenten, and Lee doing more of that during the exams they passed.

So, to me this shows that Naruto does not need to actually show that he is a leader, rather, you would like to see that he is to some extent capable of leading. And that is not solely related to him actually having the leading experience. Rather him having the decision making ability to show that he can make rational and good decisions. And, so far, against Pain, Naruto made some good decisions. There were times he lost control, but other than that, he showed that he is capable of such judgment. And, I think his last judgment of wanting to face Pain alone is a big step towards that level.

Sometimes compatibility and skill go hand in hand. Shikimaru's team, Hinata's team, the various Akatsuki couples, etc. But, sometimes compatibility will be non-existent for the mission. ... In a real example from the series, Why si Ank with Yamato and Sai outside of the village tracking Kabuto? Why was Yamato's team sent at all? Why was Sai there if he was/is a member of Root? etc. It was their various skills that were needed (snakes, wood, and ink), not their personalities.

I am not going to talk on the hypothetical example (which may actually trigger the question how much the members of that team know about medical jutsu. If Ino knows then so does anyone with similar mentality and gender.)
Now for the real example. Interestingly all people who were sent for that mission did have some real connection to Oro's Kabuto. Yamato and Sai were the members of the team that were sent to question Sasori's spy, who happened to be Oro's Kabuto. And Anko was together with Oro to learn a lot more on him and his people compared to any other. So that makes Anko being a member of the victims of Oro association just like Yamato, so maybe they actually knew each other from before (just kidding). But, considering Oro's past with Yamato, I won't be surprised if Anko and Yamato had some connection from before, resulting in them knowing each sufficiently to not require us question the compatibility they may both share. In short, their compatibility plus their skill sets was the reason for them becoming a team (and I wonder who among them is the healer).

As a finla note let me also say this. If they both want the goodness of Konoha the most, and both have sufficient experience and trust in each other, then there should not be an issue of compatibility. They should be well beyond that point. But, we cannot say the same for the kids, and the not much experienced ones. Again, no need to bring Shikamaru, he is an exception. I can also say the same for Sai, who has been living his life under the shadow of Anbu. But, for the others, that doesn't have to be the case.

[Gamma_Sennin]

Originally Posted by Hanzoman

And, you think their speed after opening the gates isn’t proportionate? You think its still not relatively fast compared to the rest of the ninjas in part II? That’s like saying naruto’s rasengan is only strong compared to what gennins where capable of, but as we see he still has use for it, it still kills. He was training since part I, and we can bet team guy was also. We can safely assume all their techniques have become proportionately strong.

I did say Id believe his strength speed would have been improved... but at what rate is unknown... but remember all ninja's from part 1 would have improved so, ive just used that moment as an indicator as its the only viable source.. seeing as lee's only part 2 fight was against himself... Also speed and strength are his physical characteristics... the way his speed is demonstrated is proportionate to the lvl of nin he is fighting against... he isnt going to be flying around kakashi or any high lvld jounin.. at most those battles were chuunin lvl... and rasengan is a poor comparison, as its been proven that a genin lvl ninja such as konohamaru produced something drastically smaller.. which suggest's it lacked the same power as naruto's.. and its affects on hell realm were rather limited... what i tried to portray is that although lee is extremely fast, against current level garaa his gates ability (if we assume they progressed at a similiar rate) would still have little affect.. whereas Sage mode would.. that was basically to show the gap in the strength of each one's hax.

I actually don’t remember this fact, can you post a reference?

Hmm it was from chpt 246 but he actually say's he has better taijutsu.. which i guess would count against a released gate lee.. but yea kakashi has been shown to be extremely fast.. seeing as a requirement for chidori is exactly that... and as we know sasuke obtained lee's speed after releasing his weights for that purpose... so i guess if anything we can at least say kakashi ain't no slouch

He actually put up a very good fight against Pein, which pein admitted himself.

O no doubt.. I was highlighting that kakashi's taijutsu was matched by deva even without the use of shinra tensei... it was kakashi's ability to think ahead and divulge a plan against his 5 second cool down that helped him succeed as much as he did..

Your point being? Gaara came very close to losing that match, and up until then, Lee was the only ninja to have damaged Gaara that much. Thats pretty good, all things considered.

I think you should re-read this... garaa was never actually wounded by lee, it was sasuke who landed the first blow, causing him to see his own blood for the first time.. he pushed garaa all the way, but even lee admits it.. whilst watching sasuke fight garaa that more than just high lvl taijutsu is needed to defeat someone of his capabilities..

Kisame has a massive amount of chakra, which is evident by the high caliber techniques he was still able to use with 1/3 chakra. Gai was under a tremendous amount of water which must have weighed tons… What would anyone else have to do to get out of that much weight? Probably something major as well. So yes, he used 6 gates on a 1/3 Kisame, but Kisame was no contest against a 6 gated Guy, he just got knocked out plain and simple. You’re making it seem like Guy was fighting with 6 gates open the whole time, once that gate opened the fight was over.

Again Im not sure exactly what i put, lets blame it on the late night, but all i was trying to say is he had to release 6 of a possible 8 to compete with kisame who is only 1/3 of his original self... yes he defeated him easily.. but does that mean 6 gates is comparable to a 50 percent kisame... who knows.. however what we have seen from sage mode against the 6 bodies of pain, the strongest ninja seen thus far in the manga, really does dwarf the achievements of the gates... but then I can also admit that there was also naruto's skill which complimented his hax

Please let me know exactly how you know what he thought? Didn’t at least know of Konoha’s Hokages when he made that statement? If they were alive at the moment, wouldn’t they still be in the top tier ninja bracket?

that is indeed a good question, I dont think it would be as simple as saying yes, minato/sandaime are on the lvl of those that I listed, because it might not be the case... Pa did say naruto had surpassed his father, but more or less naruto/sasukes inclusion to the list is also based on what they will become, along with what they already are.. minato also admitted that a special power is required to defeat madara, and was something he didnt possess... sandaime might be the hardest to gauge as apart from his aged form we know nothing more than hype from other ninja's.. also what kakashi said is that if u open the 8th gate you will basically be hokage lvl... which is rather ambiguous in a way as kakashi has been proclaimed as hokage lvl by tsunade/J_Man.. furthermore Pain/Madara are nin's which exceed anything kakashi has seen, this is what I was getting at.. so 8 gate hokage mode as godly as it could be, would it even reach the heights of those I listed?

I’ll definetly agree that Neji and Lee aren’t top tier, but you seem to be seriously underestimating them… especially Neji. Maybe I should just clear up a common misconception? Some people tend to think that when he uses his 64/128/360 hitter, he can only hit an opponent’s chakra points? If he wanted to, he could hit someone 100 or so times in their head, heart, lungs and/or any other vital organ… Once you get close you are very likely dead. At this point he can probably be similar to “Ken” from the Fist of the North Star anime. Once he lays his hands on you you’re dead.

I agree neji is elite, my argument was that the gates which most see as godly, to the point they can even imagine lee/gai even competing on the same lvl as someone like pain... is definitely overestimating.. Deva's taijutsu compares to kakashi and he has his tensei abilities to compliment that.. if we use naruto's statement as a guideline, then if kakashi's taijutsu is greater than lee's who has access to the gates and deva was able to defend with what seemed like ease at times... this further accentuate's the difference in power of SM and the gates..

Fail badly huh? I’d bet sage mode is stronger, but I wouldn’t say it “fails badly in comparison”. They’ve done some pretty impressive things strength and speed wise after flinging those gates open – the only thing I haven’t seen is them throwing a summon into the air or lifting a humongous rock. Still, they were pretty damn impressive.

Again I agree.. fail badly was actually a rather imprudent statement... Gates are extremely strong... but on the same lvl as sage mode? with the whole death thing obviously not..

[HayashiTakara]

The only thing that makes Sasuke better than Lee in Taijutsu is Sharingan.

[DeDe]

Originally Posted by HayashiTakara

The only thing that makes Sasuke better than Lee in Taijutsu is Sharingan.

Considering the sharingan is one of the ultimate hax powers in the manga, that's a pretty huge advantage. Both Naruto and Sasuke are simply in a different league now. Maybe Sakura can hang around because of her growing expertise in medical ninjastu and Shikamaru because of his brain and leadership skills, but the other Konoha kids have been badly passed and are just about irrelevant.

[Sasuke_Bateman]

Spoiler for mhm:

Naruto and Nagato talks.
Nagato fires a black rod from his wheelchair.
Naruto takes it to his stomach.

He then sees Jiraiya's death and how Kakashi died from Nagato.

Nagato[Thoughts?]: I try to manipulate Naruto and take him back, but Naruto is resisting the black rod.

Konan: To repel Nagato's chakra at this range, what a kid.

Naruto: [I don't get what he's saying, sorry]
Naruto's eyes turn into frog + Kyuubi eyes

Naruto: I can't forgive you, I want to kill you right now!

He charges at Nagato

But he stops just before him.

Naruto: I don't know anything about you, why do you hate [Konoha]?
Talk to me!

So Nagato starts talking

I have two pain[ful events], one of them is my parents being killed

Then Nagato begins talking about his past

At the height of the Great Ninja War, we had been too late at escaping, so we were hiding at our family's house.
Two ninjas came into our house.

They were searching for some food

Nagato's parents: Nagato, you need to hide.
Then they charge at the two ninja

The ninja: They're enemies.
They kill his parents instantly.
The ninja: There's one more around here.
The ninja search for food
They look at the corpses
The ninja: They were just civilians, huh
The ninja are killed[?]
[Someone?:] Why, in the middle of battle, would you [kill] civilians... Sorry, kiddo

At that moment, lighting strikes outside, and what Nagato sees, is a Konoha headband

Nagato: UWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAH

And then, the Rinnengan is activated

End

[nitteo]

What happened to the rebellion in Konoha?

I think while Naruto is talking, Konoha is gonna have a Civil War.

[Souten no Seigyoku]

This is sounding more and more like an anti-war thing that's rolling with the times

"cant forgive him for for what he did" (911)
"I want to talk" (current obamaien sentiment)

good god. Cant Kish make a manga w/o trying to mix political views into it?
In fact, isnt that one of the rules in this forum? How am I supposed to follow them if the manga we discuss is laced with political views?

[CubeE]

Is it just me, or is Naruto in sage mode again at the end of the episode?